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If 20% of train services are to be cut due to the change in usage patterns, what would you cut?

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Philip

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Regarding the Southport service, I'm sure I remember a regular service (as in hourly) along the Atherton line around 1995-97? It might have been Saturday only as that is the day I remember, but I'm sure there was a frequent Southport service along the Atherton line before 1998.
 
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HST43257

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Why 1tp2h London-Glasgow and Liverpool? Surely they should stay with their current hourly service (Perhaps without or with a reduced London-Brum-Glasgow and the xx:33 Liverpool extras). These routes are busy especially on summer holidays/for leisure and that should be the first travelling market to bounce back
I highly doubt that they will bounce back in a huge way, at least for a couple of years. I suppose time will tell
 

Bletchleyite

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Regarding the Southport service, I'm sure I remember a regular service (as in hourly) along the Atherton line around 1995-97? It might have been Saturday only as that is the day I remember, but I'm sure there was a frequent Southport service along the Atherton line before 1998.

Just been through my stash of random railway junk and while I have a Summer 1998 timetable (which had the upgraded frequency of roughly 2tph, one to Castlefield and one to Vic, with peak extras, and not at all clockface) sadly I don't have one from just before that, thought I did but it was 1980s.
 

Peter0124

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I highly doubt that they will bounce back in a huge way, at least for a couple of years. I suppose time will tell
Yeah maybe not during winter times but I still reckon if restrictions ease this summer trains will be nearly back to their pre-pandemic loadings especially on long distance routes for those wanting a holiday or wanting to stay with family after a year of restrictions. I still think Glasgow and Liverpool deserve their hourly frequency though and in the case of your idea for 1tp2h, would 1tp2h do the full Euston-Glasgow and 1tp2h do Euston-Preston say?
 

HST43257

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Yeah maybe not during winter times but I still reckon if restrictions ease this summer trains will be nearly back to their pre-pandemic loadings especially on long distance routes for those wanting a holiday or wanting to stay with family after a year of restrictions. I still think Glasgow and Liverpool deserve their hourly frequency though and in the case of your idea for 1tp2h, would 1tp2h do the full Euston-Glasgow and 1tp2h do Euston-Preston say?
I’d share it and another path with 3tp2h to Birmingham, of which 1tp2h goes through to Edinburgh.
 

Purple Orange

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Given that Newcastle is well served by other operators from at least York, if any that would be the one to cut. TPE is the main operator to Scarborough and Middlesbrough so they really couldn't afford to lose that.

I think a healthy mix of TOCs on the ECML between York & Edinburgh (and 2 on Leeds-Edinburgh) will provide good competition.

As for Scarborough & Middlesbrough, there is nothing to state they should be operated by TPE. They have not always had those services and could be serviced by Northern to York/Leeds/Darlington/Newcastle respectively. They don’t need Liverpool & Manchester Airport for example.
 

cactustwirly

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I’d focus most of the cuts in the south east, where commuting has taken the biggest hit.

With regards to TPE, if cut to 4 tph on the north trans pennine route I’d actually rationalise the TPE northern destinations. I.e. focus on Newcastle & Hull.

You can't, where is the money going to come from to pay for the services in the north.
 

JonathanH

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I think a healthy mix of TOCs on the ECML between York & Edinburgh (and 2 on Leeds-Edinburgh) will provide good competition.
That 'competition' is reported to be considered by the DfT / Treasury to drive down the fares which can be charged and therefore reduce the revenue for the government. With it all going into one pot and passenger sentiment being strongly against the 'confusion' of different fares for the same journey, it appears likely that competition is unnecessary on the post-Covid railway.
 

DB

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I think a healthy mix of TOCs on the ECML between York & Edinburgh (and 2 on Leeds-Edinburgh) will provide good competition.

As for Scarborough & Middlesbrough, there is nothing to state they should be operated by TPE. They have not always had those services and could be serviced by Northern to York/Leeds/Darlington/Newcastle respectively. They don’t need Liverpool & Manchester Airport for example.

Competition is irrelevant at the moment as all operators are directly controlled by DfT - and there is talk of getting rid of operator-specific tickets.

The fact is that those services are operated by TPE and given the current backlog in training which already exists there would be no logic in making things worse by a major reorganisation of routes.
 

xotGD

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I would drop the Bradford - Skipton services. Folk can change at Shipley.

Also the Knottingley - Leeds via Wakefield can terminate at Wakey like it used to do.

Cross country services via Leeds should be cut back and not continue north of Leeds.
 

Purple Orange

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That 'competition' is reported to be considered by the DfT / Treasury to drive down the fares which can be charged and therefore reduce the revenue for the government. With it all going into one pot and passenger sentiment being strongly against the 'confusion' of different fares for the same journey, it appears likely that competition is unnecessary on the post-Covid railway.

