If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[Techniquest]

I have been taking precautions since I was diagnosed pre Covid. Away from myself, there are many people taking sensible precautions since 2020 for many reasons, e.g. they are self-employed and cannot afford to take time off work, they may have someone in their household who is vulnerable, they may have had Covid and are suffering from long Covid or they may have witnessed a loved one die from Covid. There may be a few people who have an irrational paranoia of catching an infection but many more who are being careful for sound personal or medical reasons. You should not be presumptuous in your thinking.

Quite so. I'm wanting a like button right now.

 

[Cowley]

Pull back from the Covid precipice please folks. Everyone has their reasons and I think we can leave it there thanks.

 

[D6130]

Unfortunately the Mid-Norfolk Railway seems to be in trouble:

New Business Model announced by Mid Norfolk Railway to assist with 'financial difficulties'

A new business model has been announced by the Mid Norfolk Railway to help address its financial difficulties.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I know Norfolk is a sizeable County but is there the business to support two largish lines?

 

[trebor79]

I know Norfolk is a sizeable County but is there the business to support two largish lines?

The NNR is in a tourist hot spot. The MNR very much less so.
I'm not sure what's gone wrong all of a sudden at the MNR, they seemed to be doing well and must have done well out of the rolling stock storage contract with Great Anglia, but I don't think they managed to run the full line last year (due to unspecified "track repairs") and now this.
A shame really as it's a lovely line and East Dereham station has been well restored. I hope they manage to survive.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst the Railway is talking of "difficulties" I think that they are manageable with suitable changes. They seemed to be in profit last year.

 

[Falcon1200]

Unfortunately the Mid-Norfolk Railway seems to be in trouble:

New Business Model announced by Mid Norfolk Railway to assist with 'financial difficulties'

A new business model has been announced by the Mid Norfolk Railway to help address its financial difficulties.

www.railadvent.co.uk

I presume this excerpt from paragraph two of the linked report;

the current revenue levels does now allow for the railway to keep up with the deterioration of the railway infrastructure.

Should read does not allow etc

A somewhat misleading misprint, albeit corrected by the rest of the statement.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Graham Watts a new Trust Council member, who after a career culminating in being a senior manager in local authority leisure services, has now taken on the railway’s commercial portfolio. He said: “From a commercial perspective the railway has a significant portfolio of activities already, but what we must do is be ruthless in driving our costs down to increase the profit element of the revenue we already generate and introduce new services that grow the business.

Doesn't sound too promising. Heritage railways need to bear in mind all their revenue from visitors is discretionary spending. React to a downturn in revenue by cutting costs too much and you provide a worse visitor experience which results in revenue decreasing more due to even fewer visitors - a downward spiral.

 

[D Williams]

Seventeen and a half miles of route. Five stations, level crossings, bridges, loops , sidings etc. How many passengers does the Mid Norfolk carry in a normal year? I don't know the area at all. Does it go anywhere that attracts the numbers of visitors required to fill the trains?

 

[trebor79]

MNR runs from Dereham to Wymondham Abbey. Wymondham is a fairly interesting place to visit.
They also run binorth from Dereham towards County School but I I don't think you can actually get off the train on that stretch.

Not sure on how many passengers it carries. Personally I think they'd do better if they ran more steam services. And I'm sure more could me made of the mainline connection given the Breckland line isn't exactly busy. Dining trains to/from Norwich, for example.

 

[Meerkat]

MNR runs from Dereham to Wymondham Abbey. Wymondham is a fairly interesting place to visit.
They also run binorth from Dereham towards County School but I I don't think you can actually get off the train on that stretch.

Not sure on how many passengers it carries. Personally I think they'd do better if they ran more steam services. And I'm sure more could me made of the mainline connection given the Breckland line isn't exactly busy. Dining trains to/from Norwich, for example.

From a look at a map north of Dereham looks too far, with too many level crossings etc to run.
Is Wymondham to Dereham far enough - what is the sweetspot for getting the revenue in?

