IEP bandwagon of hate?

[swt_passenger]

I've yet to experience the class 800 myself, but the seats seem to be winning praise, particularly for their pitch...

Ever since the DfT specifications first entered the public domain it has been pretty clear that as long as the spec was actually followed the seat pitch would be adequate. Oddly enough, that never stopped people complaining about it, because the DfT spec didn't fit the pre-judged rants.
Similarly with the ratio of table bays to airline seating - even when photos were posted on here showing the as built layout, with more tables than the typical FGW HST, we still had people complaining that there would be fewer tables.

 

[AM9]

What a self-fulfilling discussion this is...

It's often the case. The main class 800 thread has been infested with this for 3 1/2 years, including absolute criticism of features months before they were even in the UK, - that couldn't be known before actually travelling on them .

 

[route101]

Only a few TOCs offer a seat selector, and I'm not sure any of those show window layout.

If it was done properly I'd pay extra for that.

Suprised GWR dont do the seat selector yet . That said the seats and tables seem to align with windows pretty well though ive seen on videos theres some seats near the doors that dont have a window

 

[doa46231]

I have not travelled in a class 800. I have not sat in the seat. But I look at the reports and photos and videos, and I ask, does this train display the advances it should over a 40 year old HST?
Compare a 40 year old car with one built today, and the improvements are vast, in performance, comfort, safety and ease of driving.
Is the 800 more comfortable than an HST: and I'm talking about when they were originally introduced, not now they've been ruined by so called 'refurbishments'?
Anyone who remembers the HST's being introduced will agree that they were a huge advance on anything that went before on Britain's railways.
Is the 800 any quicker? No, probably the reverse.
Is it more comfortable and is the ambience more friendly: doubtful.
Is it more efficient? Time will tell but the omens are not good.
I look at the video of the interior of the 800 and I think, boring, boring, boring.
There doesn't seem to have been an ounce of imagination used to create an interior which gets away from the long metal tube with as many seats crammed in as possible.
The seats may be OK but would anybody want seats like that in their car?
I'm afraid us Brits are easily satisfied and very few have experienced inter-city trains on the Continent.
In 30 odd years when these trains will still be trundling about, can you imagine what cars will be like?
Probably driverless, electric, extremely safe and supremely comfortable. Do we really believe the class 800 will hack it.
Remember this is our flagship inter-city train. Is it really the best we can expect?

 

[Tyrion]

I have not travelled in a class 800. I have not sat in the seat. But I look at the reports and photos and videos, and I ask, does this train display the advances it should over a 40 year old HST?
Compare a 40 year old car with one built today, and the improvements are vast, in performance, comfort, safety and ease of driving.
Is the 800 more comfortable than an HST: and I'm talking about when they were originally introduced, not now they've been ruined by so called 'refurbishments'?
Anyone who remembers the HST's being introduced will agree that they were a huge advance on anything that went before on Britain's railways.
Is the 800 any quicker? No, probably the reverse.
Is it more comfortable and is the ambience more friendly: doubtful.
Is it more efficient? Time will tell but the omens are not good.
I look at the video of the interior of the 800 and I think, boring, boring, boring.
There doesn't seem to have been an ounce of imagination used to create an interior which gets away from the long metal tube with as many seats crammed in as possible.
The seats may be OK but would anybody want seats like that in their car?
I'm afraid us Brits are easily satisfied and very few have experienced inter-city trains on the Continent.
In 30 odd years when these trains will still be trundling about, can you imagine what cars will be like?
Probably driverless, electric, extremely safe and supremely comfortable. Do we really believe the class 800 will hack it.
Remember this is our flagship inter-city train. Is it really the best we can expect?

Yes, get over it!

 

[Bishopstone]

I have not travelled in a class 800. I have not sat in the seat. But I look at the reports and photos and videos, and I ask, does this train display the advances it should over a 40 year old HST?

With the same budget and remit in terms of capacity, what would you have built?

(Fantasies predicated on an unlimited pot of money are irrelevant.)

 

[DarloRich]

I've yet to experience the class 800 myself, but the seats seem to be winning praise, particularly for their pitch. The buffet now comes to you, so the infirm and those who don't wish to leave (or lug) valuables have access to refreshments.

I'm bemused when enthusiasts, of all people, moan about engine noise, as so many of them bemoaned the loss of loco-hauled thrash and droplights to flail from. Now, suddenly, trains must be silent. On that score, the Thameslink 700s are quieter than the units they have replaced: so progress there.

