Identity Cards

[Domh245]

What are the proven benefits for the introduction of some form of ID card? If they are of such enormous benefit, then they should be issued free-of-charge.

If the Tories want to continue to roll out voter ID laws, then not disenfranchising voters is a fairly important benefit. Although of course the Tories might not see it that way

 

[najaB]

Why should I have to prove who I am to any person that asks?

For exactly the same reasons you might need to do so today. Just with a single, universally accepted form of ID rather than the current mish-mash.

The majority of current-western democracies have gone through many more excursions into police state territory than the British.

Which, of course, was directly and solely due to their having ID cards.

 

[HSTEd]

Which, of course, was directly and solely due to their having ID cards.

I didn't say that - all I stated was that current Western Democracies have had rather more excursions into police state territory than the British.
This implies they are likely not really a good candidate for learning when it comes to the protection of civil liberties.

The fact that the majority of them have ID cards is an interesting factor but I doubt it is causative.

 

[najaB]

This implies they are likely not really a good candidate for learning when it comes to the protection of civil liberties.

You are seeing an implication that simply doesn't exist. There are countries that have infringed (and continue to infringe) on personal liberties without needing compulsory ID (the USA being a good example), equally there are countries which have very high degrees of personal liberty yet have universal ID.

The fact that the majority of them have ID cards is an interesting factor but I doubt it is causative.

Hence I can't see any relevance other than as an appeal to emotion.

 

[Lucan]

27% of the eligible population do not have a driving licence .. 17% of the population ... do not have a passport. How much overlap there is between the 27% and 17% groups ... I guess they are not entirely separate.

I guess that there is high correlation too. Funny, I thought you were starting to argue in favour of ID cards there, because of the fact that many people have no other easy way to prove their ID, but somehow you then did a logical somersault.

So somewhere between 27% and 44% of the population would be required to obtain this new ID document.... Just for the satisfaction of someone's obsession with knowing who absolutely everyone is.

You are not going to escape people wanting to be satisfied as to who you are, ID card or no ID card. In my recent experience there have been banks, a doctor's practice, a landlord, and a dealer I was buying a car from.

What are the proven benefits for the introduction of some form of ID card? If they are of such enormous benefit, then they should be issued free-of-charge.

I am totally and utterly p****ssed off with having to prove my identity with wads of utility bills, bank statements, birth certificates, driving licences, photos and statements signed by solicitors (have you any idea what that costs? or even a judge for hecks sake), and anything else that entities such as building societies whimsically think might satisfy them (and change their mind when you are at the counter). The benefit would be to replace that lot with a single card with the legal force that it will be all that is required. An ID card would reveal less information to those "authorities" than things like bank statements (I really would rather eg my landord did not get to peruse my bank statements). In fact the current situation allows these "authorities" to be more obsessed with nosiness than an ID card would allow them to be. And yes, ID cards should be free.

Why should I have to prove who I am to any person that asks?

It is not "any person that asks", it is things like banks or potential landlords that ask. If you don't want or cannot prove who you are, then very simply you can't and don't open the bank account or rent the flat - and that is a fact whether we live in an ID card society or not.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For exactly the same reasons you might need to do so today. Just with a single, universally accepted form of ID rather than the current mish-mash.

There are very few instances where I am legally obliged to provide my identity at present in order to receive a service. In some cases products are 'age restricted' but I am well past any of those - unless older people are not allowed to buy certain items because of their age!

Existence of compulsory ID (carried or not) will establish a mindset that anyone and everyone is allowed to ask to see it to perform even the most mundane of tasks. A kind of mission creep. Buying (and/or using) an international travel ticket, fair enough, terrorism exists and targets those sectors. How about buying a long distance domestic travel ticket - think HS2? How about buying a local domestic travel ticket? How about even enquiring about a local domestic travel ticket?

The Facebook generation seem quite keen to give away every aspect of their personal data and expectation of privacy. I am not one of those. Even if the use is not 'sinister' or 'joined up' across many organisations. I went to Staples the other day for some self-adhesive labels. They wanted my contact details (for marketing purposes when I enquired why), I refused. Just think how much easier it would be if they could swipe a National ID card and harvest some key details to bombard me with their pointless marketing. You have just bought some labels, here are daily adverts because we are so dim we think you will want to buy more labels every day for the next 3 months! Hey, guess what, I bought what I needed when I was in your store!

Does it really matter who is buying your products or using your services?

