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IEP & Thameslink

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jon0844

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There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the 395s. They're fast (ish), clean (for now) and smooth (except for when leaving St Pancras, despite supposedly being fixed). They look nice from the outside and the publicity has got the general public going 'wow' about high speed trains when they're really not that fast, or any faster than a Mk4 could have been going along the ECML if regulations hadn't changed - or a Pendolino on the WCML. The only true high-speed train (in my mind) is Eurostar.

I love modern technology. I'm hardly stuck in the past, but all too often I see modern trains and wonder how long they're going to last compared the older, more industrial, looking trains. Of course they look nicer, but will they in 10 or 15 years time?

Sit me on a brand new Airbus with fading LED lighting and I'll be going 'wow' and getting all excited, but airlines have an incentive to keep upgrading and refurbishing their interiors and facilitied. On the railway, shiny plastic panels today end up being dull, faded, marked panels tomorrow. It's already happening on the 2009 stock on the tube.

The 360s on GA look far older than they are too. I am certain that the 395s will need a facelift sooner rather than later, although as they're barely used in comparison to most rolling stock, they might survive a bit longer. If only SET considered dropping the HS1 supplement, or allowed Stratford International to become part of the London zonal system.

I didn't make up my story about being cut either. I was walking through the train to give it a good look from end to end, and obviously caught myself on a grab rail or seat. My point is that many modern trains (Bombardier, I'm mostly looking at you) seem to have poor quality control (from 378s to 379s and the new S Stock). Forget my single incident, but look at the niggles all new trains seem to have.

Perhaps HSTs did too, or there was less to go wrong back then, but I have more faith in seeing stock like the HST or a Class 313 lasting 30-40-50 years than a 377 or 395 doing the same.

Time will tell.
 
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starrymarkb

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I was quite impressed with the ICE-T from a passenger viewpoint on my recent German trip. Though I understand they are a maintainance headache.

From the tender docs that were publicised during the tender I think IEP will be a dog's breakfast. I can't speak for Hitachi build quality but due to the DfT spec I can see it being overcomplex and problematic.
 

YorkshireBear

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You can not say that the IEP is going to be more reliable than anything currently on the network. None have been built so there is no data, if it does what they say then yes very impressive but it could equally not and be shocking. Theory does not equal practise.

Many of the people on this forum do not live in this past, and it is not new trains they have a problem with, it is the train. I imagine if it was 9/10/11 23m All electric IEP there would be a lot less opposition on this forum.
 

Bridge189

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Will they IEP have plug doors? I can't stand "pockets" and all other intercity stock is plug.
 

starrymarkb

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Artists impressions made public so far show pocket doors. The Japanese don't really do plug.

Now if only they would have an interior like this

7301608460_b379a1bd13_z.jpg
 

anthony263

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Yes I wouldnt mind an interior like that especially for those of use who travel from Swansea to London.
 

John55

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There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the 395s. They're fast (ish), clean (for now) and smooth (except for when leaving St Pancras, despite supposedly being fixed). They look nice from the outside and the publicity has got the general public going 'wow' about high speed trains when they're really not that fast, or any faster than a Mk4 could have been going along the ECML if regulations hadn't changed - or a Pendolino on the WCML. The only true high-speed train (in my mind) is Eurostar.

I love modern technology. I'm hardly stuck in the past, but all too often I see modern trains and wonder how long they're going to last compared the older, more industrial, looking trains. Of course they look nicer, but will they in 10 or 15 years time?

Sit me on a brand new Airbus with fading LED lighting and I'll be going 'wow' and getting all excited, but airlines have an incentive to keep upgrading and refurbishing their interiors and facilitied. On the railway, shiny plastic panels today end up being dull, faded, marked panels tomorrow. It's already happening on the 2009 stock on the tube.

The 360s on GA look far older than they are too. I am certain that the 395s will need a facelift sooner rather than later, although as they're barely used in comparison to most rolling stock, they might survive a bit longer. If only SET considered dropping the HS1 supplement, or allowed Stratford International to become part of the London zonal system.

I didn't make up my story about being cut either. I was walking through the train to give it a good look from end to end, and obviously caught myself on a grab rail or seat. My point is that many modern trains (Bombardier, I'm mostly looking at you) seem to have poor quality control (from 378s to 379s and the new S Stock). Forget my single incident, but look at the niggles all new trains seem to have.

Perhaps HSTs did too, or there was less to go wrong back then, but I have more faith in seeing stock like the HST or a Class 313 lasting 30-40-50 years than a 377 or 395 doing the same.

Time will tell.

