If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[D Williams]

I suspect that the ORR would be concerned at any reduction in white collar staff if that was accompanied by a reduction in ensuring compliance.

On some heritage railways there are paid staff now doing the job of what was formerly undertaken by volunteers because the HR can not attract enough volunteers for that role. Examples being reservations staff, ticket office staff and TTIs (Travelling Ticket Inspectors).

If Heritage Railways have to pay staff for the operational i.e. "playing trains" roles then they will not be in business for much longer. These railways only exist because enthusiastic and dedicated people are prepared to do something for nothing. On my travels around some of the smaller heritage lines last year it was noticeable that some are in terminal decline.

 

[Ken H]

If Heritage Railways have to pay staff for the operational i.e. "playing trains" roles then they will not be in business for much longer. These railways only exist because enthusiastic and dedicated people are prepared to do something for nothing. On my travels around some of the smaller heritage lines last year it was noticeable that some are in terminal decline.

I wonder if the Covid episode means some wont go back volunteering.
1 fear of infection
2 habit gone
3 got older, less fit etc

I know amateur sports need people to support the athletes, but those volunteers have gone.

 

[railfan99]

I wonder if the Covid episode means some wont go back volunteering.
1 fear of infection
2 habit gone
3 got older, less fit etc

When in UK late last year, a couple of volunteers remarked upon this. Apparently a problem.

Some younger volunteers had emerged but insufficient numbers, as jobs/relationships/children are #1.

 

[Alanko]

When in UK late last year, a couple of volunteers remarked upon this. Apparently a problem.

Some younger volunteers had emerged but insufficient numbers, as jobs/relationships/children are #1.

At my local heritage railway the volunteer demographic is like an inverted bell curve; teenagers and retirees.

When I eventually get to retire there will be a lot of us with coding/programming skills and far fewer of us able to do any sort of engineering work. Anybody can polish some brass or scrub a toilet, but who will be around to change a traction motor?

I think this general skill fade will hit diesel before steam in preservation.

 

[Pinza-C55]

If the NYMR or Swanage were to fail there'd be a good case for them to be taken over by Network Rail and in the case of the NYMR extended to Rillington. I fully expect flak from NYMR members for saying this.

 

[Titfield]

If Heritage Railways have to pay staff for the operational i.e. "playing trains" roles then they will not be in business for much longer. These railways only exist because enthusiastic and dedicated people are prepared to do something for nothing. On my travels around some of the smaller heritage lines last year it was noticeable that some are in terminal decline.

Swanage Railway employs paid ticket office and reservations staff. It has contracted out cleaning to a third party.

If the NYMR or Swanage were to fail there'd be a good case for them to be taken over by Network Rail and in the case of the NYMR extended to Rillington. I fully expect flak from NYMR members for saying this.

The track bed between the Network Rail Boundary near Worgret Junction and the Northbrook Road Bridge in Swanage is owned by Dorset Council, the tracked bed and Swanage Station site is owned by Swanage Town Council. Both are leased to Swanage Railway. Not withstanding the ownership of the physical track itself (which presumably belongs to Swanage Railway because they reinstated it after it was torn up in 1972) the line is physically connected to the national rail network and the signalling system is also connected to the ROC (Railway Operating Centre) at Basingstoke.

Swanage Railway is committed to operating two trial service periods between Wareham and Swanage- one of 60 days and one of 90 days. The 60 day trial period was delivered in 2017 (with hired in rolling stock). The second period is still to be operated with refurbished DMUs funded by iirc Dorset Council. The delay is due to late delivery of the dmus (2018 2019), then covid (2020 2021) then the economic situation (2022).

Given the relatively poor road network on the Isle of Purbeck a daily rail service would be of benefit particularly in the summer. Funding has been granted for a study into the viability of operating services between Swanage and Wareham.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I wonder how much of volunteering on Heritage Railway is driven by a love of engineering (be that civil, mechanical, electrical), history, transport (railways specifically) or just an interest / desire to do something or meet people.

Quite a few of the volunteers in various charities I know, do not (or at least did not at the start) have a burning desire to volunteer for that organisation because of what the charity stood for, but volunteered to do something useful and found that organisation to be friendly and welcoming and so once "inducted" gradually got more and more involved.

Certainly volunteering in passenger services on a heritage railway is a great way to interact with the general public and make a useful contribution. Very different to say the demands of being a driver, fireman, guard or signaller. If anything heritage railways probably have the greatest variety of volunteer roles and therefore there is something for everyone.

