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IEP - Hitatchi making good out of a bad spec?

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mr_jrt

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The question is not how long the train is as much as how much of that length is available to carry passengers. 265m is the new standard length for InterCity platforms and if you waste 20m of that to a locomotive then it's not efficient at all. SDO is not a silver bullet that cures all ills - it is only suitable for stations where there are a small number of passengers boarding and alighting from a limited number of trains too long to fit in the platforms.

I've not got much to add to this discussion, but I am following it with interest. However, if this particular point is such an issue, why on earth can't things be changed so a loco doesn't need to be in the usable platform...staff are more than capable of climbing down to track level and gaining access to the platforms from the ends if need be.

...my personal position on this is that I have no problem with intercity EMUs - whatever works best is fine by me (though you have to appreciate the flexibility of the MK3 carriage when it comes to locomotive options over the years) - but I do think not designing for off-wire diesel haulage is a missed trick. The limp-home is a neat feature, but being able to operate at a useful capacity (i.e. 100mph) without lugging all that bimode deadweight around under the wires is probably better, IMHO.
 
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RAGNARØKR

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Also track damage increases exponentially with axel weight, distributed weight reduces wear and tear on the tracks compared to having a very heavy locomotive.
Exponentially? In practice, this is inconclusive. Unless you have any information to the contrary.

It would in any case assume all other things being equal. Some EMUs are kinder to the track than others, despite similar weights.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So why has the entire rest of the world moved to multiple unit high speed trains? The Shinkansen has always had distributed traction and all new European models have it as well. The German equivalent of the IEP is the ICx and it's exactly the same, using distributed traction to replace older loco hauled rakes and power car ICE1 and ICE2 trains. Unless there is a worldwide conspiracy against loco or power car haulage I don't think the whole world could be described as being as blinkered as the DfT are when it comes to procuring new high speed train sets.

The question is not how long the train is as much as how much of that length is available to carry passengers. 265m is the new standard length for InterCity platforms and if you waste 20m of that to a locomotive then it's not efficient at all. SDO is not a silver bullet that cures all ills - it is only suitable for stations where there are a small number of passengers boarding and alighting from a limited number of trains too long to fit in the platforms.
Has the entire rest of the world moved to multiple unit high speed trains? Locomotive haulage persists because of its flexibility and the fact that old equipment can be kept in use. The standard German regional express is a push-pull double-deck set.

If a route is electrified throughout then there is no need to use a locomotive, but it might help if train formations were not fixed at more than five cars. The Swedish X2000 train is a push-pull set with an electric loco at one end and a variable number of coaches. If two sets are joined the locos are always at the outer ends. This seems a sensible mode of operation apart from the lack of gangways between units as trains can be between 5 and 14 cars long. The loco is less than 20 metres long. In a new generation of trains there would presumably not be a loco as the equipment would go under the floor.

265 metres of platform will accommodate a ten car IEP or a loco plus 11 x 23 metres with 8 metres of overhang. If the 9-bay IEP trailers had 72 seats instead of 88, ie all were in facing bays, the 10 car IEP train would have the same capacity as the 9-car sets that have been offered. In practice, 76 seats could be fitted in, or one vehicle might be entirely airline style for those who prefer it, and perhaps with seat-back screens for entertainment, so that gets the figure up again. However, a 9-bay vehicle does not have to be 23 metres long; the BREL International was 23 metres long. Nine bays (1.90 metres) can actually be fitted (just) into a vehicle about 21.5 metres long, so there is a bit of leeway. A shorter vehicle has the advantage that it can be a bit wider.

What this really amounts to is that passengers are being squashed for the sake of saving an extra car per unit. As The Ham has shown, this is a trivial cost saving.
 
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Haydn1971

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Here we go again... Having higher passenger density now, enables future lengthening - it's really not rocket science :-/
 

Chris125

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I've not got much to add to this discussion, but I am following it with interest. However, if this particular point is such an issue, why on earth can't things be changed so a loco doesn't need to be in the usable platform...staff are more than capable of climbing down to track level and gaining access to the platforms from the ends if need be.

If the train can extend beyond the length of the platform, why not just lengthen said platform or have an extra carriage fitted with SDO? In reality termini are often the fundamental constraint on intercity train lengths and with a concourse at one end and the station throat at the other (or both, like New St and Waverley for example) it's often impractical for trains to be longer than the platform.

