IEP - bi modes and electrics

[Zoe]

However arent HST's desiel electric? Maybe sticking a panto could be a good way of cutting operating costs if desiel gets expensive?

Even better, put a pantograph on one of the coaches.

 

[sprinterguy]

However arent HST's desiel electric? Maybe sticking a panto could be a good way of cutting operating costs if desiel gets expensive?

I’m not sure there’d be space for the transformer and associated electrical gubbins in the open space made up of the guards’ van, not to mention whether the increase in axle weight would be acceptable. They’re getting on a bit now as well.

 

[Zoe]

They’re getting on a bit now as well.

Considering the fact that they may remain in service for another 25 years, I wouldn't exactly call them old.

 

[sprinterguy]

Even better, put a pantograph on one of the coaches.

The battery powered HST power car used a similar set up, with the batteries located in a converted TGS coach feeding the power through to the power car. I’ve never heard how successful the battery trials were, but it does prove that the traction motors of an HST power car can be electrically driven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Considering the fact that they may remain in service for another 25 years, I wouldn't exactly call them old.

I would. 35 years for the oldest production power car is a respectable age for a diesel locomotive on the railways, especially one that has remained in front line service doing exactly the same demanding job throughout that time, even with three new handles and five new blades. In 25 years they’ll just be ancient.

 

[anthony263]

How much more does a tiliting train vehicle cost than a normal one? Infrastrure wise, the only cost should be that of the electrification (unlike Pendos, APT didn't use a tilt-athorisation system did it? so perhaps such a system wouldn't be needed on the routes in question). Costpeed benifit wise, I think you may be right in that, once IC125s are gone, wiring via Bristol and sending everything that way would be better. However, might you not also have to quadruple sections of the Reading to Taunton via Bristol route to provide sufficient capacity for all the services on the route?



I think alot of Cardiff - Swansea (Cardiff to somewhere between Port Talbot and Neath) can probablly take 100mph anyway. Without adding to the frequency to allow some London trains to ommit Bridgend, Port Talbot and Neath there's not going to be much in the way of time savings there. I'd be supprised if the trains would really have space to accelerate beyond 100mph without missing those stations out.

The line from Port Talbot Parkway to just before Briton Ferry station can easily be increased to 100 mph that suntil you get to the curve near the entrance to thebaglan exchange siding's

 

[Nym]

However arent HST's desiel electric? Maybe sticking a panto could be a good way of cutting operating costs if desiel gets expensive?

HSTs are the wrong type of Diesel Electric and would take a hell of a lot of work to convert, unlike the 22x series, the only type easy to convert.

If you want a more detailed explanation let me know and I'll either PM or post, but I won't bore everyone now.

 

[Yew]

HSTs are the wrong type of Diesel Electric and would take a hell of a lot of work to convert, unlike the 22x series, the only type easy to convert.

If you want a more detailed explanation let me know and I'll either PM or post, but I won't bore everyone now.

Im guessing somthing to do with the three phase power supply?

 

[LexyBoy]

HSTs are the wrong type of Diesel Electric and would take a hell of a lot of work to convert, unlike the 22x series, the only type easy to convert.

If you want a more detailed explanation let me know and I'll either PM or post, but I won't bore everyone now.

I'd be interested (though probably won't understand ). Did the Hitachi hybrid experiment completely replace the electrical systems?

I can't see the HSTs having such a big refurbishment done anyway, they've already been re-engined and refurbished recently. I'd think that such a big job would be unjustifiable compared to the cost of a new fleet given the comparative lifespans (and the fact that more capacity is needed too).

 

[DarloRich]

(please don't get into an argument about swapping locos at Swansea so Pembroke Dock can get 225s - realistically loco-swaps are too much hassle for TOCs)

but it shouldnt be should it!

carting about a tank full of fuel and an engine you will only use for a bit of the journey just seems madness. Surely better to swap the electric off at the end of the wires and whack a diesel on the front.

I just dont see the point in bi mode stuff when there are perfectly good existing ways of opperatind a "dual mode" haulage system!

 

[Nym]

Im guessing somthing to do with the three phase power supply?

3 phase supply to the carrages at 415v, not really no, thats more of an ETH issue.

I'd be interested (though probably won't understand ). Did the Hitachi hybrid experiment completely replace the electrical systems?

And yes, Hitachi installed a completely new control system to operate the HST as a hybrid.

I can only do the short explanation now, but here goes...

HSTs, 66s, 59s, almost every Diesel Electric Locomotive does not have a power electronics control system that can take a standard supply, this also depends on the traction motors.