 

[trebor79]

From a look at a map north of Dereham looks too far, with too many level crossings etc to run.
Is Wymondham to Dereham far enough - what is the sweetspot for getting the revenue in?

I believe the long term aim is/was to get to somewhere near Fakenham.
Wymondham to Dereham would still be a fairly lengthy preserved line. 10 miles or thereabouts.

 

[D6968]

MNR runs from Dereham to Wymondham Abbey. Wymondham is a fairly interesting place to visit.
They also run binorth from Dereham towards County School but I I don't think you can actually get off the train on that stretch.

Not sure on how many passengers it carries. Personally I think they'd do better if they ran more steam services. And I'm sure more could me made of the mainline connection given the Breckland line isn't exactly busy. Dining trains to/from Norwich, for example.

The mainline connection has been pretty well used though (6233 has had a couple of holidays back in the county it used to based for example)
I really don’t think dining trains between Wymondham and Narch would be the money spinner you seem to think it would be.
TBF the MNR has come a long way in a short space of time, but don’t forget as recently as 1989 it was still only a freight only branch.

 

[D Williams]

TBF the MNR has come a long way in a short space of time, but don’t forget as recently as 1989 it was still only a freight only branch.

That is over thirty years ago.

 

[rustbucket]

I believe the long term aim is/was to get to somewhere near Fakenham.
Wymondham to Dereham would still be a fairly lengthy preserved line. 10 miles or thereabouts.

A shade over 11 miles Wymondham to Dereham. No real ambition to get north of County School at 17 miles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2023 ==

Does it go anywhere that attracts the numbers of visitors required to fill the trains?

Attracts a decent number - it's biggest challenge is being commercially naïve, it's not great at generating the fringe income outside running trains and is heavily reliant on paid staff

The mainline connection has been pretty well used though (6233 has had a couple of holidays back in the county it used to based for example)

Also provides servicing facilities for DRS for the RHTTs every winter

 

[Trainfan344]

A friend tried volunteering on MNR.

Zoom meeting for an introduction

Zoom meeting for a PTS Theory

Finally travel to the MNR to do the Practical PTS, failed with no info on what he failed, have to resit the theory over zoom.

Zoom meeting link doesn't work

He's on his third attempt now.

How many more volunteers have been put off by this?

MNR tried selling off the Blue and Grey set last year which went down like a lead ballon.

Can't run dining trains anywhere if they can't fix the bridge at Wymondham

A half line trip doesn't have any interest, and they've also discovered that the platform at Wymondham Abbey should have been demolished years ago.

Heritage railway wants to keep platform it should have removed decades ago

A heritage railway is looking to keep a station platform after discovering it should have been removed decades ago.

www.edp24.co.uk

 

[Meerkat]

A half line trip doesn't have any interest,

Doesn't have any interest to whom? Isn't a 22 mile round trip about the limit a family would want to do?

 

[Trainfan344]

The distance is currently 12 miles round trip and Thurston doesn't have the same attractiveness as Wymondham for tourists and neither does it have the ease of access from the mainline

 

[47434]

MNR runs from Dereham to Wymondham Abbey. Wymondham is a fairly interesting place to visit.
They also run binorth from Dereham towards County School but I I don't think you can actually get off the train on that stretch.

Not sure on how many passengers it carries. Personally I think they'd do better if they ran more steam services. And I'm sure more could me made of the mainline connection given the Breckland line isn't exactly busy. Dining trains to/from Norwich, for example.

Steam would undoubtedly bring in more revenue but costs are through the roof so it is a fine balance.

 

[Alanko]

A friend tried volunteering on MNR.

Zoom meeting for an introduction

Zoom meeting for a PTS Theory

Finally travel to the MNR to do the Practical PTS, failed with no info on what he failed, have to resit the theory over zoom.

Zoom meeting link doesn't work

He's on his third attempt now.

I would have said '**** that' after the failed second attempt. They are getting your resource for free, so a simple "you didn't pass because X, but come in and we will get you started on Y and we will show you X" would be better.

 

[railfan99]

Steam would undoubtedly bring in more revenue but costs are through the roof so it is a fine balance.