I know. The reason why the Swanage was one of my first thoughts was because it goes from "somewhere to somewhere" ie the main line to a tourist destination and should arguably never have been closed. The NYMR wouldn't (I think) be viable in its current form if it was a basic modern branch line but with the addition of the "missing link" I think it would be.

 

[Titfield]

I know. The reason why the Swanage was one of my first thoughts was because it goes from "somewhere to somewhere" ie the main line to a tourist destination and should arguably never have been closed. The NYMR wouldn't (I think) be viable in its current form if it was a basic modern branch line but with the addition of the "missing link" I think it would be.

The issue with the Swanage branch line is that realistically there is only passenger demand during the summer months. In the autumn and winter Swanage is very very quiet indeed. I occasionally travel on the bus between Wareham and Swanage and in the winter there is usually about 10 passengers on the bus travelling between the two towns. ( I discount passengers with ENCTS cards who travel within Swanage and within Wareham).

 

[Pinza-C55]

The issue with the Swanage branch line is that realistically there is only passenger demand during the summer months. In the autumn and winter Swanage is very very quiet indeed. I occasionally travel on the bus between Wareham and Swanage and in the winter there is usually about 10 passengers on the bus travelling between the two towns. ( I discount passengers with ENCTS cards who travel within Swanage and within Wareham).

That would be true of most branch lines to tourist destinations such as Middlesbrough to Whitby and of course was one of the reasons given for closure originally. However things have changed dramatically since the Beeching era and if the government is serious in their apparent intent to make car travel increasingly expensive then the Swanage branch integrated into the national network with through trains to Wareham and beyond would make sense. Personally I think railways such be run as a vital public service irrespective of seasonal fluctuations.

 

[nanstallon]

The Okehampton reopening, which needed a complete refettling of the track, has been successful, and may be seen as a good precedent. See also the reopening of many formerly goods only lines in the Cardiff area. The real difficulty, though, is where track has been lifted and the old formation has been destroyed and/or built upon - that is where it gets really expensive. Still, the Waverley line as far as Tweedbank got rebuilt and if we can afford the HS2 vanity project, we can surely rebuild Pickering to Rillington to give a direct route from Whitby to York. I hope that wouldn't lead to losing the Whitby to Middlesbrough line!

 

[nw1]

Swanage I'd put in the same bracket as Okehampton - it needs reopening as a "proper" branch line to reduce the number of cars through Corfe Castle.

Though I do genuinely wonder, looking at a map, if bypassing it on the trackbed and providing a frequent electric bus service from Wareham station with through ticketing might have been a better plan. It'd be great to make Corfe Castle itself car-free (it really suffers from the traffic), but there's no other sensible route to Swanage itself.

Given how popular Purbeck has been as a tourist destination in the past 30 years or so I do think that re-purposing Swanage as a regular railway could well work. You have Corfe and Swanage itself as tourist destinations - and they would probably be the only stations actually required. Would probably do well between about April and October, at least, and the remainder of the year you might get commuter traffic into Bournemouth if you ran the service through to Bournemouth - I think a through Bournemouth service would be needed for it to see its full potential though do recognise that would need 2 units whereas a Wareham shuttle could perhaps get away with 1.

 

[railfan99]

The Okehampton reopening, which needed a complete refettling of the track, has been successful, and may be seen as a good precedent. See also the reopening of many formerly goods only lines in the Cardiff area. The real difficulty, though, is where track has been lifted and the old formation has been destroyed and/or built upon - that is where it gets really expensive. Still, the Waverley line as far as Tweedbank got rebuilt and if we can afford the HS2 vanity project, we can surely rebuild Pickering to Rillington to give a direct route from Whitby to York. I hope that wouldn't lead to losing the Whitby to Middlesbrough line!

When I stayed overnight in Whitby a decade ago, I struggled to obtain a room in an historic B and B.

Is it still a popular destination?

 

[Pinza-C55]

When I stayed overnight in Whitby a decade ago, I struggled to obtain a room in an historic B and B.

Is it still a popular destination?

Increasingly popular I would say since Covid forced people to take holidays in the UK. And even more busy when the Hawsker potash mine gets into full production.

 

[nanstallon]

Increasingly popular I would say since Covid forced people to take holidays in the UK. And even more busy when the Hawsker potash mine gets into full production.

Rightly so; a splendid part of the country, and once the centre of a network of gorgeously scenic lines. Sadly, I don't think we shall ever see trains again through still beautiful Robin Hood's Bay on their way from Whitby to Scarborough, or indeed through still rail served (goods only) Boulby to Middlesbrough.