As an aside, I recently completed a 'lasting financial power of attorney' for a relative - the ID requirement being, literally, an 'X' in the box, not even a real signature is required! Must remember to use 'X' next time though and not 'Y' or 'Z'.

Again, what are the measurable benefits of a National ID scheme.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I guess that there is high correlation too. Funny, I thought you were starting to argue in favour of ID cards there, because of the fact that many people have no other easy way to prove their ID, but somehow you then did a logical somersault.

The fact that large numbers of people already have (not necessarily carry at all times) ID seems to be the main reason for extending that facility to everyone - regardless of practical need. I was evidencing the point that there is a large proportion of the population who cannot currently prove their identity, satisfactorily, if a photo ID is the only accepted form of ID. I guess that is a large part of the 'Windrush' issue. People who have had no need to drive or travel abroad so have never gone through the need to obtain the key documents.

A large proportion of those who do not have driving licences are also in lower income groups - precisely those who would find the need to purchase a passport (and its associated costs such as paying your GP to witness your forms etc) an unnecessary burden. But who cares, that's their problem, so long as it makes it easier for the newsagent to confirm your ID when you buy your copy of Charlie Hebdo.

I can't prove who I am but seem to manage. There will come a point when I will fail to achieve something because of that lack of photo ID. Death of a family member probably being the most likely if I am responsible for sorting out their affairs. A bank (which employs someone called Howard) once refused to close a fixed-term savings account because they couldn't match the signatures between my opening form and closing form (I think they really wanted to get me into a branch to force their financial advisors on me to try and sell me some poor quality product). Oh no. So I simply went on-line, transferred the money, and closed the account. Joined up thinking at its best!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am totally and utterly p****ssed off with having to prove my identity with wads of utility bills, bank statements, birth certificates, driving licences, photos and statements signed by solicitors (have you any idea what that costs? or even a judge for hecks sake), and anything else that entities such as building societies whimsically think might satisfy them (and change their mind when you are at the counter). The benefit would be to replace that lot with a single card with the legal force that it will be all that is required. An ID card would reveal less information to those "authorities" than things like bank statements (I really would rather eg my landord did not get to peruse my bank statements). In fact the current situation allows these "authorities" to be more obsessed with nosiness than an ID card would allow them to be.

Open a new bank account and use it for a single, utterly boring, transaction - or arrange a month with minimal transactions - always best to have more than one current account anyway. Was the landlord interested in proving your ID, your wealth to determine whether you were likely to pay the rent, or was he a crook intent on selling your data to his mates so they could steal your identity?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The benefit would be to replace that lot with a single card with the legal force that it will be all that is required. An ID card would reveal less information to those "authorities" than things like bank statements (I really would rather eg my landord did not get to peruse my bank statements).

Your landlord was asking for bank statements to ensure you could afford the rent. That's not going to go anywhere at all. Any company entering into a financial transaction with you wants to know it won't get stiffed.

So in this situation, you'd be swapping providing a bank statement as proof of ID and proof of income with an ID card for proof of ID and, er, a bank statement for proof of income.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your landlord was asking for bank statements to ensure you could afford the rent. That's not going to go anywhere at all. Any company entering into a financial transaction with you wants to know it won't get stiffed.

So in this situation, you'd be swapping providing a bank statement as proof of ID and proof of income with an ID card for proof of ID and, er, a bank statement for proof of income.

Though often bank statements aren't accepted for ID if they're printed from online. Which is the big upcoming problem.

For an enhanced DBS check for instance I can do passport, driving licence and original birth certificate (goodness knows why the latter is seen as ID). However if I lost the ability to drive e.g. for medical reasons or mislaid my birth certificate (copies issued later aren't valid for Group 1 documents as they are really easy to obtain) that would leave me with being able to do it only for two months of the year after my Council Tax statement is produced.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Though often bank statements aren't accepted for ID if they're printed from online. Which is the big upcoming problem.

For an enhanced DBS check for instance I can do passport, driving licence and original birth certificate (goodness knows why the latter is seen as ID). However if I lost the ability to drive e.g. for medical reasons or mislaid my birth certificate (copies issued later aren't valid for Group 1 documents as they are really easy to obtain) that would leave me with being able to do it only for two months of the year after my Council Tax statement is produced.