I am acutely aware that as an overseas visitor, I am in a tiny (or small) minority of prospective passengers.

Whether a heritage line has a main line connection (and connects reasonably well with National Rail franchised rail operators' passenger trains) is a fairly major determinant as to whether I will visit on a forthcoming September 2023 holiday before I visit Europe again.

Steam is also important, although I will 'do' a line if it's diesel.

It was why I did North Norfolk Railway last year in preference to Mid Norfolk Railway, and managed to fit in Ecclesbourne Valley Railway, the least well patronised of any I rode. Similarly, it's why I'm probably set to travel on South Devon Railway in 2023 and even the sometimes criticised Bodmin and Wenford Railway, as well as remote Strathspey Railway and one I missed out on last year due to a rail strike, Keighley and Worth Valley. I may manage the one out of Bishops Auckland, and am considering MNR but if it isn't operating full length, then it's likely not to receive my patronage.

If they don't have a main/branch line connection, then a tramway is acceptable, so last year it was easy to do East Lancashire Railway at Bury, and what an enjoyable experience that was.

I make an exception for obviously excellent railways such as West Somerset Railway that involved a bus from Taunton, thankfully conveniently serving Bishops Lydeard Railway station. Kent and East Sussex is a bit harder but I may do that, plus Spa Valley Railway and 'the original heritage line', Bluebell, the latter two being easy to reach via Network Rail, although Spa Valley is a short walk from the main line.

Why isn't the Mid Norfolk Railway targeting pensioner and senior citizen groups who can arrive by train, and have a very pleasant day out?

 

[trebor79]

Why isn't the Mid Norfolk Railway targeting pensioner and senior citizen groups who can arrive by train, and have a very pleasant day out?

The don't run into the mainline Wymondham station, but have their own terminus halt Wymondham Abbey. It's a fair walk between the stations.

 

[D6130]

The don't run into the mainline Wymondham station, but have their own terminus halt Wymondham Abbey. It's a fair walk between the stations.

....and it's platform has over-run its temporary planning permission, as mentioned above.

 

[Train Maniac]

I am acutely aware that as an overseas visitor, I am in a tiny (or small) minority of prospective passengers.

Whether a heritage line has a main line connection (and connects reasonably well with National Rail franchised rail operators' passenger trains) is a fairly major determinant as to whether I will visit on a forthcoming September 2023 holiday before I visit Europe again.

Steam is also important, although I will 'do' a line if it's diesel.

It was why I did North Norfolk Railway last year in preference to Mid Norfolk Railway, and managed to fit in Ecclesbourne Valley Railway, the least well patronised of any I rode. Similarly, it's why I'm probably set to travel on South Devon Railway in 2023 and even the sometimes criticised Bodmin and Wenford Railway, as well as remote Strathspey Railway and one I missed out on last year due to a rail strike, Keighley and Worth Valley. I may manage the one out of Bishops Auckland, and am considering MNR but if it isn't operating full length, then it's likely not to receive my patronage.

If they don't have a main/branch line connection, then a tramway is acceptable, so last year it was easy to do East Lancashire Railway at Bury, and what an enjoyable experience that was.

I make an exception for obviously excellent railways such as West Somerset Railway that involved a bus from Taunton, thankfully conveniently serving Bishops Lydeard Railway station. Kent and East Sussex is a bit harder but I may do that, plus Spa Valley Railway and 'the original heritage line', Bluebell, the latter two being easy to reach via Network Rail, although Spa Valley is a short walk from the main line.

Why isn't the Mid Norfolk Railway targeting pensioner and senior citizen groups who can arrive by train, and have a very pleasant day out?

Obviously i would rather a heritage railway didnt go bust trying to achieve a main line connection for the sake of it, but there is certainly more chance of there being "something" outside of a main line station, rather than just an empty field, as on some smaller not-quite-there-yet heritage railways. Besides, having a main line connection (even if not physical) also increases the likelihood that it will be seen by more potential passengers from the passing train on the way to work or whatever.

