If BR carried out the APT Programme

[rdlover777]

If BR had carried out the APT Programme to the end, what would the railways like today and how many Class 370 would their be?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If BR had carried out the APT Programme to the end, what would the railways like today and how many Class 370 would their be?

What would have been the life expectancy of the Class 370 units and in 2016, how much longer would they still be in service?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

My gut feeling is that had the program not been axed, they'd have been approaching retirement by now. I think they would have been retired by 2020 in any case as a result of the disability access regs. Would presumably have not been worth Virgin West Coast doing the necessary work to meet the 2020 regs.

 

[Polarbear]

Phase one of the original plan was for a fleet of 60 APTs on the West Coast routes. If that had gone ahead, service introduction would have been in around 1983-84 so they would be around 30 years old now & looking for replacement.

Initial thoughts were to re-design the train so that the power car's weren't located in the centre, as this was seen as a major achilles heel of the design of the 370s. That would have taken some time & may have pushed back the introduction date of a fleet of BR inspired tilting trains.

Plans after that were somewhat vague, but I think APT would have been introduced on a newly electrified Midland Main Line next. Great Western & East Coast lines would have been left in the initial stages as they had both been equipped with HST's.

 

[BestWestern]

Do we think the gas turbine technology would have been persued? Or would we have seen just electrics? Presumably, had the project continued, the Intercity 225 would never have existed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would expect just EMU.

 

[edwin_m]

Do we think the gas turbine technology would have been persued? Or would we have seen just electrics? Presumably, had the project continued, the Intercity 225 would never have existed?

Yes, the gas turbine was abandoned after the experimental unit because of the energy costs after the oil crisis. Interestingly the French TGV did exactly the same, though they did get some gas turbines into service on more conventional trains. If the gas turbine had been considered economic then it would no doubt have been fitted instead of diesel engines to one or other of the new fleets ordered since then.

The APT had a high degree of tilt which made for a very small cross-section, but it was soon realised that this amount of tilt was unnecessary and indeed made people feel ill when they were aware of curving but did not experience the normal outward pull. So an APT production build would have had a larger cross-section, which would probably have allowed non-tilting versions to be ordered too.

This is sort of what was going to happen with IC225, with the body sized for limited tilt and the intention being to order a fleet of tilting versions for the WCML. It was claimed that IC225 incorporated some of the APT innovations but I'm not sure I buy it myself:
- Tilt: not fitted to IC225, eventually appeared on Pendolinos and Voyagers having been developed mostly independently on the Continent.
- Hydrokinetic brake: never used again as far as I know. Not necessary at 125mph and apparently not at 140mph either, and the move to distributed power made electric braking a better bet.
- Aluminium bodyshells: Not used on IC225 but used on various trains since.
- Fully sprung motor within body with cardan shaft drive: IC225 came up with a better solution, though Pendolinos use something similar.
- C-ATP (early ATP system): Not fitted to IC225 but ATP systems now widespread.

 

[Railsigns]

- C-ATP (early ATP system): Not fitted to IC225 but ATP systems now widespread.

C-APT, not C-ATP. It supervised the driver's observance of speed limits but not signal aspects, so it wasn't an ATP system.

 

[Harbornite]

Had APT gone into squadron service, we might not have seen proposals for the intercity 250 and class 93s.

 

[Cowley]

I wonder what the second generation of APTs would have looked like? If the equipment was in the driving cars and therefore no passenger seating in them? I suppose a completely redesigned cab with contemporary late 80s styling along the lines of the class 91, In fact would it have looked much like the 91 but perhaps sleeker?
Also I wonder what the build quality would have been like? Probably not up to the standards of the 125s I suppose.

 

[randyrippley]

Do we think the gas turbine technology would have been persued? Or would we have seen just electrics? Presumably, had the project continued, the Intercity 225 would never have existed?

The gas turbine was only ever a stop-gap propulsion unit while they got high-speed overhead line equipment sorted. It was never intended as a real solution. Besides which, Leyland pulled the plug on their turbine development

 

[AnonymousUser1]

APT -S would look like a tilting IC225

 

[Harbornite]

I said earlier that BR might not have proposed the Intercity 250, but I take this back because the IC250 would have been derived from the APT and class 91.

 

[Cowley]

I've never seen that before, did you just draw it?

 

[Harbornite]

I've never seen that before, did you just draw it?

Obviously!

 

[deltic1989]

I've never seen that before, did you just draw it?