 

[paul1609]

I know. The reason why the Swanage was one of my first thoughts was because it goes from "somewhere to somewhere" ie the main line to a tourist destination and should arguably never have been closed. The NYMR wouldn't (I think) be viable in its current form if it was a basic modern branch line but with the addition of the "missing link" I think it would be.

I have no connection with the NYMR but if you look at Google Maps the trackbed south of Pickering Station is almost indistinct and would need a lot of property to be acquired and demolished, especially when you consider than new level crossings are not allowed on the national network. Uckfield to Lewes where the trackbed has been protected and is a similar distance was costed at £140 million for a basic railway 20 years ago and deemed as unviable. Can't see that the NYMR extended to Malton would produce anywhere like as good a case as Uckfield tbh.

Given how popular Purbeck has been as a tourist destination in the past 30 years or so I do think that re-purposing Swanage as a regular railway could well work. You have Corfe and Swanage itself as tourist destinations - and they would probably be the only stations actually required. Would probably do well between about April and October, at least, and the remainder of the year you might get commuter traffic into Bournemouth if you ran the service through to Bournemouth - I think a through Bournemouth service would be needed for it to see its full potential though do recognise that would need 2 units whereas a Wareham shuttle could perhaps get away with 1.

It would all depend on how big a subsidy somebody was willing to spend on the line.
The reality is that Swanage a town with a population of 10,000 is never going to economically support a railway line.
On the tourist side the issue is that Swanage is too far away from the major population centres to be aday trip destination, from most of the south east it and Weymouth are short break destinations. Short break means you want to visit the area away from Swanage/ Corfe Castle. if you want to camp or stay in a caravan or visit places like Lulworth Cove and Monkeyworld or the Tank Museum or Studland Bay for all but the most hardened public transport enthusiasts it means car.

 

[nw1]

It would all depend on how big a subsidy somebody was willing to spend on the line.
The reality is that Swanage a town with a population of 10,000 is never going to economically support a railway line.

I'd say a population of around 10,000 is about the threshold for an own railway line. For example I can see that, if it was not on the main line to Salisbury, Romsey (pop. around 15,000) would probably support its own branch.

However I do recognise that Swanage has an unusual geography which means that it's a long way round to get to Bournemouth or Poole and that might limit the usage of a regular daytime commuter/shopping style service.

On the tourist side the issue is that Swanage is too far away from the major population centres to be aday trip destination, from most of the south east it and Weymouth are short break destinations. Short break means you want to visit the area away from Swanage/ Corfe Castle. if you want to camp or stay in a caravan or visit places like Lulworth Cove and Monkeyworld or the Tank Museum or Studland Bay for all but the most hardened public transport enthusiasts it means car.

Swanage is an easy daytrip destination for the Solent area, certainly, at least by car (despite the regular delays on the A351). A rail journey would actually end up being quicker than the car from, say, Southampton, as you wouldn't have to battle with the Bournemouth-Poole suburban roads and their heavy traffic, nor the A351 north of Wareham. And arguably Purbeck is doable as a daytrip from the London area too - so I can see a regular service could work if the connections off London services were good.

And besides Corfe and Swanage themselves you get access to the coastal scenery, and some exceptionally good walking routes.

If there was a good bus network (in the summer) and a cheap weekend bus/train ticket, with a bus linking say Swanage, Corfe and Lulworth (would have to probably go via Wareham) I can see that could work for the weekend trip market. Train down there, then use the bus to get around during your stay, or train to get into Bournemouth.

 

[Titfield]

I'd say a population of around 10,000 is about the threshold for an own railway line. For example I can see that, if it was not on the main line to Salisbury, Romsey (pop. around 15,000) would probably support its own branch.

However I do recognise that Swanage has an unusual geography which means that it's a long way round to get to Bournemouth or Poole and that might limit the usage of a regular daytime commuter/shopping style service.



Swanage is an easy daytrip destination for the Solent area, certainly, at least by car (despite the regular delays on the A351). A rail journey would actually end up being quicker than the car from, say, Southampton, as you wouldn't have to battle with the Bournemouth-Poole suburban roads and their heavy traffic, nor the A351 north of Wareham. And arguably Purbeck is doable as a daytrip from the London area too - so I can see a regular service could work if the connections off London services were good.

And besides Corfe and Swanage themselves you get access to the coastal scenery, and some exceptionally good walking routes.