The buffet comes to you. I wonder for how long. IT doesn't often happen on VTEC anymore. Opps cynicism again.............

 

[Pshambro]

Was it designed by British men in sheds ?
Does it have dedicated power cars or a locomotive at the end(s)?

You have your answer why some people on this forum would never had liked it, regardless of what was actually built.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remember this is our flagship inter-city train. Is it really the best we can expect?

This baton will go to the new HS2 stock when it is specified/ordered around 2019 (by the DfT/HS2 Ltd).
We are promised that it will be "world class".
I think you have to look at 800s as a package. Nothing else has its operational flexibility.
The design is also capable of 140mph and operation on ETCS routes.
You also ignore 300km/h Eurostar trains (373/374) as "flagships", and in terms of squadron domestic service the 390s (125mph with tilt).
Class 800s are inevitably a compromise over a number of service demands, because dedicated sub-fleets (like an HST Mk2) are uneconomic.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

This baton will go to the new HS2 stock when it is specified/ordered around 2019 (by the DfT/HS2 Ltd).
We are promised that it will be "world class".

No surprise. If you were to ask 10 people at random to name a French or Japanese train, I'd bet that at least 8 at the very minimum would say TGV or Bullet Train (Shinkansen). So I imagine that the design of the HS2 train will mean a lot of these IEP haters because the chances are, it won't be a British design, as is the case with pretty much every train nowadays in the UK. What matters most to the passengers though is speed and comfort, so most people who use them won't be bothered about the exterior design so long as they get a seat and some space.

 

[The Ham]

Is the 800 any quicker? No, probably the reverse.

Let's try and evaluate which is faster, here's a starting list:

- In a drag race on the GWML where the wires are the 80x's will win hands down.
- Off the wires most of the 80x fleet will be limited to 100mph, yet the going to be very few sections where any train could travel faster than 100mph anyway. With most of these sections likely to see 802's which should be able to get to 125mph anyway.
- However in the real world, even off the wires, without the risk of doors being left open the 80x's will probably win again if it is running late and trying to make up time.
- Finally with a theoretical top speed of 140mph (with in cab signalling) that's more than even the maximum speed ever recorded by a HST.

Therefore of the above four measures the 80x's clearly win against the HST's on speed on two, with one being a fine line but probably result in a minor win to the the 80x's with the remaining one being a draw between the HST's and 802's but with the rest of the 80x's just being beaten into second place on a few pieces of track but mostly making no difference.

Were there any other measures by which we should be comparing the two to determine which is faster by which you came to your conclusion? As on the above I would suggest that the 80x's are winning with the 802's just edging out. However I am willing to understand how you came to your conclusion and will review my answer if there's a good reason or reasons that I've missed.

 

[Darandio]

- Finally with a theoretical top speed of 140mph (with in cab signalling) that's more than even the maximum speed ever recorded by a HST.

Ahem

On 27 September 1985, a special press run for the launch of a new Tees-Tyne Pullman service from Newcastle to London King's Cross, formed of a shortened 2+5 set, briefly touched 144 mph (232 km/h) north of York. The world record for the fastest diesel-powered train, a speed of 148 mph (238 km/h), was set by an HST on 1 November 1987, while descending Stoke Bank with a test run for a new type of bogie, later to be used under the Mark 4 coaches on the same route.

I assume you meant in regular service?

 

[47802]

I have not travelled in a class 800. I have not sat in the seat. But I look at the reports and photos and videos, and I ask, does this train display the advances it should over a 40 year old HST?
Compare a 40 year old car with one built today, and the improvements are vast, in performance, comfort, safety and ease of driving.
Is the 800 more comfortable than an HST: and I'm talking about when they were originally introduced, not now they've been ruined by so called 'refurbishments'?
Anyone who remembers the HST's being introduced will agree that they were a huge advance on anything that went before on Britain's railways.
Is the 800 any quicker? No, probably the reverse.
Is it more comfortable and is the ambience more friendly: doubtful.
Is it more efficient? Time will tell but the omens are not good.
I look at the video of the interior of the 800 and I think, boring, boring, boring.
There doesn't seem to have been an ounce of imagination used to create an interior which gets away from the long metal tube with as many seats crammed in as possible.
The seats may be OK but would anybody want seats like that in their car?
I'm afraid us Brits are easily satisfied and very few have experienced inter-city trains on the Continent.
In 30 odd years when these trains will still be trundling about, can you imagine what cars will be like?
Probably driverless, electric, extremely safe and supremely comfortable. Do we really believe the class 800 will hack it.
Remember this is our flagship inter-city train. Is it really the best we can expect?