Best way to show this would be a simple block diagram, arrows show the direction of power flow (in traditional terms) brackets indicate potential additions that potentially aren't nessesarry, dependant on the configuration.

Engine ---> Syncronous / Induction / DC Generator ---> (Transformer) ---> (Tyistor Phase Controller) ---> Traction Motor

Basically the engine raises a voltage across the motor directly controlled by the speed of the generator's prime mover (the voltage), and the EMF of the traction motor's prime mover is somtimes, and somtimes not raised back, as less current is transfered (as less traction effort is needed) the prime mover of the generator can slow.

Basically: The speed of the generator = rate of accelaration of the prime mover (less resistive forces etc).

For the 22x series it's quite diferent.

The traction control package is completly seperate from the generator package, in that it uses a contol loop to determine how much power is needed, and optimises the onboard generators (or transformers for potential ED operation) to determine how much power is needed from said generators.

This system is much more complicated, but much more robust, as an engine isn't mated to a spesific traction package. But the way traction is applied in a 22x is by:

Driver requests notch x
Traction systems attempt to draw power from bus bar (in reality a 3 phase system)
Generator controller detects a requested draw from bus bar (phase shift in the system)
Generator increases the power being provided, by whatever means.
Traction system gets required power
Train speeds up

This is somthing you will have noticed if you listen to the engine speeds at departure of HSTs and Locos compared to the 22x series.

At lower speeds (but not startup speed), the driver can have the higher notches without full power from the engine, due to much less dynamic friction at low speed, where as in an HST to get full power to the traction package, you need full revs (although again, maybe not nessesarry)

This is also the reason for a shunt ammeter in the older diesel electric locomotives, it is possible to generate too much for the traction motror when standing still, as there is no back emf to counter the forward emf of the generator there can be too much current flowing.

Because of the way the 22x traction system works, the tracktion packages don't care where their amps come from, beit a transformer, or diesel generator, or gas turbine generator, or onboard nuclear plant. It just doesn't care, amps is amps; so new generator cars can have any engine, and transformer cars can be slotted in, and provided the busbar network can take it, (hence needing one near each end with a HV bar across the top) then it's easy to make a 22x into an electro-diesel

Working roughly on the size of the cables etc.

4car - 5car is just possible, but the panto car would need to be dead centre
5car - 6car isn't, too much voltage drop across the cables, would need two, hence:
5car - 7car is possible, inserting a panto/transformer one or two cars in from each end, proberbly two, with a HT bar across the central carrages so only one panto is to be raised.
7 car, well this is a 50/50 really, it could just manage at 9 car with two panto/trans units, but would be much better if one of the diesels was donated to a 5 car unit, and extended to 9 carraged. becoming 6car - 8car, twice.

or 7car - 10car...

OK, yes that is the quick explanation, hope it makes some sense.

 

[OxtedL]

Pure genius. I can't see why they haven't already done it...

 

[Nym]

Bombardier completed a feasability studdy and stated that the new units could be built at derby within 10 months IIRC

 

[OxtedL]

If, for instance, they could get wires as far as Leicester, it would be instantly worth it, surely...

 

[Nym]

Personally, I'd be doing this to the whole 22x fleet, and electrifying all the midland mainline, then they have new electrics, and the 222s get cascaded somwhere else that needs them (XC, ICEC, ICGW)

In the inital instance there isn't one TOC it wouldn't benifit (that currently operate 22x services), asside from EMT, not really useful for the short hop to Bedford, but if the MML where on a rolling electrification program, very helpful indeed.

XC and ICWC are ideal candidates for these EDMUs as converted.

Although if the god forsaken IEP programme continues, XC could use IEPs in their fleet (the ED type, doubled up if needed), and release the 221s (electrodieselified) to ICWC (The operator that NEEDS tilting stock for it's LDPE services). To then operate more off wires services. and/or stupidly long trains.

I'm not going to rant on again about how the Bi-Mode IEP isn't nessesarry if four simple things are done instead.

Electrify the MML & Crewe - Chester

Order 20 more 390s for VT, aswell as some new locomotives for hauling them off wire, or stick with 57s in the mean time.

Electric IEP for the Midland Mainline and GWML services to Bristol & Cardiff

Displaced 222s Electrodiselified for the off wire services on the GWML, aswell as 220s/221s if needed.

Then:

Continuing program of electrification for the XC network, Oxford - Birmingham to make Manchester - Reading operated by Electric IEP, displacing 220/221 for operation of other services, in electrodiesel mode.

Wires from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, all but one EC operation is now all electric, the off wire service either loco hauled or operated by a 22x series electrodiesel unit.