A full size mock up of the Intercity 250 nose section and cab can be seen in the Museum Shed at Swanwick Junction, on the Midland Railway (Butterley).

 

[Cowley]

I didn't know that. Thanks

 

[BestWestern]

I said earlier that BR might not have proposed the Intercity 250, but I take this back because the IC250 would have been derived from the APT and class 91.

When was that developed? After the Class 91 presumably, so we're talking not long before privatisation?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I said earlier that BR might not have proposed the Intercity 250, but I take this back because the IC250 would have been derived from the APT and class 91.

Does the front of that remind anyone else a little bit of a class 373?

 

[rdlover777]

I said earlier that BR might not have proposed the Intercity 250, but I take this back because the IC250 would have been derived from the APT and class 91.

Am i the only one who thinks this looks like a eurostar?

 

[Harbornite]

Am i the only one who thinks this looks like a eurostar?

Now that you mention it, I can see what you mean.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Am i the only one who thinks this looks like a eurostar?

which has overtones of APT and TGV in it's styling , and arguably also similarities with the HST, TEE units and bullet trains ...

basically there seems to be four schools of high speed train frontal design

- 'bullet'

- ' pug nose streamlining ' e.g. HST , class 91 , class 89, class92 and to some extent class 90 - HST reflecting it's origins and the 90/ 91 /92 due to the projected/ actual mixed traffic use ...

- TGV /APT / Eurostar

- 'duck billed'

 

[sprinterguy]

Does the front of that remind anyone else a little bit of a class 373?

It's certainly something that I have noted before, as the two designs were contemporary I do not find it surprising. The cab mock-up at the Midland Railway Butterly suggests that the IC250 would have been the more striking, though, compared to the fairly reserved styling of the Eurostar.

When was that developed? After the Class 91 presumably, so we're talking not long before privatisation?

There's plenty of additional information on the NRM blog and Wikipedia sites:
http://blog.nrm.org.uk/the-locomotive-that-doesnt-exist/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250

The project was announced in November 1990 (hot on the heels of ECML electrification), with an expected in-service date of 1995. The project was cancelled due to a shortage of funding (and looming privatisation) during 1992.

I said earlier that BR might not have proposed the Intercity 250, but I take this back because the IC250 would have been derived from the APT and class 91.

If APT-S had entered service as planned then we would not have seen the IC250 proposals, as the Intercity 250 was planned as modernisation of the West Coast main line in lieu of the previous, failed APT project. Yet another tantalising "might have been" for the WCML.

The Intercity 250 project was quite distinct from the APT as it would have used TGV-style sections of new cut-off route to avoid the most sinuous sections of the WCML in the south and upgraded infrastructure elsewhere to realise improved journey times, rather than tilt.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is "pug" style effectively banned nowadays with the current crash regs?

 

[sprinterguy]

Is "pug" style effectively banned nowadays with the current crash regs?

Would the new class 68 and 88 locos not qualify in this category? The raked back angle of the upper cab seems similar to that of the class 90, IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is "pug" style effectively banned nowadays with the current crash regs?

I think it's mainly that it looks dated. I don't see why you couldn't have a sacrificial fibreglass snout in any shape you like provided the properly designed and shaped structure is there underneath.

 

[edwin_m]

There are now requirements for energy absorption material in unit ends. Makes sod all difference in a major crash but might help in level crossing accidents and more minor train collisions. This, rather than streamlining, is probably the reason for the more sloped noses on recent designs.

 

[Helvellyn]

There's a great website about the APT-P units - http://www.apt-p.com/aptindex.htm

It also includes a page about actual and proposed formations.

 

[Harbornite]

The project was announced in November 1990 (hot on the heels of ECML electrification), with an expected in-service date of 1995. The project was cancelled due to a shortage of funding (and looming privatisation) during 1992.

If APT-S had entered service as planned then we would not have seen the IC250 proposals, as the Intercity 250 was planned as modernisation of the West Coast main line in lieu of the previous, failed APT project. Yet another tantalising "might have been" for the WCML.

The Intercity 250 project was quite distinct from the APT as it would have used TGV-style sections of new cut-off route to avoid the most sinuous sections of the WCML in the south and upgraded infrastructure elsewhere to realise improved journey times, rather than tilt.

You've explained it well. Makes you wonder how long they would have lasted in service had they been ordered, we may not have seen pendolinos until the 2010s and they would probably be a different variant. There's plenty of what-ifs to consider,

 

[Cowley]

This has been a really interesting thread to read thanks everyone. I didn't really know anything about it so it was good to learn about it.