Competition is irrelevant at the moment as all operators are directly controlled by DfT - and there is talk of getting rid of operator-specific tickets.

The fact is that those services are operated by TPE and given the current backlog in training which already exists there would be no logic in making things worse by a major reorganisation of routes.

If we are talking Covid related, we are talking about a short term adjustment. We could easily see passenger volumes increase beyond 2019 levels even if commuting is reduced to 2 days per week on average (particularly in to cities where the car is a realistic alternative mode of transport). Where it really appears to fall is in to London because there is not the same level of car ridership to soak up a fall in those who commute 4 days per week (5 days ceased long ago). And yes, competition in this sense is not relevant and I would concede that it is less relevant under the new model proposed by the DfT.

If we are talking long-term, then there is no case for reductions of 20%. Long term we are looking at 400m trains, increased capacity for commuter trains, TPE to be replaced by NPR (probably still branded TPE and mostly using existing track) running 200m trains and 6-8 tph between Leeds & Manc. XC will disappear - if we’re seriously looking at reductions today, there will be no market worth providing an Aberdeen to Penzance service.
 

DB

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I would drop the Bradford - Skipton services. Folk can change at Shipley.

That wouldn't work as the Bradford FS to Leeds services don't run much after the evening rush hour so connections wouldn't be adequate.

Bradford is also the nearest city to the mid and upper Aire valley towns so removing direct trains, especially from Keighley which is by far the largest town, would disrupt a significant commuter flow.
 
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jfisher21

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The Dalston Junction - New Cross route can go - always empty even pre covid
Maybe get rid of London bridge - beckenham junction. Only really affects birkbeck which has trams as well. Or run as a portion of the Sutton service, splitting at Crystal palace.

On avanti I guess the Blackpool services can go. 2tph to Manchester and Birmingham. 1tph Glasgow should stay.

Bristol fasts would have to go. Plymouth terminator might go too!
 

Dave91131

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A very interesting thread with a variety of ideas and suggestions. I'll sleep on a few of my own and report back..

For me the aim would be to have services which are sufficiently frequent (as well as long and comfortable) to keep passengers "interested" whilst at the same time leaving sufficient "breathing space" to give the timetable some resilience in the event of disruption - especially at pinch points such as Woolmer Green and Birmingham New Street to name a couple..
 

Aictos

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So what about the WCML IC services to Liverpool, are they that unimportant to lose all their IC services to London or are you expecting people to get a all stations service to London?

If the latter then why not Birmingham as they have the choice of three TOCs to get to and from Birmingham.
 

gingerheid

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I suspect that there isn't a complete overlap between services that could be withdrawn without too many people noticing and services where withdrawal would save money, and that this will lead to a tremendous mess.

I presume that after high frequency long distance journeys, the main targets are going to be peak commuter services where the train is unused during the rest of the day, high frequency metro style services, fast or semi fast services on mainlines with services on different calling patterns, Sunday services or services that tend to rely on overtime working, and then off peak services on rural lines?
 
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hooverboy

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Thameslink services every 15 minutes from bedford must be looking like a potential victim,along with the st albans stopper/luton-rainham being looked at.

I think GTL could probably get away with doing something like a 20 minute service without too much damage to reputation ,but going end to end from bedford-brighon, instead of the alternation between the brighton service and the other terminating at gatwick/three bridges.5 minutes extra wait for a service would be tolerable for most folks,15 mins would not, and that would also clear up a bit of the pathing congestion through the core, which is clearly not up to 24 trains per hour or whatever was touted at the time, somthing like 12 to 15 tph optimal.

As for the St Albans stopper,that could be stretched into luton without too much hassle.

As for the rest of EMR land, the london based services and the corby's probably wouldn't be affected, But i would wager some of the regional services might get a bit of a trim.Also that the 156's would probably be retained longer than planned, probably down to southern not being able to release all their 170's, and the 156's being cheaper to run.
 

hooverboy

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Thameslink services every 15 minutes from bedford must be looking like a potential victim,along with the st albans stopper/luton-rainham being looked at.

I think GTL could probably get away with doing something like a 20 minute service without too much damage to reputation ,but going end to end from bedford-brighon, instead of the alternation between the brighton service and the other terminating at gatwick/three bridges.5 minutes extra wait for a service would be tolerable for most folks,15 mins would not, and that would also clear up a bit of the pathing congestion through the core, which is clearly not up to 24 trains per hour or whatever was touted at the time, somthing like 12 to 15 tph optimal.

As for the St Albans stopper,that could be stretched into luton without too much hassle.