Last continental Intercity train I was on I ended up sat on longitudinal seats for a 4 hour journey from Paris to Zurich on a TGV, not impressed

Yes HST's were a significant jump in performance but you cannot always do that all the time, IET is Diesel and Electric, has better performance on electric than HST and a higher top speed if they sort the signalling out in future and is nearly as good on diesel as a HST therefore that's where the leap forward is in my view

 

[greyman42]

Also how fast would the IC125's be if they had 9,10 or 11 coaches? The more coaches you add the slower it will go. Meaning that some sections of 125mph may only see (for instance) 115mph running. You would also see trains having problems (especially on steep slopes) of one loco failed.

VTEC HSTs do have 9 coaches. They do 125 mph.

 

[trainmania100]

At the end of the day, the trains are business assets for train operating companies
They're not built to satisfy the rail enthusiast community, but to rather provide commuters with better and improved transport services.
It's going to be said for anything new that comes into traffic, it's been said with the 700s, the 345s and now the 800 people cannot accept that change happens, trains are replaced and modernised - something which has been happening since the first train existed.
I see no problems at all with the class 800 to be honest they look rather nice.
However if I were to choose between the old and new I would prefer the class 43 because they are so versatile and their history.
I will certainly miss the 43 on GWML, but all new multiple units are going to be subjected to the bandwagon of hate I'm sure

 

[47802]

At the end of the day, the trains are business assets for train operating companies
They're not built to satisfy the rail enthusiast community, but to rather provide commuters with better and improved transport services.
It's going to be said for anything new that comes into traffic, it's been said with the 700s, the 345s and now the 800 people cannot accept that change happens, trains are replaced and modernised - something which has been happening since the first train existed.
I see no problems at all with the class 800 to be honest they look rather nice.
However if I were to choose between the old and new I would prefer the class 43 because they are so versatile and their history.
I will certainly miss the 43 on GWML, but all new multiple units are going to be subjected to the bandwagon of hate I'm sure

Quite I would ideally like to do London Leeds on a Deltic and Mk2 but its 2017 not 1977. HST have had more than good innings and will be retained on secondary routes.

 

[Harbornite]

But I look at the reports and photos and videos, and I ask, does this train display the advances it should over a 40 year old HST?

Is the 800 any quicker? No, probably the reverse.

Advances? For starters, they won't dump toilet waste on the tracks. Passengers and track workers alike will appreciate the disappearance of the "brown mist". Also, the sliding doors will help to reduce dwell times.

Regarding speeds, this has been discussed in detail on the forum; their acceleration on electric will be better than that of an HST.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suprised GWR dont do the seat selector yet . That said the seats and tables seem to align with windows pretty well though ive seen on videos theres some seats near the doors that dont have a window

The main thing that knackers window alignment is how the priority seat requirement is defined. Rather than it being a minimum seat back to front measurement or pitch, it's a percentage increase over the standard pitch. So you can't just be generous at all seats and mark some as priority seats. As such a Class 158 style layout is no longer possible.

 

[AlexNL]

I'm afraid us Brits are easily satisfied and very few have experienced inter-city trains on the Continent.

What do you expect from intercity trains on the continent? It's not like you get a free backrub when you board one.

Interior design is a matter of style and preference, and is tailored to the area the trains serve. I find that German design tends to be more conservative, French design to be expressive, and Scandinavian design is more... functional. If the class 800 would've been designed for the French market, its interior spec would've been very different.

 

[Thunderer]

I have made two twenty minute journeys now on the class 800 and it really is a lovely train. A quiet and smooth ride. One journey was First Class and the seats in there are well designed and comfortable. My second jouney was in standard class. The seats are well designed and alligned, but unfortunately I found the standard class seats quite hard and I wouldn't like to travel a long distance on these seats. Its a shame there was not a bit more padding on the seat itself, as this is the only critisism I have of the train. I'm sure they will be a success when fully introduced and most of my fellow passangers I was travelling with seem to like them, but like me, they were not fond of the hard seats.

