If they are after more passanger space per carriage they could only put doors at one end of the carriage (like a Eurostar set, but 23m carriages on conventional bogies, okay it would make unloading take a bit longer, but it's not exactly the fastest on a hst or meridian.
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IEP & Thameslink
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I would gamble that it would be more than 'a bit' longer if you only had one door per 23m of train! Can you imagine trying to get the numbers of passengers seen at rush hour in somewhere like Reading to board through half the doors that they would normally?
WatcherZero
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It is calculated under the formula that you have certain space requirements which are not carriage length dependent such as wheel chair spaces, toilets, doors, etc... extra space after those are accounted for can be pure seating taken from couplers and dead space at the carriage ends, so actually has much more bang for the buck than you would expect. That extra 3m is enough for an extra set of four seats and table (1820mm) and an extra row of seats (816mm) with some extra leg room. So thats 12 extra seats per carriage, multiply that by the number of carriages and you get that many more seats than an equal length 23m train.
Thats why NR believes its cost efficent to spend circa £800m on 26m carriage clearance across the network.
Trobble is, funds are short. As useful as longer coaches probably are I'd much rather not have them (or restrict them to a small part of the network) so that money can be used to electrify more of the network so we can avoid the enviromentally insane idea of ordering another fleet of Intercity DMUs (IEP, in its current form).
It's not quite the same as ordering a new fleet of intercity DMUs though as bi-mode IEP will allow the trains to benefit from the electrification and only use diesel when running beyond the wires. As electrification is extended the diesel engines can be removed and the trains converted to EMUs.
Nym
Established Member
The thing is you see...
8x26=208m is pretty much the same length as 9x23=207m.
So that extra 12 seats multiplied by 8 gives you an additional 96 seats, but an extra 23m carriage, that because it's part of an MU set doesn't need any disabled toilets or anything (hence rendering that point moot, they don't need to be in every carriage) and would fit within the same platform length as an 8x26m unit would provide you an additional 70 - 74 seats.
Therefore, all of these new clearances, etc. are for nothing more than an additional 22 - 26 seats per '9 car' set?
Sorry, but for me, creating and clearing a whole new running profile and concept, and not even being able to prove the additional 12 seats per carriage, as previously mentioned, they would need tapered ends, coupled to having less doors per passenger, all the clearance issues, and every other problem associated with the IEP or any new gauge profile (Most other stock is C1, C3 or C4), why should we bother for the sake of 26 seats, out of a set likely to have over 500?
No doubt someone would claim this is a 5% increase in capacity, but to be honest, I could make it a 15% increase in capacity without breaking a sweat.
This 207m long set, make it 230m long, oh look, mummy mummy, this set has 74 more seats than the 207m long set... (15% increase in capacity)
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True, but they would benifit from electrification alot less than a real electric train (less to maintain if you don't have diesel engines, and a lot of the other benifts of electrification are weight-related, which you throw away by carrying diesel engines around with you) and probably will still be at least as bad as a Voyager for the enviroment beyond the wires. You need far fewer diesel-powerplants overall if they are only required to cover the distance beyond the wires, so diesel locos = less diesel engines in total = better enviroment and slightly less maintenance.
Also true, but the cost of purchasing the diesel engines will mean it is highly unlikely the government will want to pay to put wires up to allow removal of the diesel engines, so although possible it won't happen.
WatcherZero
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Its not a new profile though, It was developed for the mk5 cars and used by Virgin for the 25m end cars on the 390. Its around the 9/10 carriage mark that 26m becomes more efficent than 23m thats why as a concept its restricted to intercity main line services. It requires next to no changes to lineside structures and tunnels already being expanded to w12 with almost 90% of the work only needing to be done on platforms.
Network rail has just put out to tender a £800m combined contract to upgrade the ECML for IEP and electrify Transpennine.
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RobShipway
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]
Which is why even with the Introduction of IEP, the HST's will still be doing the servics to Plymouth/Penzance until this section can be electrified as well or a suitable replacement can be found such as Class 222's if the MML is electrified as well.