If there was a good bus network (in the summer) and a cheap weekend bus/train ticket, with a bus linking say Swanage, Corfe and Lulworth (would have to probably go via Wareham) I can see that could work for the weekend trip market. Train down there, then use the bus to get around during your stay, or train to get into Bournemouth.

(1) The population may be 10,000 but with a very skewed demographic towards the older population.
(2) Getting to Coastal Bournemouth is best via the chain ferry albeit with a cost penalty.
(3) There is a good bus network in the summer with the Purbeck Breezer 50 every 30 minutes linking Bournemouth and Swanage and the Purbeck Breezer 40 every 60 minutes linking Poole and Swanage supplemented by a service linking Wareham and Forest / Caravan / Touring Parks every 60 minutes giving a service every 30 minutes along the core route. There is also a frequent service to Lulworth Cove.
(4) Purbeck Breezer (Morebus) do offer some financially attractive family and small group tickets.
(5) The ideal solution would be TfED Transport for East Dorset which would see integration of rail and bus, put into council ownership the Sandbanks Ferry AND find a way to run both heritage steam and a modern diesel service on the Swanage branch line.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I have no connection with the NYMR but if you look at Google Maps the trackbed south of Pickering Station is almost indistinct and would need a lot of property to be acquired and demolished, especially when you consider than new level crossings are not allowed on the national network. Uckfield to Lewes where the trackbed has been protected and is a similar distance was costed at £140 million for a basic railway 20 years ago and deemed as unviable. Can't see that the NYMR extended to Malton would produce anywhere like as good a case as Uckfield tbh.


I don't want to debate this at length because a) we are talking hypothetically about something which will probably never happen and b) debates on social media don't generally affect real world events anyway. The reason why the trackbed is indistinct is because it was mostly on the level through fields. It was obviously out of the price limit for the NYMR but if the government genuinely wanted to reopen disused railways, which I don't think they do, they would wave a magic wand and lift the "ban" on new level crossings. I don't support HS2 and I think that if the prodigious amount of money can be stumped by the taxpayer for it, it can be found for smaller schemes. End of rant.

 

[Titfield]

I don't want to debate this at length because a) we are talking hypothetically about something which will probably never happen and b) debates on social media don't generally affect real world events anyway. The reason why the trackbed is indistinct is because it was mostly on the level through fields. It was obviously out of the price limit for the NYMR but if the government genuinely wanted to reopen disused railways, which I don't think they do, they would wave a magic wand and lift the "ban" on new level crossings. I don't support HS2 and I think that if the prodigious amount of money can be stumped by the taxpayer for it, it can be found for smaller schemes. End of rant.

The benefit: cost ratio of "reopening disused railways" is generally speaking hopeless beyond belief because of the costs of land acquisition, relaying track, installing signalling, building stations etc etc.

Which is why IMHO the few heritage railway lines which are extant and genuinely go from somewhere to somewhere linking reasonable size populations (and thus there is a demand beyond just tourism) and are already connected physically to the national rail network should be brought into the national rail network system. The costs relatively speaking are "buttons" in delivering more sustainable transport systems.

The three that spring to mind for me are the Swanage Railway, the East Lancs (linking Bury and Rawtenstall) and the West Somerset Railway. Intriguingly all three are what could be called "late closures"

 

[Gostav]

I think the problem with heritage railways in the UK are basically pure heritage lines where running steam trains for donations and ticket fare which lack of any diversified business income, such as real estate business, tourism business, buses & taxi business, etc.

 

[railfan99]

I think the problem with heritage railways in the UK are basically pure heritage lines where running steam trains for community donations and ticket fare which lack of any diversified business income, such as real estate business, tourism business, buses & taxi business, etc.

A small number manage to obtain revenue from train operating companies or other entities through use of a main line connection.

Wider tourism businesses and even real estate are subject to economic downturns as well.

Some of how businesses (including heritage railways) perform financially has to do with business acumen or its absence, but the general health of the economy is a major factor.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Ive Seen this one on national preservation forums: the Doon valley railway 1 mile long in Dunaskin Ayrshire ex G.S.W.R railway branch needs £250,000 to buy all the railway facility buildings the owner has stated BY THE 31 JULY OR THE RAILWAY COULD FACE CLOSURE WITHIN 6 MONTHS and are appealing to visitors rail enthusiasts alike for the fundraiser wether or not if this scale of money is possible to to get within the time frame and the cost of living constricting people how much they can give to the leisure industry fortunately the railway is running trains and open day events in the meantime

 

[Alanko]

I feel deeply sorry for the Doon Valley Railway. They previously had to move site and had funding withdrawn. At the same time they stuck to their brief; no Pacers or ropey Mk1s seem to have graced their metals. Bo'ness, Strathspey etc have, for various reasons, moved beyond keeping Barclay 0-4-0s in steam so it was nice that somewhere was still keeping little Scottish industrials alive.