Chris
 
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The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1861990 said:
What this really amounts to is that passengers are being squashed for the sake of saving an extra car per unit. As The Ham has shown, this is a trivial cost saving.

Ot maybe a trivial cost saving, but the extra revenue generateed per seat can be quite significant over a month. Even one extra seat being used once per weekday (over the existing) with one passenger paying an extra £100 would be an extra £2,000 per month.

However, given most seats would be useable more than once per day in each direction and there are over 10% more seats in an IEP over a HST, then the income would soon add up. i.e. three times a day paying £30 for 12 extra seats on weekdays only over the 21 x 9 coach sets is over £5 million a year. That is before adding in the 5 coach sets and only using the seat for a very few longish journies a day (bearing in mind that post IEP and electrification it could be possible that one set runs London to Cardiff up to four times a day, that there will be a lot more than 12 extra seats per train and that £30 isn't a lot for a train tickets).
 

RAGNARØKR

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Ot maybe a trivial cost saving, but the extra revenue generateed per seat can be quite significant over a month. Even one extra seat being used once per weekday (over the existing) with one passenger paying an extra £100 would be an extra £2,000 per month.

However, given most seats would be useable more than once per day in each direction and there are over 10% more seats in an IEP over a HST, then the income would soon add up. i.e. three times a day paying £30 for 12 extra seats on weekdays only over the 21 x 9 coach sets is over £5 million a year. That is before adding in the 5 coach sets and only using the seat for a very few longish journies a day (bearing in mind that post IEP and electrification it could be possible that one set runs London to Cardiff up to four times a day, that there will be a lot more than 12 extra seats per train and that £30 isn't a lot for a train tickets).
Thanks for this analysis. The point I was making was that if the IEP units had been ordered as 10-car sets instead of 9-car sets, passengers could have enjoyed the sort of space that was standard in the 1950s, with no loss of seats per unit. Don't forget also that in the 1950s, standard class was largely three-a-side ie 48 seats in a 20 metre vehicle. People were shorter and thinner then, and there seems to be something terribly wrong about a deterioration in space standards half a century later.

In the face of future increases in traffic it might be necessary to cram the seats in a decade or so, but if HS2 gets built, there will be additional capacity at least to the north. On routes to the west, there are other options to provide additional capacity through improvements to the infrastructure.
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1866228 said:
Thanks for this analysis. The point I was making was that if the IEP units had been ordered as 10-car sets instead of 9-car sets, passengers could have enjoyed the sort of space that was standard in the 1950s, with no loss of seats per unit. Don't forget also that in the 1950s, standard class was largely three-a-side ie 48 seats in a 20 metre vehicle. People were shorter and thinner then, and there seems to be something terribly wrong about a deterioration in space standards half a century later.

In the face of future increases in traffic it might be necessary to cram the seats in a decade or so, but if HS2 gets built, there will be additional capacity at least to the north. On routes to the west, there are other options to provide additional capacity through improvements to the infrastructure.

The problem is in 10 years of 2.5% growth there is 28% growth, whilst IIRC IEP will provide 18% more seating than the HST's, meaning that 10 coach trains could be required before HS2. Even post HS2 pasenger numbers on the WCML, ECML and MML will fall to about the numbers seen in 2000, which means that the trains are hardly going to be empty.

Also, short of an extra track (or two) along the length of the GWML (or at least most of it) there is little else which could be done to improve capacity. However as pointed out before infrestructure is very expensive compared with new trains.

Given the 5th line on the SWML near Waterloo is costed at £1bn and will not improve things by very much or over a very long length even if alternitive trains which were half the cost were purchased there wouldn't be much budget to do very much at all.
 

swt_passenger

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Given the 5th line on the SWML near Waterloo is costed at £1bn and will not improve things by very much ...

Really? What NR say in the London and SE RUS:

This option would involve running additional trains in the high peak into London Waterloo, increasing the SWML peak service from 24tph to 32tph or more on two separate peak direction fast lines from Surbiton inwards.

As a result a significant increase in train operations on the SWML is likely to be viable.

Assuming an extra eight trains are operated then an extra 6,400 seats would be provided in the busiest peak hour, which is sufficient capacity to address the gap.
 
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The Ham

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Really? What NR say in the London and SE RUS:

6400 extra seats in the high peak hour, although it is only possible for a short period of time as the line is bi-directional and then has to close to inbound traffic to allow the trains to get back out of Waterloo in the morning (and the revers in the evening). Meaning that rather than being able to run 1tph to each of the key desitinations (as there about 12 if you include the various loop lines, suburban services to Woking and Guildford, etc.) it is in reality only really 0.5tph.