Birth Certificate needs to be accepted because that is all some of us actually have! Survivors of Grenfell Tower (or similar complete-loss house fires) will no longer even have those. Stateless and identityless in the modern world. Presumably they would also have lost their compulsory photo ID as well, unless that is the one thing they ensured they took out of the building with them. Time for us all to be micro-chipped.

And your council tax statement proves what, exactly? That at some point in the past, a person filled in a form from the council (when they moved into the house) and referred to themselves as 'Bletchleyite'. Other than the need to supply a 'previous address' I could transfer my council tax tomorrow from 'Baxenden Bank' to 'Lickey Incline' - would the council give a damn, so long as I wasn't claiming benefits? One house, one council tax payer (preferably two to avoid having to give single person discount), one happy council tax department. Similarly I could wait until October and fill in my electoral registration form as 'Lickey Incline'. It would correspond with my council tax account so no problems there. After a short while I would appear in credit reference agencies records as 'Lickey Incline' at that address, so I can start getting at least basic credit/banking facilities.

 

[AM9]

... And your council tax statement proves what, exactly? That at some point in the past, a person filled in a form from the council (when they moved into the house) and referred to themselves as 'Bletchleyite'. Other than the need to supply a 'previous address' I could transfer my council tax tomorrow from 'Baxenden Bank' to 'Lickey Incline' - would the council give a damn, so long as I wasn't claiming benefits? One house, one council tax payer (preferably two to avoid having to give single person discount), one happy council tax department. Similarly I could wait until October and fill in my electoral registration form as 'Lickey Incline'. It would correspond with my council tax account so no problems there. After a short while I would appear in credit reference agencies records as 'Lickey Incline' at that address, so I can start getting at least basic credit/banking facilities.

Not everybody is prepared to descend that slippery slope.

 

[najaB]

There are very few instances where I am legally obliged to provide my identity at present in order to receive a service. In some cases products are 'age restricted' but I am well past any of those - unless older people are not allowed to buy certain items because of their age!

I'm glad that your personal circumstances can be extended to 100% of the UK population. That makes things significantly simpler.

 

[krus_aragon]

Not everybody is prepared to descend that slippery slope.

Just use your sander, you'll be fine!

 

[Bromley boy]

Just use your sander, you'll be fine!

If it’s working .

 

[WelshBluebird]

And why is it John Smith's duty to be able to prove (with state approved documentation) that he is who he claims to be?

Because:

• Some goods are age restricted and so the retailer needs to know you are older than x age.
• For some services (e.g. banking) - the service provider has to be able to know you are who you say you are. A single state provided ID would make this so much easier, for both the consumer and the provider.

And I've been using a provisional driving licence for ID for the last decade, until I finally passed my test at the fourth attempt!

Some people can't get a provisional though.

But thats where I said should be improved....now admittedly I don't know what it would take but a drivers license is just a bit of plastic and retailers are happy to accept those.

The difference is the fact that the driving licence is state issued. Same as a passport. And so is trusted more than a bit of plastic from a private company that anyone can get.

Don't think anyone can or will argue against the need to identify yourself in certain situations...but why on earth would you wan't a law (and that is what compulsory carry ID amounts to) that states you need to have ID to do simple things like heading to the shops, going out for a run, bike ride or just simply reading a book in the park?

I have a drivers license, why do I need a separate ID card to do those things you suggest?
If I am not doing those things, why do I need to carry ID?

Because some people cannot get a drivers license.

Anyway we are not talking about needing ID to read a book in the park. Or at least most of us aren't (look at the poll results, most people are not saying you should have to be able to produce it on demand).

 

[Strat-tastic]

Similarly I could wait until October and fill in my electoral registration form as 'Lickey Incline'. It would correspond with my council tax account so no problems there. After a short while I would appear in credit reference agencies records as 'Lickey Incline' at that address, so I can start getting at least basic credit/banking facilities.

Lickey Incline already has banking facilities

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Lickey Incline already has banking facilities

That I like. Did it have to prove itself as the real thing and not an imposter?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If you're a legal resident of this country you already have an identity card. It's your NHS card. It has a unique identifying number.

What's an NHS card?
I have never seen one, nor been issued one.

I have no idea what my NHS number is and have never been required to present it to anyone.

After an intial worry where it was, I have found mine.

A simple piece of card bearing my name, address, date of birth, GP details.

Plus the words:

This is your NHS medical card
Please keep it in a safe place.
It is proof that you are entitled to NHS treatment.
Your NHS number is xxx xxx xxxx

Given the date of issue, it must have been sent when I registered with my current GP.