OJEU: Power Supply Upgrade and Electrification to the UK Railway Infrastructure Network. said:
http://www.publictenders.net/node/1743751
I always find the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU) website really hard to navigate, but the above site republishes the information.
Make of it what you will but there does not appear to be any doubt of electrification to Hull, Middlesborough, Scarborough and even Cleethorpes. Whether the final scope goes this far we will see.
Wasn't the TPE branches electrification announcement supposed to be in June?
tbtc
Veteran Member
Surprising to see Cleethorpes on there (since the only services from Cleethorpes to Doncaster are the ones to Sheffield/Manchester - which isn't mentioned)?
Good news if true, don't get me wrong, just surprised to see Cleethorpes mentioned
Well we did get the announcement of Hope Valley Line upgrades which was initially reported by the BBC as electrification so maybe the BBC were right to jump the gun
I would guess that the tender is just to cover all the bases and that Network Rail don't actually expect that all those routes will have to be wired (though I'm happy to be proved wrong!).
Well exactly! I wonder if there are any freight flows which could convert to electric traction, or whether its just a case of, the supply will cover it, so lets do it while we have the opportunity. Hmm
RobShipway
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Doesn't Cleethorpes still have a once a day East Coast HST service to King's Cross still? If it does and the HST's are being replaced by IEP trains, then they will need to be electrifying to Cleethorpes as this is cheaper and better than running a Hybrid train just to do the run from Doncaster to Cleethorpes.
Er no that's been discontinued for some considerable time now!
Aictos
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Sorry, you must be thinking of Hull! Cleethorpes hasn't had a London service in decades, must be about 20 years now I think?
In the 16th May to 2nd October 1988 Inter-City timetable, BR ran the following services to and from Cleethorpes:
Cleethorpes: 0612
Grimsby Town: 0619
Lincoln Central: 0719
Newark Northgate: 0741
Grantham: 0754
Peterborough: 0816
Kings Cross: 0918
Kings Cross: 1804
Peterborough: 1854
Grantham: 1917
Newark Northgate: 1929
Lincoln Central: 1953
Grimsby Town: 2048
Cleethorpes: 2059
Hope you find this informative?
No mention of the Cambridge/Kings Lynn route which goes along with recent reports that IEP will not now be used for those services. OHLE would have to be upgraded especially north of Cambridge for IEP (or much use of any other 8 car stock north of Cambridge).
I suspect Cleethorpes is included for costings purposes - I can't see what it would link to as those services go via Sheffield. May eventually help the case for Newark-Lincoln though.
I suspect Cleethorpes is included for costings purposes - I can't see what it would link to as those services go via Sheffield. May eventually help the case for Newark-Lincoln though.
RobShipway
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Yes, thanks. Maybe when Cleethopres is electrified this can be re - introduced? Although, I am sure that some 30 plus years ago the HST from Cleethorpes was at 09:10am?
tbtc
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Sam Cam's dad (Sir Reginald Sheffield) owns a bit of land in north Lincolnshire (and was President of Scunthorpe United Football Club)...
Ah, yes, I remember that half hour when it looked like we were getting wires!
There's Immingham, but I don't know of any freight paths that would be wholly under the wires.
You could be right about it having a negligible marginal cost to wire this at the same time as other things, but sadly the same approach isn't being taken to the Thames Valley branches (or Bolton - Wigan etc).
Not any more - there was one under BR, but the closest is the daily East Coast Hull/Lincoln services (plus the Hull Trains ones)
Well we did get the announcement of Hope Valley Line upgrades which was initially reported by the BBC as electrification so maybe the BBC were right to jump the gun
I would guess that the tender is just to cover all the bases and that Network Rail don't actually expect that all those routes will have to be wired (though I'm happy to be proved wrong!).
Ah, yes, I remember that half hour when it looked like we were getting wires!
There's Immingham, but I don't know of any freight paths that would be wholly under the wires.