As for the rest of EMR land, the london based services and the corby's probably wouldn't be affected, But i would wager some of the regional services might get a bit of a trim.Also that the 156's would probably be retained longer than planned, probably down to southern not being able to release all their 170's, and the 156's being cheaper to run.
I should add to EMR london services, they would most likely bin the non-stop from market harborough-london,with an interim stop at kettering instead to link up with EMR electrics
 

infobleep

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The key thing to me is that vital regional services which already have services of one train an hour or less, should not see reductions. Reductions should be made on routes with frequent services, but for which the justification for that frequency has fallen away.

Going to twice an hour on Manchester/Birmingham - London is an example where this is sensible. Thinning out some Thameslink core frequency might be another.
I wonder if the two fast services from Reading to Redhill (with one continuing to Gatwick Airport) would be reduced back to 1 an hour? It's currently a trail. I guess it depends on whether they make enough money from running 2 an hour.

If less trains ran to Waterloo, hopefully fast trains could stop at Clapham Junction in the peaks. Currently the 07:33 and 08:33 Woking to Waterloo stopping trains do serve stations between Surbtion and Waterloo, so that is an improvement for some passengers, thanks to covid-19.
 

northernchris

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I would drop the Bradford - Skipton services. Folk can change at Shipley.

Also the Knottingley - Leeds via Wakefield can terminate at Wakey like it used to do.

Cross country services via Leeds should be cut back and not continue north of Leeds.

Terminating the Knottingley - Leeds at Wakefield wouldn't save any resources as it still requires 3 diagrams, so the only saving would be fuel on the Leeds - Wakefield section

There must be some efficiencies to be gained through better use of resources. Using the Bradford - Huddersfield service as an example, it currently has around 20-25 minutes layover at each end. Assuming the Huddersfield - Castleford service returns to hourly in the future the timings would allow this to be joined up with the Bradford service (with some timetable tweaks) so 3 units and crews rather than 4 are required. Piccadilly - Buxton would be the same, when it first went to half-hourly in May 2018 it required 5 diagrams, then when the Blackpool - Hazel Grove service took one of its paths at Piccadilly causing a recast it increased to 6 diagrams.

I'd look at these options first to see what can be gained in savings, along with looking to remove any services where units only work a couple of services a day in the peak. Ideally all local lines in to major cities would have a train at least every 30 minutes, and TPE would have a 15 minute frequency between Manchester and Leeds formed of 5 and 6 coach trains. The missing Newcastle - Manchester Airport could be permanently withdrawn so Liverpool retains its 2 fast trains to Manchester, Leeds and York and it's one less service per hour through Castlefield
 

edwin_m

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Some may be thinking, but nobody has pointed out on this thread as far as I can see, that there are two effects here.

The first is a general reduction in travel due to the direct effect of Covid (people not wanting to be infected, this affecting trains more than cars) and the indirect effects (many reasons for people to travel don't currently apply). Those will I hope bounce back reasonably quickly whenever we have enough people vaccinated to remove social distancing requirements.

The second is a permanent shift away from working in city centres. This particularly affects the work done in city centre offices, because much of it can be done anywhere. When office use is no longer restricted them some but not all will come back. Many employees prefer the ability to work at home, at least some of the time, and employers have seen that it's possible to maintain productivity even when managers can't see what their staff are doing. City centre retail also falls into the same category, because some of the shift to online purchasing will also be permanent.

The first of these effects can be managed via temporary reduction in services, which has largely happened already. Cost savings are small but people factors such as staff self-isolating and loss of currency in route knowledge make these cuts inevitable. In most cases the trains and other assets are still available and can be brought back to full use when the need arises, although there will be some time lag related to staff training. Over time this will become more difficult as rolling stock leases expire and staff numbers reduce by natural wastage.

The second effect is more significant and largely applies to commuting. There is probably some effect on business travel too, though I have pointed out elsewhere that many businesses already turned a lot of meetings into teleconferences after 2008 so some of this effect may have happened pre-Covid. I'd agree with those that have said the response should be to scale back the peak extra services which determine a lot of the costs of the railway - this applies particularly to London commuting as in many other cities the peak augmentation is minimal. On most lines the off-peak service is a reasonably attractive frequency and I believe usage will recover fairly well, including people who may visit the office for a specific meeting in the middle of the day rather than staying there nine to five.

I'd say it's still too early to tell on the frequent intercity services. Apart from Cross Country most of the fleets concerned are locked in by contract for several years yet, and nobody else is likely to want to lease these fleets so the leasing companies have no incentive to agree to those contracts being terminated. There may be short term measures such as re-deploying bi-mode 80x and mothballing an equivalent number of Voyagers to increase Cross Country capacity and reduce carbon emissions, but I'd suggest we leave it a couple of years before doing anything irreversible.
 

185

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Think there should be reductions in the daytime 9.30-15.30 frequency, plus some reductions in the evening, however a requirement to operate first & last trains should be to made to protect jobs - primarily key workers.