However it is also likely that such an intensive use of the line owuld only be seen during the peak hours so as to allow the stem a little more space for when something goes wrong to be able to get back on track (as has been proved as of late).

IEP would allow the GWML to achive about 20% of that without any extra works and the GWML is unlikely (even with the removale of trains at Paddington due to Crossrail) to be able to achive such an increase due to Paddington having fewer platforms.

In reality the 5th line for the SWML is a stop gap until Crossrail 2 is built, which would see a step change in the number of services for all desintations.

It should also be noted that the SWML has already seen lots of services see more seat crammed in (one fo the points that is trying to be avoided by those adicating alternitives to IEP's), for instance, post the 5th line I doubt Portsmouth will see the 450's replaced by 444's during the peak hours. As without outher infrestructure improvements (i.e. further spending) many key desitinations on the SWML are unlikely to see extra trains.
 

hwl

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Also track damage increases exponentially with axel weight, distributed weight reduces wear and tear on the tracks compared to having a very heavy locomotive.

I was taught rolling related wear varied with 4th power of static axle load which is a bit more than an exponential increase...
On roads an HGV causes 6,000 times more wear than a small car.
 

RAGNARØKR

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I was taught rolling related wear varied with 4th power of static axle load which is a bit more than an exponential increase...
On roads an HGV causes 6,000 times more wear than a small car.
So how does that work out in the case of the IEP v loco-haulage? A class 220 vehicle weighs about 44 tons compared to a trailer at about 35 tons and a loco at around 80 tons. There is going to be a break-even point somewhere. Can you work out where it is?

In an actual situation, all other things are not equal, as wear and tear will depend on other factors such as the compliance of the suspension.

Do you have any examples that confirm this fourth-power effect in practice, where tracks are used by trains with much heavier axle loads than used in the UK? They must suffer extraordinary rates of wear. Do they?

Since you have studied this subject, what is the effect of wheel radius on track wear?

26 metre trailers, the standard length in mainland Europe, seem to weigh, typically, about 45 tons, incidentally, so if axle load was such an issue surely the IEP should have stuck with 23 metre vehicles. There was also the compromise option of having another two-loco train like the HST, or an over-powered EMU with trailers which were drawn off and used on the non-electrified section of the route by a loco of lower power, as happened on the Waterloo-Bournemough-Weymouth route after 1967. Or a six-axle locomotive.

Whichever way this is looked at, it seems as if there were many other viable, and probably less-costly, options than the IEP solution. The latter was in any event very different from what was originally specified, which no manufacturer could deliver. That says a lot about the concept.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
6400 extra seats in the high peak hour, although it is only possible for a short period of time as the line is bi-directional and then has to close to inbound traffic to allow the trains to get back out of Waterloo in the morning (and the revers in the evening). Meaning that rather than being able to run 1tph to each of the key desitinations (as there about 12 if you include the various loop lines, suburban services to Woking and Guildford, etc.) it is in reality only really 0.5tph.

However it is also likely that such an intensive use of the line owuld only be seen during the peak hours so as to allow the stem a little more space for when something goes wrong to be able to get back on track (as has been proved as of late).

IEP would allow the GWML to achive about 20% of that without any extra works and the GWML is unlikely (even with the removale of trains at Paddington due to Crossrail) to be able to achive such an increase due to Paddington having fewer platforms.

In reality the 5th line for the SWML is a stop gap until Crossrail 2 is built, which would see a step change in the number of services for all desintations.

It should also be noted that the SWML has already seen lots of services see more seat crammed in (one fo the points that is trying to be avoided by those adicating alternitives to IEP's), for instance, post the 5th line I doubt Portsmouth will see the 450's replaced by 444's during the peak hours. As without outher infrestructure improvements (i.e. further spending) many key desitinations on the SWML are unlikely to see extra trains.
I do not doubt your calculations but a 10 car IEP would provide the same number of seats as the 9 car ones actually ordered, but with a decent amount of space for everyone and their luggage, and pro-rata for the shorter units.

That is what the criticism is ultimately about for the end-user's point of view.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem is in 10 years of 2.5% growth there is 28% growth, whilst IIRC IEP will provide 18% more seating than the HST's, meaning that 10 coach trains could be required before HS2. Even post HS2 pasenger numbers on the WCML, ECML and MML will fall to about the numbers seen in 2000, which means that the trains are hardly going to be empty.