I don't think the £250k is achievable, but would be delighted if they could keep going.


When I looked them up on Google maps it looks like there is far more than one mile of track extant. Is most of this unusable currently?

 

[A0wen]

I wonder if the Covid episode means some wont go back volunteering.
1 fear of infection
2 habit gone
3 got older, less fit etc

I know amateur sports need people to support the athletes, but those volunteers have gone.

2 and 3 perhaps.

1 - frankly such people were paranoid before Covid, so would have been scared of catching a cold, so wouldn't have done such volunteering anyway.

 

[D Williams]

Ive Seen this one on national preservation forums: the Doon valley railway 1 mile long in Dunaskin Ayrshire ex G.S.W.R railway branch needs £250,000 to buy all the railway facility buildings the owner has stated BY THE 31 JULY OR THE RAILWAY COULD FACE CLOSURE WITHIN 6 MONTHS and are appealing to visitors rail enthusiasts alike for the fundraiser wether or not if this scale of money is possible to to get within the time frame and the cost of living constricting people how much they can give to the leisure industry fortunately the railway is running trains and open day events in the meantime

So, to pose the question; who would put money into this appeal? I wonder how many passengers they carry / visitors they attract in a normal year. If they could borrow the cash or get a mortgage on the site would they have a chance of paying it back?

 

[Titfield]

A small number manage to obtain revenue from train operating companies or other entities through use of a main line connection.

Wider tourism businesses and even real estate are subject to economic downturns as well.

Some of how businesses (including heritage railways) perform financially has to do with business acumen or its absence, but the general health of the economy is a major factor.

Charters from the mainline using heritage railways as a destination generates a relatively modest amount of income (but nevertheless every penny counts).

Some have the good fortune of TOCS or leasing companies who require a section of track from training off the mainline or for storage of units.

These income streams do not appear to be the type that can be developed to any great extent as demand is driven by external factors.

 

[otaioengineer]

2 and 3 perhaps.

1 - frankly such people were paranoid before Covid, so would have been scared of catching a cold, so wouldn't have done such volunteering anyway.

I must disagree with your comment on 1. I have volunteered as a mainline loco support crew member and at a preservation centre since I retired over 15 years ago. I now have a form of cancer that results in my immune system being almost completely ineffective so I have to take precautions to shield myself from possible sources of infection. I still volunteer by working from home. Please do not label people in the same position as me, it is estimated that there are 500,000 in the U.K., as being paranoid. It is insulting.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't think the £250k is achievable, but would be delighted if they could keep going.

Considering it equates to around a decade of income it seems unlikely unless a wealthy individual takes pity on them.

 

[A0wen]

I must disagree with your comment on 1. I have volunteered as a mainline loco support crew member and at a preservation centre since I retired over 15 years ago. I now have a form of cancer that results in my immune system being almost completely ineffective so I have to take precautions to shield myself from possible sources of infection. I still volunteer by working from home. Please do not label people in the same position as me, it is estimated that there are 500,000 in the U.K., as being paranoid. It is insulting.

Serious question - pre Covid, were you actively taking steps to avoid contact in case of infection of a cold or flu for example? If you had an underlying condition at that time then it's reasonable you took sensible precautions long before 2020.

That's where I'm coming from - Covid has bred an irrational paranoia where people are now scared of an infection, yet weren't scared of a cold or flu.

 

[otaioengineer]

Serious question - pre Covid, were you actively taking steps to avoid contact in case of infection of a cold or flu for example? If you had an underlying condition at that time then it's reasonable you took sensible precautions long before 2020.

That's where I'm coming from - Covid has bred an irrational paranoia where people are now scared of an infection, yet weren't scared of a cold or flu.

I have been taking precautions since I was diagnosed pre Covid. Away from myself, there are many people taking sensible precautions since 2020 for many reasons, e.g. they are self-employed and cannot afford to take time off work, they may have someone in their household who is vulnerable, they may have had Covid and are suffering from long Covid or they may have witnessed a loved one die from Covid. There may be a few people who have an irrational paranoia of catching an infection but many more who are being careful for sound personal or medical reasons. You should not be presumptuous in your thinking.