 

[doa46231]

Why is anyone who criticises a train regarded as a hater or ranting.
I dont hate the 800. I simply asked does it seem like a 40 year advance on an HST?
Clearly some of you think it does. Examples given are the toilets are better! Shouldn't they be?
Someone is obsessed with drag racing!
What I asked was are they going to provide shorter journey times?
The answer seems to be 'not much'!
We can argue about a few minutes here or there but basically they are no quicker than trains operating the service 40 years ago.

Whatever else may be said about the Pendolinos, they did provide a step change in performance over what had gone before.
The 800 in my judgement does not.

I dont travel by road coach much, but a couple of weeks ago I used the X5 service from Milton Keynes to Oxford.
It was a fairly new vehicle, coach enthusiasts will know what it was.

I was surprised by how much better it was than a similar journey, some years ago.
The ride was smooth even on our pot-holed roads, the view out was superb from all seats, the seat was comfortable, well padded with ample leg room.
Noise levels were commendably low. The driver helped people with luggage and the fare was low compared to roll-up rail tickets.
Growth in rail travel has slackened off and may go into reverse. Couldn't the uncomfortable trains be something to do with that?

I am still not convinced that in order to carry as many people as possible, the seats have to be hard and uncomfortable, that we have to have seats with a view of plastic instead of a window, that catering has to be hit or miss depending on a trolly.
I am asked what would I design?
People are paid a lot of money to do that job, but something as fundamental as a seat should not be difficult to design.
Do you really think the interior layout is to be admired?

The 800 is supposed to be an inter-city type train.
Shouts of, No, it has to carry commuters, so of course it has to be cramped and uncomfortable.
Isn't that the problem in Britain.
Each train has to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.
I am told that it isn't a flagship train. Well someone ought to tell the DfT.
I've got to wait till HS2 is open. apparently.
One wonders if those trains will be bi-modes, or perhaps hydrogen, as our Minister of Transport seems to believe they are the future.
Watch his performance in front of the Transport Select Committee if you dont believe me; and incidentally that committee is absolutely useless. he was telling them all sorts of rubbish which they accepted without comment.

Our problems stem from the top, aided and abetted by enthusiasts who think anything new is Gods gift to the railway!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody who has posted on here who has been on it has called it "cramped and uncomfortable".

More common words being used are "spacious" and "airy", and also compliment good legroom.

Have you even been on one yet?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We can argue about a few minutes here or there but basically they are no quicker than trains operating the service 40 years ago.

But the route spec has not changed - it is still a 125mph railway.
However the service will change with some frequencies doubling (eg 4tph to Bristol).
Services to destinations off the main line will improve significantly (eg Cheltenham, Worcester).
ETCS will be the next route step change, with improved safety protection, and with the potential for higher route speed/capacity.
Dare I also say the 800s are capable of Driver Only Operation.
They also have remote train and infrastructure monitoring.
The 800s are capable of delivering all this functionality, the HSTs (and 91+Mk4) are not.
Higher speed is not the only holy grail for the operaters.

 

[GlosRail]

I travelled on one today from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff for the first time today.

I didn't look at everything, so I'm sure there will be more things.

More Legroom. I was in standard class airplane style seats, but the seats themselves were more basic with less padding than HST's.
Clocks in each coach, along with station display.
Plugs in the middle of the seats so passengers sat in aisle seats can use them. 2 per seat. HST's had one.
They seemed to have option of a digital seat reservation, but were still using paper tickets in the backs of the seats.
Seat trays seemed fairly small.

However watch out when leaving your seat if sat next to the window as the luggage rack looks fairly low.

Overall I'm quite impressed so far, but will have to see how they stand the test of time.

 

[47802]

Why is anyone who criticises a train regarded as a hater or ranting.
I dont hate the 800. I simply asked does it seem like a 40 year advance on an HST?
Clearly some of you think it does. Examples given are the toilets are better! Shouldn't they be?
Someone is obsessed with drag racing!
What I asked was are they going to provide shorter journey times?
The answer seems to be 'not much'!
We can argue about a few minutes here or there but basically they are no quicker than trains operating the service 40 years ago.

Whatever else may be said about the Pendolinos, they did provide a step change in performance over what had gone before.
The 800 in my judgement does not.

I dont travel by road coach much, but a couple of weeks ago I used the X5 service from Milton Keynes to Oxford.
It was a fairly new vehicle, coach enthusiasts will know what it was.