Also, short of an extra track (or two) along the length of the GWML (or at least most of it) there is little else which could be done to improve capacity. However as pointed out before infrestructure is very expensive compared with new trains.

Given the 5th line on the SWML near Waterloo is costed at £1bn and will not improve things by very much or over a very long length even if alternitive trains which were half the cost were purchased there wouldn't be much budget to do very much at all.
This is an interesting analysis but surely the main area of congestion on GWML is between Paddington and Heathrow Junction? And surely the logical solution to that is to get the Heathrow trains off the GWML altogether?

Beyond Heathrow the present suburban trains will be replaced by Crossrail, which takes pressure off the approaches to Paddington. Beyond Reading, towards Newbury and Oxford, the suburban trains are still only, at most, 2 x class 165/166, so there is still spare capacity there. Oxford will soon get a new route to London Marylebone, again, further adding to capacity. Didcot to Swindon used to be four track and that would cost no great fortune in land acquisition to get the tracks back in place. That is a lot of potential extra capacity.

Only when all that potential capacity has been taken up are we are at the point you describe where additional infrastructure would be needed, at great cost. In the meantime, IEPs with one extra vehicle would give passengers and their luggage a decent amount of space for many years to come, probably much of the design life of the trains.

The capacity problem itself is partly a consequence of the absence of an effective national land-use planning policy. As a result, people are crammed into the bottom right-hand corner of the country. There are reasons for that which are outside the scope of Railway Forums, but failure to address them is putting undue loads on the infrastructure. It is not just the railways that are given the headache of having to deal with the effects.
 
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swt_passenger

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In reality the 5th line for the SWML is a stop gap until Crossrail 2 is built, which would see a step change in the number of services for all desintations.

You're wrong again, it is explicitly stated in the same source that they they will either build the 5th track OR build Crossrail 2, but not both.
 

The Ham

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You're wrong again, it is explicitly stated in the same source that they they will either build the 5th track OR build Crossrail 2, but not both.

Given the need for Crossrail 2 when HS2 phase 2 opens and how it would provide significantly more capacity for the SWML as well as many other services I would expect that the fifth line possibly has a worse probability of happening. However that's quite a way off topic.
 

snowball

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I was taught rolling related wear varied with 4th power of static axle load which is a bit more than an exponential increase...

Exponential eventually overtakes any power law - 4th, 10th or 1000th!
 

HSTEd

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If you use a 4th power law.....

35t trailer has 1 'wear unit'.
44t MU vehicle has 2.5 'wear units'
80t locomotive has 34.5 'wear units'

Each MU vehicle has 1.5 additional wear units over a trailer.

Meaning a loco hauled formation would be superior when the train is 23 trailers.

Not sure a 23 trailer formation haualed by a single 80t locomotive would be able to keep any reasonable timetable.
 

WatcherZero

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The contracted max train weight for the IEP (meaning they should be lighter) carriage average has
5 car bi 46.66t
9 car bi 41.83t
9 car electric 39.16t
2x5 car electric 39.98t
2x5 car bi 43.18t
 

Class83

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The contracted max train weight for the IEP (meaning they should be lighter) carriage average has
5 car bi 46.66t
9 car bi 41.83t
9 car electric 39.16t
2x5 car electric 39.98t
2x5 car bi 43.18t

How can the average for a 2x5 car bimode be less than the average of a 5 car bimode as surely it's simply 2 of the same thing coupled together?
 

edwin_m

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How can the average for a 2x5 car bimode be less than the average of a 5 car bimode as surely it's simply 2 of the same thing coupled together?

Perhaps some of the hot air from the IEP debate has been captured between the couplings and made the trains lighter?
 

WatcherZero

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No the 5 car bi working alone and those used for strengthening arent identical,
5 Car Bi 3x engines
9 car Bi 5x engines
9 car electric (not sure if 1 or 2 engines)
2x5 car electric 2x engines
2x5 car Bi 4 or 5 engines depending whether coupled to a 5 car electric or a 5 car bi created for strengthening duties

Remember the formations are reconfigurable, they arent fixed sets and can be formed in the depot for specific diagrams.
 