The HST was a nightmare when it appeared from 1976 with several fundamental weaknesses in the design. It was reported the maintenance costs were double those predicted in the original forecasts. Just as well the public liked them! It took decades to sort some of them out and now everyone thinks they are wonderful. (Except the guys who have to change the brake pads in the depot.)

Following a recent journey from St Pancras to Ashford on a 395 I dont expect them ever to need internal refurbishment as there are no passengers to generate wear. 4 passengers in our coach.
 

TEW

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Depends on when you travel on HS1, last time I travelled was on a Saturday in the late morning towards London, and the train was full and standing from Ashford.
 

395

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Will they IEP have plug doors? I can't stand "pockets" and all other intercity stock is plug.

I'm 99 % sure the IEP electic model will be 10 car Units based on the 395 design, with the same door systems, toilets but interstingly a buffet car, with a maintenance depot earmarked for Stoke Gifford, possible senario is detraining electrical units at Parkway and then diesel down to Swansea, worcester, St Davids.Stabling Diesels then at Swansea, Shrub Hill, St Davids Exeter.
 

Class377/5

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Depends on when you travel on HS1, last time I travelled was on a Saturday in the late morning towards London, and the train was full and standing from Ashford.

Off peak on a normal weekday and they are fairly quiet. I use the North Kent ones to visit family and they are used especially on the traditional routes.

However peak they are very full.
 

starrymarkb

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I'm 99 % sure the IEP electic model will be 10 car Units based on the 395 design, with the same door systems, toilets but interstingly a buffet car, with a maintenance depot earmarked for Stoke Gifford, possible senario is detraining electrical units at Parkway and then diesel down to Swansea, worcester, St Davids.Stabling Diesels then at Swansea, Shrub Hill, St Davids Exeter.

10x23m? or 10x20m?

Detraining? Do you mean making all passengers change trains. That wouldn't go down well, especially as Parkway is a windblown s**thole of a station!
 

395

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I agree detraining at the exposed Parkway won't go down well, it'll be interesting to see how they get passengers down to Swansea from Bristol/Cardiff.
 

yorkie

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I agree detraining at the exposed Parkway won't go down well, it'll be interesting to see how they get passengers down to Swansea from Bristol/Cardiff.
This is absolutely bonkers. Your suggestion is politically impossible, and operationally inconvenient to say the least. Please keep suggestions realistic.
 

sprinterguy

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I'm 99 % sure the IEP electic model will be 10 car Units based on the 395 design
Only if the spec has been changed again in recent times: The most recent big announcement of the proposed IEP order in 2011 stated that the maximum train length at delivery would be 8 carriages, with the intention of them being easily extendable up to a maximum length of 12 carriages, although we've all heard those sorts of claims about new train fleets being "easily extendable" too often for them to hold much water :roll:

Smaller tidbits of information on IEP contained in the Great Western ITT document also point towards 8-car sets being delivered.
 

395

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I believe there will be a number of bi modes with the majority being 10 car Electric only units, maintained at Stoke Gifford,and Old Oak. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think they are going to run the Bi Modes all the way from Padington, they are just going to run the the welsh leg, maybe Cardiff to Swansea,also Parkway to Worcester, Exeter. I believe the High Speed times that the press published were from Cardiff to Padington via Bristol, only the Electrified routes.
 

ainsworth74

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I believe there will be a number of bi modes with the majority being 10 car Electric only units, maintained at Stoke Gifford,and Old Oak. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think they are going to run the Bi Modes all the way from Padington, they are just going to run the the welsh leg, maybe Cardiff to Swansea,also Parkway to Worcester, Exeter. I believe the High Speed times that the press published were from Cardiff to Padington via Bristol, only the Electrified routes.

Just out of interest but what is your source for these claims (both in this post and the other one above)? As they fly in the face of pretty much everything that's been released to do with IEP.
 

Nym

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Just out of interest but what is your source for these claims (both in this post and the other one above)? As they fly in the face of pretty much everything that's been released to do with IEP.

Is would be very interesting to see these sources, considering yes, they do go against everything that's been published to do with the IEP and SET.
 

yorkie

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I believe there will be a number of bi modes with the majority being 10 car Electric only units, maintained at Stoke Gifford,and Old Oak.
And your source for this is...? Or when you say "I believe" do you mean it's just a fantasy that you have, rather than based on any actual evidence. If you have evidence, let's see it!
 

tbtc

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Only if the spec has been changed again in recent times: The most recent big announcement of the proposed IEP order in 2011 stated that the maximum train length at delivery would be 8 carriages, with the intention of them being easily extendable up to a maximum length of 12 carriages, although we've all heard those sorts of claims about new train fleets being "easily extendable" too often for them to hold much water :roll:

To be fair, this is generally an issue with diesel stock, where you cannot build compatible engines for relatively small classes of 170/185/220/221s etc - I presume that the EMU nature of the IEPs (and presumably a larger number of units?) will make it cost effective to build centre coaches (as is currently happening with the Pendolini)?