During lockdown, the interpretation of 'reducing services' by Northern was to cut all trains after 9pm ....whilst Transport for Wales are still abandoning several trains into England after 10pm.
 

yorksrob

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Think there should be reductions in the daytime 9.30-15.30 frequency, plus some reductions in the evening, however a requirement to operate first & last trains should be to made to protect jobs.

During lockdown, the interpretation of this by Northern was to cut all trains after 9pm ....whilst Transport for Wales are still abandoning several trains into England after 10pm.

That's a very good point. Nibbling away at first and last trains should be avoided as this will have disproportionate impact on the usefulness of the service.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's a very good point. Nibbling away at first and last trains should be avoided as this will have disproportionate impact on the usefulness of the service.

Yes, agreed. I'd concentrate on finding an all-day clockface frequency that works to satisfy the demand, and where applicable run longer trains to make up for it at busy times, and thin the service at the extremes of the day (e.g. the way Merseyrail does 4tph during the day but 2tph very early and after about 1900) but don't start late or stop early for the reasons outlined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

We *should* have frequent services where there is a commercial case to do so.

Provided the service is punctual and reliable. That's what's been destroyed by running too many short trains.

If there's a solid commercial case for it, there should also be a commercial case for building out the infrastructure to allow it to be done reliably (e.g. the Castlefield work). If there isn't a case for the infrastructure, then the case for the service is weak due to its negative effects.

The mantra, chanted over and over, needs to be "the odd spare path is a good thing".
 

The Ham

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I'd say it's still too early to tell on the frequent intercity services. Apart from Cross Country most of the fleets concerned are locked in by contract for several years yet, and nobody else is likely to want to lease these fleets so the leasing companies have no incentive to agree to those contracts being terminated. There may be short term measures such as re-deploying bi-mode 80x and mothballing an equivalent number of Voyagers to increase Cross Country capacity and reduce carbon emissions, but I'd suggest we leave it a couple of years before doing anything irreversible

I was thinking a similar thing (other than scraping the 22x fleet) and replacing with 80x's as demand increases. However the 80x's are used in long distance services, which although currently significantly suppressed because of people limiting the travel that they are doing for things like going and seeing family. As these are likely to rebound the fastest once restrictions are lifted is probably not a great idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So, I'll repeat again....

Over what timescale is this 20% reduction?

Is this in say 5 years time, once the Covid period is ended and normal growth can resume?

Or is this in 30 years' time?


A 20% reduction on 2019 demand takes it back to the level it was in 2011.

Apply some organic growth on that and you'll soon be needing 2019 levels of service to accommodate it, perhaps tailored to be less "peaky".

Recasting to bake in reduced levels of service risks being a very short-sighted move.

Indeed, the other thing to be aware of is that in some services, even if they saw a 30% fall in passenger numbers would still not be enough to actually shorten trains.

For example a train with a loading of 120% would then be 84% full. Whilst that could be shortened from 12 to 8 coaches that would make it 124% loaded.
 
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edwin_m

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I was thinking a similar thing (other than scraping the 22x fleet) and replacing with 80x's as demand increases. However the 80x's are used in long distance services, which although currently significantly suppressed because of people limiting the travel that they are doing for things like going and seeing family. As these are likely to rebound the fastest once restrictions are lifted is probably not a great idea.
That's why I suggested mothballing rather than scrapping the 22x.
 

xtpe

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I can see TPE and Northern being merged short term as the government have already mentioned about Tocs duplicating routes and with the Transpennine Route Upgrade it would be easier to deal with just one Toc instead of two, also easy cost savings with staff duplication across the two Tocs. The Manchester Airport / Liverpool to Scotland could be brought into AWC or even scrapped completely until an upturn in passenger numbers.
 

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The Manchester Airport / Liverpool to Scotland could be brought into AWC or even scrapped completely until an upturn in passenger numbers.

Scrapping would be silly, it's a well-used route. It could indeed perhaps go into Avanti, though, or indeed back into XC, it's a bad fit for TPE, being the only truly InterCity route they have.
 

HST43257

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Scrapping would be silly, it's a well-used route. It could indeed perhaps go into Avanti, though, or indeed back into XC, it's a bad fit for TPE, being the only truly InterCity route they have.
Is Liverpool to Newcastle/Edinburgh not an intercity service? Limited stops (in cities or large towns) and fairly quick
 

Bletchleyite

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Is Liverpool to Newcastle/Edinburgh not an intercity service? Limited stops (in cities or large towns) and fairly quick

The Newcastle-Edinburgh bit probably is, but I think that bit is pointless duplication of existing LNER and XC services and needs binning off.

The rest of TPE is regional express, primarily serving lots of overlapping short journeys. There are (as a comparison) plenty of 2 to 3-hour RE runs in Germany.
 
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