 

[OxtedL]

I think this whole idea shows just how good a base design the 22x is, particularly given the awesome reliability the maintenance guys achieve with them.

You will want a third rail pick up on your pantograph cars for XC...? Easy to do? Shame you can't do it on the 171s .

 

[tbtc]

I think this whole idea shows just how good a base design the 22x is, particularly given the awesome reliability the maintenance guys achieve with them.

You will want a third rail pick up on your pantograph cars for XC...? Easy to do? Shame you can't do it on the 171s .

Interesting idea about the 171s.

And I agree that the 22xs are a good template, mechanically

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

OK, yes that is the quick explanation, hope it makes some sense.

What a splendid and insightful post. Many thanks Nym.
I hope DfT manage to read it.

I look forward to seeing 7-car Voyagers (ie 5 plus 2 panto cars) one day!

Only makes sense if the whole fleet is done.
How keen are the 22x operators to do it?
The opportunity is surely the new WCML franchise, where rolling stock will be up to the bidders.

Am I right in thinking Virgin Group owns the trains (through Voyager Leasing)?
Or is it some faceless bank?

 

[OxtedL]

I wish they could do it with 171s, but unfortunately, they're not DEMUs...

I think one major point of caution about the pantograph cars is that they have the potential to screw with reliabilty, at least for a while. Obviously not a good reason to abandon them, and I am totally for them.

EDIT: Just going to slip this link in... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmtran/writev/economy/te89.htm

 

[sprinterguy]

Am I right in thinking Virgin Group owns the trains (through Voyager Leasing)?
Or is it some faceless bank?

Voyager Leasing is, as far as I am aware, a partnership between Angel Trains and Lloyds Bank.
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For the Crosscountry routes that are partially electrified, the EDMU concept has a lot of merit. However for the West Coast fleet, it would be far better to see more Pendolinos ordered, coupled with infill electrification from Crewe to Chester, displacing the Voyagers to Crosscountry. It would be considerably better than nothing though if the West Coast Voyagers were fitted with pantograph cars as an interim measure (At least they’d be powered by the juice and would have two extra carriages) until additional Pendolinos could be ordered, to allow the Voyagers to join the standard XC fleet which would also already have panto cars by that point. In short, it makes sense to do all the 22X fleets at the same time.

 

[Zoe]

additional Pendolinos could be ordered, to allow the Voyagers to join the standard XC fleet which would also already have panto cars by that point. In short, it makes sense to do all the 22X fleets at the same time.

It's possible that Voyagers could be cascaded to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to allow earlier retirement of HSTs.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's possible that Voyagers could be cascaded to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to allow earlier retirement of HSTs.

I hope not, Crosscountry really need the additional Voyagers, especially if passenger numbers continue to climb. They’ve got five HSTs of their own, which makes for a very small non-standard fleet, which they’ll have to get rid of at some point (Not that I want to see them go).

It would be better to see the MML electrified by 2025/2030 and the Meridians moved over to replace FGWs remaining HSTs on the South West services (At about the time they’ll be due a big mid-life overhaul and refurb), with a new fleet of electric IEPs on the MML.

 

[Zoe]

It would be better to see the MML electrified by 2025/2030 and the Meridians moved over to replace FGWs remaining HSTs on the South West services (At about the time they’ll be due a big mid-life overhaul and refurb), with a new fleet of electric IEPs on the MML.

Or you could just add pantograph cars the the 222s and keep them on the MML. If you are going to electrify the MML though I'd also electrify Bristol to Plymouth so that almost all intercity services can go over the EMU operation. There may not be a business case for it now but a lot can change in 15 years. As for just cascading Voygares to the Paddington to Penzance route, I wouldn't put that beyond the dft.

 

[sprinterguy]

As for just cascading Voygares to the Paddington to Penzance route, I wouldn't put that beyond the dft.

Admittedly, neither would I. The DfT works in mysterious ways.

 

[LexyBoy]

It's possible that Voyagers could be cascaded to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to allow earlier retirement of HSTs.

Dear god no, I don't fancy 5 hours on a DMU :cry: Especially one which is packed to the rafters (even 2 x Voyager has many fewer seats than a HST IIRC).

 

[Nym]

I wish they could do it with 171s, but unfortunately, they're not DEMUs...

I think one major point of caution about the pantograph cars is that they have the potential to screw with reliabilty, at least for a while. Obviously not a good reason to abandon them, and I am totally for them.