Regarding the Spa Valley Railway, i assume you are intending on going via Tunbridge Wells? Although the walk through the town centre is pleasant and not too far to walk, there is an even easier interchange at the other end of the line at Eridge. Simply alight from the train to Uckfield, walk over the footbridge and you are on the SVR platforms opposite the main line.

 

[trebor79]

....and it's platform has over-run its temporary planning permission, as mentioned above.

I don't know why that's such a big deal. It's been there so long it must be into deemed consent now anyway.

 

[rustbucket]

MNR tried selling off the Blue and Grey set last year which went down like a lead ballon.

Reportedly only received 1 serious offer - and that was only for one carriage

Over 50 carriages on their books at present

 

[Alanko]

Reportedly only received 1 serious offer - and that was only for one carriage

Over 50 carriages on their books at present

At what point do railways acknowledge that having a vast inventory of stock with ever-increasing repair bills is not a sensible approach? I've followed a few carriage restorations on Facebook and the work to get one slightly rough Mk1 back to fighting fitness is quite considerable. Unless all 50 carriages can be deployed into traffic today then i don't see the point in stockpiling them.

The "serious offer" bit seems questionable. Price your goods accordingly and the market will respond. If it is a ropey Mk1 that needs put on a trailer and subsequently five figures sunk into it then entertain a low offer? If no railway wants it, and somebody like WCR or SRPS aren't interested in harvesting parts for mainline stock, then entertain an offer from the scrap man.

I've made a similar, and badly received, criticism of the Caledonian Railway. I was there last year in the height of summer and rode in one of two lightly populated Mk1s behind a Type 2. Get to Bridge of Dun and there are enough carriages kicking around to assemble multiple lengthy rakes. The total bill to restore everything must run into the £millions. Are heritage railways run by magpies?

 

[D Williams]

"Are heritage railways run by magpies?" If you haven't worked this one out by now then you haven't been to many heritage railways! More seriously, a reckoning is long coming and will now be spurred on by a number of issues all arriving at the same time; increasing costs, fading away of the now-elderly volunteer workforce from the start-up days, environmental pressures, increased regulation and enforcement, a general decrease in passengers carried, the pressure for heritage railways to move away from the "Titfield Thunderbolt" approach to a far more polished and professional offering that requires full time staff and there are other more subtle factors. Already a number of steam locos are unlikely to be used again as repair costs outweigh any income that can be derived from their use. Starting a large diesel engine on a cold morning will bring the "Gretas" to the gates and, did I mention the one overriding problem for a steam railway....coal, or the lack of it. So, pragmatism should result in a lot of stock getting onto the market or, more likely, a trip to the scrapyard. But doubtless the magpies will fight this all of the way.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A friend tried volunteering on MNR.

Zoom meeting for an introduction

Zoom meeting for a PTS Theory

Finally travel to the MNR to do the Practical PTS, failed with no info on what he failed, have to resit the theory over zoom.

Zoom meeting link doesn't work

He's on his third attempt now.

How many more volunteers have been put off by this?

MNR tried selling off the Blue and Grey set last year which went down like a lead ballon.

Can't run dining trains anywhere if they can't fix the bridge at Wymondham

A half line trip doesn't have any interest, and they've also discovered that the platform at Wymondham Abbey should have been demolished years ago.

Heritage railway wants to keep platform it should have removed decades ago

A heritage railway is looking to keep a station platform after discovering it should have been removed decades ago.

www.edp24.co.uk

Interesting, the heritage railway I volunteer at doesn't make PTS mandatory to begin with, we let people get some experience supervised before going through the exam. Tend to find that works better.

 

[Titfield]

Interesting, the heritage railway I volunteer at doesn't make PTS mandatory to begin with, we let people get some experience supervised before going through the exam. Tend to find that works better.

Yes interesting. Perhaps a different view of risk and that by training for and passing PTS before going on the railway is "safer". Yes I appreciate that some volunteers do not go trackside (and thus wouldnt need PTS) but equally I wonder how many just find themselves trackside from time to time and thus are at greater risk and of course should have PTS.