 

[Strat-tastic]

That I like. Did it have to prove itself as the real thing and not an imposter?

It proved rather tricky. 'Twas an uphill struggle.

OK I'll get me coat

 

[cjp]

any idea that further erodes our hard fought for freedoms[/B] deserves to be strangled at birth.
"EM2, post: 3445257, member: 3048"]How does this idea do that?

It removes the freedom to be impulsive and carefree..

If i want to pop out with no form of Id in shorts and Tee shirt I can.
I am a great believer in money rather than credit cards.
I ride a bicycle without helmet most days. I wear a seat belt as the law demands but there again I did anyway before it became a law - my choice.

ID cards are catering to bureaucracy and the people with some power who want you to be labelled and numbered in their database rather than an individual.
Another potential restriction on British freedoms bought about by a few bad eggs.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I have dug deeper and found some statistics on availability of photo-ID.

As part of their work around voter ID fraud The Electoral Commission produced a report on the options available and issues surrounding requiring photo ID at polling stations.

Approximately 3.5m electors (7.5% of the electorate) would have none of the forms of photo ID highlighted below, i.e. 92.5% of electors would already have at least one form of acceptable photo ID.

1. photographic driving licence
2. passport
3. Proof of Age Standards Scheme (PASS) card,
4. military identification card
5. police identification card
6. firearms licence
7. Certain photographic public transport passes, including certain concessionary travel passes – could be added this list. Both the Freedom Pass and Oyster Photocard, for example, require verification of the person’s identity before they are issued.

Reducing that list to passports, photographic driving licences and Oyster Photocards only means 6m electors (13% of the electorate) would have no photo ID.

Reducing that list to passports and photographic driving licences only would see potentially 11m electors (24% of the electorate), without acceptable ID;

The report concludes that there should be a system similar to that in operation in Northern Ireland where those without acceptable photo ID can apply for an Electoral Identity Card which is completely free of charge.

 

[najaB]

Thanks. The issue with multiple forms of ID (up to 7 as above) is that it becomes harder for people to recognise them, and also harder for them to detect fakes.

 

[Lucan]

92.5% of electors would already have at least one form of acceptable photo ID.
[Lists seven forms of photo ID]

In my experience, authorities requiring proof of identity are not content with just one of those seven; they want a whole wad of.stuff more So the 92.5% figure is not so meaningful.

 

[fowler9]

Don't see the point in them if you don't have to to have them with you all the time. I wouldn't like that so no from me.

 

[etr221]

Thanks. The issue with multiple forms of ID (up to 7 as above) is that it becomes harder for people to recognise them, and also harder for them to detect fakes.

When the requirement for landlords to check immigrants' 'right to rent' came in I saw a piece listing something like eighty ID type documents that would demonstrate such right... (This included documents from countries whose nationals had the right)

 

[najaB]

Digging this thread up as the topic's been raised again. I still think it makes sense for everyone to be issued an ID card at age 16 that contains, at the least, your name, photograph and date/place of birth along with a unique number. Authorised people/systems should then be able to look up the number and see if the data matches.

This can then be exchanged for a full driving licence photocard after you pass your test.

 

[cjp]

Makes sense for what or for whom.
I am myself not a cipher in Big Brother's system.

Next identity chips inserves at birth. Microchips like dogs.

Bah.

 

[Mag_seven]

the topic's been raised again

Where has it been raised again?

 

[najaB]

Makes sense for what or for whom.
I am myself not a cipher in Big Brother's system.

It makes sense in all the other countries in the world where ID cards are universal and yet have somehow not turned into dystopian wastelands.

I grew up in one such country. You apply for an ID card at 16 years old (minors cards are available which don't have a picture).

The card has your national registration number which is also your national insurance number. You want to open a bank account - no problem, what's your registration number. Apply for a passport? No problem, what's your registration number? Buy age-restricted products? No problem, you got your ID card? Get stopped by the police and they have legal reason to determine your identity? Don't have you ID on you? Not a problem, quote your registration number and they can look it up. Can't remember your number? Still no problem, give name and address and present yourself at the police station within two days. Want to vote? No ID card? Hmm that might be a problem.

In short it makes day to day transactions simpler as there's a single, easily recognisable, universal form of ID that places no financial burden on the citizen, and if you fail to carry it you've inconvenienced nobody except yourself.