EDIT: Just going to slip this link in... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmtran/writev/economy/te89.htm

The reliability may be an issue, but remember that like the other generators these transformers will be able to be isolated

 

[Zoe]

Dear god no, I don't fancy 5 hours on a DMU

Unless there is electrification, a DMU is what you will most likely be getting in the future.

 

[Lampshade]

However arent HST's desiel electric? Maybe sticking a panto could be a good way of cutting operating costs if desiel gets expensive?

BR drew up plans for this in the 80s with a pantograph coach and the power bogie transferred to the adjacent car like on the Blue Pullman. Nothing came of it though.

 

[LexyBoy]

Unless there is electrification, a DMU is what you will most likely be getting in the future.

I know, I know... :roll: It'll make it easier to justify getting the coach though, so my wallet should be happy!

I don't think the Voyagers would be suited though, unless they could be hugely extended - the Penzance HSTs are among the most crushed trains out of Paddington a lot of the time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's possible that Voyagers could be cascaded to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to allow earlier retirement of HSTs.

I hope not, Crosscountry really need the additional Voyagers, especially if passenger numbers continue to climb. They’ve got five HSTs of their own, which makes for a very small non-standard fleet, which they’ll have to get rid of at some point (Not that I want to see them go).

It would be better to see the MML electrified by 2025/2030 and the Meridians moved over to replace FGWs remaining HSTs on the South West services (At about the time they’ll be due a big mid-life overhaul and refurb), with a new fleet of electric IEPs on the MML.

My idea is some (maybe all if you wire to Chester and base some 57s there to drag Pendos) 221s from Virgin replaced by new Pendos, cascaded to XC with panto cars added. XC 220s would be cascaded to the Cotswolds line with a panto car added (there seems to be a fairly strong opinion on the forums that 180s should go back to the Cotswolds line, and a 220 with a panto car is the nearest you can get to that while making use of the wires from PAD to Oxford). Would be great if the other 220s could have a panto+3rd rail shoe car added for XC's services into 3rd rail zone.

Following that, my current thinking is MML electrification to Corby and Nottingham, replacing the IC125s with EMUs or electric LHCS and putting 222s with panto cars on the other services. That would be followed by wiring Plymouth to Bristol and Zoe's suggested re-routing of all direct services from London to Taunton and beyond via Bristol, completing the replacment of IC125s with all-electric trains (either EMUs or IC225 style trains, the latter provides a new build of LHCS to replace the sleeper stock). I wouldn't stop wiring at Bristol, and carry on through Birmingham to Derby and from there to Doncaster to complete MML wiring and replace 222s with EMUs or electric LHCS. Asuming the Scots get their wires to Aberdeen, most XC services could be EMUs, perhaps with a few 222s for Penzance. The other INTERCITY services beyond Plymouth could be dragged EMUs.

 

[LE Greys]

My idea is some (maybe all if you wire to Chester and base some 57s there to drag Pendos) 221s from Virgin replaced by new Pendos, cascaded to XC with panto cars added. XC 220s would be cascaded to the Cotswolds line with a panto car added (there seems to be a fairly strong opinion on the forums that 180s should go back to the Cotswolds line, and a 220 with a panto car is the nearest you can get to that while making use of the wires from PAD to Oxford). Would be great if the other 220s could have a panto+3rd rail shoe car added for XC's services into 3rd rail zone.

Following that, my current thinking is MML electrification to Corby and Nottingham, replacing the IC125s with EMUs or electric LHCS and putting 222s with panto cars on the other services. That would be followed by wiring Plymouth to Bristol and Zoe's suggested re-routing of all direct services from London to Taunton and beyond via Bristol, completing the replacment of IC125s with all-electric trains (either EMUs or IC225 style trains, the latter provides a new build of LHCS to replace the sleeper stock). I wouldn't stop wiring at Bristol, and carry on through Birmingham to Derby and from there to Doncaster to complete MML wiring and replace 222s with EMUs or electric LHCS. Asuming the Scots get their wires to Aberdeen, most XC services could be EMUs, perhaps with a few 222s for Penzance. The other INTERCITY services beyond Plymouth could be dragged EMUs.

Around the same time, the ECML IEP finally comes in. Order about 30 more of the long version, and you have a unified fleet plus 31 Class 91s and 30 MkIV rakes going spare. Send half of them to the MML and the other half to Crown Point (coaches anyway, knowing the 91's slow acceleration). Swap some spare 222s freed up by this with the 221s, retain tilt, add a PTSO and put them on TPX Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh. Speeds that service up and frees some 185s to either replace the 170s or reinforce other 185s elsewhere. The 222s go to the Cotswolds rather than 221s.