You could be right about it having a negligible marginal cost to wire this at the same time as other things, but sadly the same approach isn't being taken to the Thames Valley branches (or Bolton - Wigan etc).
Not any more - there was one under BR, but the closest is the daily East Coast Hull/Lincoln services (plus the Hull Trains ones)
IEP Will be signed off at the end of the month, building of the Newton Aycliffe Works will then start straight away, we can then look forward in a couple of years of seeing quality trains speeding down to Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IEP will be signed off at the end of this month, Newton Aycliffe works will then be started, we can then in a 2 years look forward to seeing some quality High Speed trains speeding down to Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IEP will be signed off at the end of this month, Newton Aycliffe works will then be started, we can then in a 2 years look forward to seeing some quality High Speed trains speeding down to Wales.
Nym
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You have quality trains now, you mean you can look forwards to less quality trains into Wales and some plastic tat instead?
You have to obviously question if a brand new plastic train will actually make it all the way from London Paddington to Wales!
And, the 395. The only train where I cut my hand as I waked through the train and got caught by something sharp (never worked out exactly what it had been, as I didn't notice the blood straight away). The TM was quite worried when I asked if he had a first aid kit - probably thought I was going to sue or something!
I hope that any other new 21st Century train would be put together so that there weren't any sharp edges/corners because someone couldn't screw the panels/seats/tables/doors together.
And, the 395. The only train where I cut my hand as I waked through the train and got caught by something sharp (never worked out exactly what it had been, as I didn't notice the blood straight away). The TM was quite worried when I asked if he had a first aid kit - probably thought I was going to sue or something!
I hope that any other new 21st Century train would be put together so that there weren't any sharp edges/corners because someone couldn't screw the panels/seats/tables/doors together.
WatcherZero
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I sued a publisher once because I got a paper cut off a new book, its edges were dangerously sharp and there were dangerous corners!
True Story...... :roll:
True Story...... :roll:
This is a wind up right?
Nym
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Amazing you can comment on a unit that hasn't even been built yet and also that you only manage to spell one of them correctly.
The IEP isn't built yet, so how may I ask, do you know detailed reliability information on these units?
Also, since "High Quality Spec" is highly subjective, do you have any actual data to back up this vague claim?
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Aictos
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And the HSTs weren't built by a British workforce, are not pleasing on the eye, are slow and uncomfortable?
Meanwhile in the real world, IEP still has many questions unanswered - is it really cost effective for example when the Alstom offering seems to be more cost effective.
Meanwhile in the real world, IEP still has many questions unanswered - is it really cost effective for example when the Alstom offering seems to be more cost effective.
The reason why these Units won the IEP are becouse of their reliability figures, and calling me a Troll just reminds me of the insecurity people feel that HST has passed its sell by date and we should welcome the future which is the Javelin Train.
Nym
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So, answer none of the questions I actually asked you and has no idea about tendering or business in the UK. I'm out...
Whether Hitachi, Alstom or whoever else build the Intercity 125 replacment is, in my opinion, irrelevant. Both the 390 and 395 seem to be decent trains (though I haven't be on either very much, and the only time I've been on a 395 was when it was stationary (York railfest)). Voyagers are not decent trains, but this is almost certainly down to the specification rather than the train builder. Had Virgin asked a different manufacture for a fleet of 4/5-car tilting underfloor-diesel-engined Intercity units the result would probablly have been just as awful.
The important thing with IEP is that the specification DfT have come up with is an enviromentaly perverse and fundamentally flawed concept that will not produce a worthy replacment for the IC125. Specify a sensible Intercity train that doesn't lock Britain into 30 odd years of herendous diesel use and it doesn't really matter who builds it, though the more that can be done in Britain the better.
The important thing with IEP is that the specification DfT have come up with is an enviromentaly perverse and fundamentally flawed concept that will not produce a worthy replacment for the IC125. Specify a sensible Intercity train that doesn't lock Britain into 30 odd years of herendous diesel use and it doesn't really matter who builds it, though the more that can be done in Britain the better.
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