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jopsuk

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one of the bits I am finding a little odd is set lengths- though presumably "adding more carriages" is always an option. Specifically, all routes that the 9-cars will be used on will have to be cleared for 2x5 car as well (some route extensions may only be cleared for 1x5 car)- so why not 10-car sets?
 

edwin_m

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No the 5 car bi working alone and those used for strengthening arent identical,
5 Car Bi 3x engines
9 car Bi 5x engines
9 car electric (not sure if 1 or 2 engines)
2x5 car electric 2x engines
2x5 car Bi 4 or 5 engines depending whether coupled to a 5 car electric or a 5 car bi created for strengthening duties

Remember the formations are reconfigurable, they arent fixed sets and can be formed in the depot for specific diagrams.

So you're saying there are some 5-car bi-modes with three engines and some with two? That strikes me as a crazy piece of unnecessary complication. I can only think they were working to a budget and couldn't find the money to make the other units up to standard.
 

WatcherZero

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Opposite, the ethos is every formation should have at least one diesel engine for limp home/backup power but no formation needs more than 5, its an unneccsary expense and would increase running costs while being unneeded.

As the formations are flexible there is 19 different possible formations that could be formed specified in the Governments final technical specification.
 
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455driver

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No the 5 car bi working alone and those used for strengthening arent identical,
5 Car Bi 3x engines
9 car Bi 5x engines
9 car electric (not sure if 1 or 2 engines)
2x5 car electric 2x engines
2x5 car Bi 4 or 5 engines depending whether coupled to a 5 car electric or a 5 car bi created for strengthening duties

Remember the formations are reconfigurable, they arent fixed sets and can be formed in the depot for specific diagrams.

Surely the highlighted bit would be either 4 or 6 engines?
4 if coupled to an electric set and 6 if coupled to another bi-mode set as each bi-mode will have 3 engines per 5 coach set!
 
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edwin_m

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Opposite, the ethos is every formation should have at least one diesel engine for limp home/backup power but no formation needs more than 5, its an unneccsary expense and would increase running costs while being unneeded.

As the formations are flexible there is 19 different possible formations that could be formed specified in the Governments final technical specification.

But in practice it means there would be a sub-fleet with lower performance than the others, which if they get swapped onto the wrong duty will lose time due to being one engine short - even more so if one of the two engines fails during the day.

Having 6 engines in a 10-car wouldn't increase running costs other than the weight of the extra engine, as one of them could be shut down. And a 10-car bi with 5 engines has less power:weight than a nine-car with five, so potentially can't match its timings.
 

HSTEd

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This gets more ridiculous all the time.

Now we have units specialised for strengthening.... rather weakens the flexibility argument against a uniform fleet of 9-car units doesn't it?
 

WatcherZero

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No, the idea is they will just be treated like coaches and Agility will put together whats needed in the depot to form the required sets for the day. They wont be fixed sets though in practise they would probably be rarely altered once formed unless circumstances required. If theres an event on they could always bung some more coaches into a formation for strengthening which you couldnt do with a fixed formation.
 
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NotATrainspott

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On the fast sections where timing is most important the Class 800 will be running on electric power so it's not going to make as much of a difference whether there are enough engines or not. With the right number of engines the trains are capable of running at 200km/h and most unelectrified lines aren't as fast as that so I can't see it making that much of a difference.
 

edwin_m

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No, the idea is they will just be treated like coaches and Agility will put together whats needed in the depot to form the required sets for the day. They wont be fixed sets though in practise they would probably be rarely altered once formed unless circumstances required. If theres an event on they could always bung some more coaches into a formation for strengthening which you couldnt do with a fixed formation.

So not at all like adding a diesel loco for non-electrified sections then?
 

LexyBoy

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No, the idea is they will just be treated like coaches and Agility will put together whats needed in the depot to form the required sets for the day. They wont be fixed sets though in practise they would probably be rarely altered once formed unless circumstances required. If theres an event on they could always bung some more coaches into a formation for strengthening which you couldnt do with a fixed formation.

It'll be interesting to see how this works out, given that this is in principle possible for the 125 and 225 sets but virtually never done in practice (for changes in service I mean, I realise coaches are often swapped out for service etc)
 

HSTEd

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And how long will it be before it is discovered that it is far cheaper to use them as fixed formation trains and simply short form or cancel services without available functioning formations?

Fixed formations were adopted for a reason.
They don't require hordes of shunt moves and endless fault finding to work out where a fault is on a time limited basis. You can do it at leisure once the set has been withdrawn.

EDIT:

And if you can reform your trains every night why bother with strengthening sets?
You can just make up longer formations for the busy diagram on the fly.
 
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