I was surprised by how much better it was than a similar journey, some years ago.
The ride was smooth even on our pot-holed roads, the view out was superb from all seats, the seat was comfortable, well padded with ample leg room.
Noise levels were commendably low. The driver helped people with luggage and the fare was low compared to roll-up rail tickets.
Growth in rail travel has slackened off and may go into reverse. Couldn't the uncomfortable trains be something to do with that?

I am still not convinced that in order to carry as many people as possible, the seats have to be hard and uncomfortable, that we have to have seats with a view of plastic instead of a window, that catering has to be hit or miss depending on a trolly.
I am asked what would I design?
People are paid a lot of money to do that job, but something as fundamental as a seat should not be difficult to design.
Do you really think the interior layout is to be admired?

The 800 is supposed to be an inter-city type train.
Shouts of, No, it has to carry commuters, so of course it has to be cramped and uncomfortable.
Isn't that the problem in Britain.
Each train has to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.
I am told that it isn't a flagship train. Well someone ought to tell the DfT.
I've got to wait till HS2 is open. apparently.
One wonders if those trains will be bi-modes, or perhaps hydrogen, as our Minister of Transport seems to believe they are the future.
Watch his performance in front of the Transport Select Committee if you dont believe me; and incidentally that committee is absolutely useless. he was telling them all sorts of rubbish which they accepted without comment.

Our problems stem from the top, aided and abetted by enthusiasts who think anything new is Gods gift to the railway!

Well of course the Pendolinos were a step change they were replacing 110mph non tilt trains on a curvy route, although personally I hate the things with their very small windows, exactly what do you want to see from a new IC train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll be honest... while I’ve not been on one yet the 800 looks like it will tick most boxes for me.

 

[aar0]

Aiming here at no one in particular, save perhaps those who DEMAND to know where 40 years have gone...

I happen to own a 1976 car, a 1992 car, and drive cars for my work from 2015 onwards. The difference between 76 and 92 is quite a bit, mainly comfort and noise, plus the ability to get up to speed. Between 92 and 15+ the improvements are much smaller - a better stereo, power windows, cruise control, remote locking. The difference isn't massive. I would suggest a similar thing has happened with trains.

To take this further, the difference between a 1936 car and my 1976 car would be night and day - ditto trains. Ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

 

[47802]

Aiming here at no one in particular, save perhaps those who DEMAND to know where 40 years have gone...

I happen to own a 1976 car, a 1992 car, and drive cars for my work from 2015 onwards. The difference between 76 and 92 is quite a bit, mainly comfort and noise, plus the ability to get up to speed. Between 92 and 15+ the improvements are much smaller - a better stereo, power windows, cruise control, remote locking. The difference isn't massive. I would suggest a similar thing has happened with trains.

To take this further, the difference between a 1936 car and my 1976 car would be night and day - ditto trains. Ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

Indeed If I compare my 1990 Rover 200 with my 2015 Vauxhall Astra its not a massive difference passenger comfort wise, but then if I think back to the 1966 Ford Cortina that my Dad had its quite a difference.

Aircon made a significant difference to IC train travel in the 70's and OK todays Aircon my be more reliable and more effective, but at the end of the day Aircon is Aircon what more can you do with it?

 

[Mainline421]

Ridiculous how almost everyone criticising the IETs hasn't even been on one yet! As someone who has caught one, I can safely say I was expecting not to like them, but they're excellent trains. They are not "cramped" at all, there is actually more leg room in standard class! People just want to dislike them because they're replacing the HST which were perhaps the best trains in the UK but the IETs are more than worthy successors. The standard class seats are firm, but yet are still very comfortable for a journey of well over an hour. There's plenty of leg room, good air quality, really quiet engines, smooth ride, good view out windows etc. Most people here just are just high memberberries and have a nostalgic attachment to HSTs which I do to an extent, but it's not as if any replacemnets were going to have droplights unfortunately (which is only really an issue for enthusiast) so the only real downgrade is the lack of a buffet. I think Mag_seven summaised it best:

Its just like music - the father always says to the son "call that music". When the son grows up and has children he will say to them "call that music" and so it goes on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aircon made a significant difference to IC train travel in the 70's and OK todays Aircon my be more reliable and more effective, but at the end of the day Aircon is Aircon what more can you do with it?

An innovation I'd like to see is the railway looking at full climate control (i.e. circulating air at a precise temperature from vents around the vehicle both high and low, and getting rid of the radiator conduit) rather than classic aircon/air cooling (cooking your ankles and freezing the top of your head).