Am not trying to get into an argument over "IEP good"/ "IEP bad", but at least it would be realistic to insert coaches into an IEP to lengthen it (like a 390), even though that hasn't happened with DMUs like the 185s.
 

Zoe

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Smaller tidbits of information on IEP contained in the Great Western ITT document also point towards 8-car sets being delivered.
Has the ITT actually been published now? I can't find it anywhere, only the franchise consultation.
 

sprinterguy

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Right but some of the information contained in it about the IEP is known?
Industry rumours have been posted on this forum recently, IIRC by a member who is usually pretty reliable with their information, that the ITT document will contain a further alteration to the Great Western IEP order. I made my previous post before I was 100% sure that the Great Western ITT had been published or not, sorry about that: If I recall I think that it is actually due to be released some time after June 28th.
 

Bridge189

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I'm 99 % sure the IEP electic model will be 10 car Units based on the 395 design, with the same door systems, toilets but interstingly a buffet car, with a maintenance depot earmarked for Stoke Gifford, possible senario is detraining electrical units at Parkway and then diesel down to Swansea, worcester, St Davids.Stabling Diesels then at Swansea, Shrub Hill, St Davids Exeter.

Why interestingly a buffet car? All true long distance operators have them now apart from AXC.
 

swt_passenger

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Right but some of the information contained in it about the IEP is known?

I suspect people are generally referring to the IEP info shown in the consultation document for the eventual ITT , which was published a while ago - December 2011: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-36/

Table 3.5:

Proposed IEP weekday diagrams allocations (the proposed fleet consists of 49 unit diagrams divided as shown)

Length Mode Quantity
5-car bi-mode 26
8-car electric 11
8-car bi-mode 12
Total 49

So NO 10 cars, and a significant majority of bi-mode, as has been routinely reported for a couple of years; and therefore nothing like what 395 is routinely quoting...
 

Pumbaa

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So NO 10 cars, and a significant majority of bi-mode, as has been routinely reported for a couple of years; and therefore nothing like what 395 is routinely quoting...

Quite. That is as much as we know for certain.

All we've had confirmed since as that IEP was definitely kept as the proposed rolling stock.

I'm not sure what axe '395' has to grind, or who he is purporting to be at 'southeastern towers' but it's wrong and not helpful in any way whatsoever!
 

junglejames

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Its not a new profile though, It was developed for the mk5 cars and used by Virgin for the 25m end cars on the 390. Its around the 9/10 carriage mark that 26m becomes more efficent than 23m thats why as a concept its restricted to intercity main line services. It requires next to no changes to lineside structures and tunnels already being expanded to w12 with almost 90% of the work only needing to be done on platforms.



Network rail has just put out to tender a £800m combined contract to upgrade the ECML for IEP and electrify Transpennine.

Excuse the late response, but if these 26m coaches are going to be 'no problem at all' and will fit onto existing mainlines, then why are NR having to splash out millions upon millions of pounds to guage clear the lines they will run on? Also, why will the coaches have to be so much narrower than Mk3s? They wont just have narrow ends. By all accounts they will have to be narrow all the way along. Then combine this to the fact they are to be made out of aluminium, which requires extra stiffeners and supports, and you end up with a pendy interior. A lot of people put up with the pendy interior because it tilts, but should we have to put up with an awful interior on a train that doesnt tilt? Also, should we have to put up with a train that is very restricted with where it can go?

I can just imagine it. Trains are down to be diverted via an unusual diversion for the day. However on the Bristol/ Cardiff runs, all trains are to be replaced by buses. Why? Because these new amazing, top spec trains couldnt fit down the line. Oh but why are the Penzance trains running? Ah, because those horrible old antiquated trains can fit down the line. Welcome to the world of the vibrating poo tube.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The reason why these Units won the IEP are becouse of their reliability figures, and calling me a Troll just reminds me of the insecurity people feel that HST has passed its sell by date and we should welcome the future which is the Javelin Train.

Perhaps if you actually travelled on the 395s, instead of just looking at the nice shiny pictures of them, you would realise your not exactly talking sense.

You say Bombardier arent in the same league. Very true, the 375s are much better than 395s. Less noise, less vibration, less shaking, and more comfortable. I only use the 395s because I am usually heading to North London. Give me a choice to St Pancras, and id turn to the 375s anyday.
 
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