If Southern canx can you use GX?

[jesslordy]

Hi everyone

If my stopping SN service is cancelled to Gatwick Airport, am I allowed to use the GX or will I have to pay extra?

Am I going to have a flight on my hands or is this something that is ok within the rules? From what I can read they have to 'reasonably' get me to my destination but I think my definition of 'reasonable' may slightly differ to theirs

Thank you

 

[RJ]

The best thing to do is seek assistance from staff on the day. The rules are relaxed in times of disruption.

 

[najaB]

Hi everyone

If my stopping SN service is cancelled to Gatwick Airport, am I allowed to use the GX or will I have to pay extra?

That depends on your ticket. If it has no restriction marked on it - for example in the route field it says 'Any permitted' then yes, you are perfectly free to use a GX service.

If, however, it has a restriction to the effect that it is valid on Southern trains only the answer is... yes, you are free to use a GX service since they are a brand of Southern and not a separate TOC. Though you'll find that they try to convince people that they are.

Am I going to have a flight on my hands...

I hope so, why else go to an airport?

 

[Joe Paxton]

That depends on your ticket. If it has no restriction marked on it - for example in the route field it says 'Any permitted' then yes, you are perfectly free to use a GX service.

If, however, [the ticket] has a restriction to the effect that it is valid on Southern trains only the answer is... yes, you are free to use a GX service since they are a brand of Southern and not a separate TOC. Though you'll find that they try to convince people that they are.

This is poor advice given what is likely to happen on the ground (...at the station gateline/ on the train).

Some people just want to catch a train, rather than making their journey into a fight to uphold rights they probably didn't know existed which reside in a document they've never heard of!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, however, it has a restriction to the effect that it is valid on Southern trains only the answer is... yes, you are free to use a GX service since they are a brand of Southern and not a separate TOC. Though you'll find that they try to convince people that they are.

Unless you want a genuine fight on your hands do not do this.

Test cases are all well and good, but you do not want that stress on the way to a flight. Ensure you have time to reach the airport using a Southern branded service only, if you are using a Southern only ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with RJ and Joe Paxton. Seek assistance from staff on the ground at the time of disruption.

The 'one company' argument is not to be advised unless you are very confident that you know the rules inside out, that you are in the right and you are prepared to be delayed and go through loads of hassle.

There are plenty of other threads discussing the relationship between the TSA, NRCoT and ticket validity of brand-specific tickets where one franchise holder (GTR) has multiple brands, without a consensus being reached. I see little point in repeating that discussion.

 

[najaB]

This is poor advice given what is likely to happen on the ground (...at the station gateline/ on the train).

Unless you want a genuine fight on your hands do not do this.

In case it wasn't clear, "Though you'll find that they try to convince people that they are." was indicating that the staff will likely try to tell jesslordy that GX and SN are different TOCs.

 

[swt class 450]

GTR is all one company which is owned by Govia and has four brand names (Gatwick Express / Great Northern / Southern / Thameslink). So officially tickets marked as "not gatwick express" or "southern only" or "thameslink only" can all be used on all brands of GTR. However unfortunately GTR have sone very useless incompetent staff including the notorious Red Gestapo at Platforms 13 and 14 at London Victoria who will try to tell you that they are four separate companies and your ticket is not valid and generally they try to give passengers as much trouble as possible.

 

[mono1989]

GTR is all one company which is owned by Govia and has four brand names (Gatwick Express / Great Northern / Southern / Thameslink). So officially tickets marked as "not gatwick express" or "southern only" or "thameslink only" can all be used on all brands of GTR. However unfortunately GTR have sone very useless incompetent staff including the notorious Red Gestapo at Platforms 13 and 14 at London Victoria who will try to tell you that they are four separate companies and your ticket is not valid and generally they try to give passengers as much trouble as possible.

However, as per the NCoT TOC's can restrict tickets to different brands of the same company. If the passenger holds a ticket marked SOUTHERN ONLY with a reservation coupon they should seek the next southern service that is available if their train is cancelled.

If they hold a ticket marked NOT GATWICK EXPRESS they can board a GX as the restriction is only valid between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

 

[RJ]

I've translated the contents of this thread to something that probably makes more sense to the average traveller.

沒有人真正關心的無聊，重複的爭論。

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the average traveller would understand that you can't use a ticket with NOT GATWICK EXPRESS on it on the Gatwick Express, and that one that says SOUTHERN ONLY can only be used on a Southern train.

It's the technicalities and issues surrounding this that are complex.

 

[Joe Paxton]

i've translated the contents of this thread to something that probably makes more sense to the average traveller.

沒有人真正關心的無聊，重複的爭論。

.....

 

[yorkie]

GTR is all one company which is owned by Govia and has four brand names (Gatwick Express / Great Northern / Southern / Thameslink). So officially tickets marked as "not gatwick express" or "southern only" or "thameslink only" can all be used on all brands of GTR. However unfortunately GTR have sone very useless incompetent staff including the notorious Red Gestapo at Platforms 13 and 14 at London Victoria who will try to tell you that they are four separate companies and your ticket is not valid and generally they try to give passengers as much trouble as possible.

Agreed. See: Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement".

Anyone who is charged an excess fare should seek a refund.

 

[gray1404]

However, as per the NCoT TOC's can restrict tickets to different brands of the same companyl.

Really? You sure?

 

[yorkie]

However, as per the NCoT TOC's can restrict tickets to different brands of the same company. If the passenger holds a ticket marked SOUTHERN ONLY with a reservation coupon they should seek the next southern service that is available if their train is cancelled.

If they hold a ticket marked NOT GATWICK EXPRESS they can board a GX as the restriction is only valid between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

there is no condition in the NRCoT which allow restrictions to brands.

And, crucially, tickets are only permitted to be issued in accordance with the TSA:

http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/fi...ces/rsp/TSA_V10.1_Main_Agreement_Volume_1.pdf

page 27:

“Dedicated Fare” means a Fare which entitles the Purchaser to use the trains of a single Operator only.

“Dedicated Ticket” means a Ticket which evidences a Dedicated Fare.

page 69

An Operator may not offer any Fare for Sale, or authorise another person to do so, unless that Fare has been Created in accordance with this Chapter (and has not been discontinued or replaced).

Subject to sub-Clauses (3) and (4) below, an Operator may (by itself or in conjunction with any other Operator(s)) only Create a Fare if it is allowed to do so pursuant to Clause 4-15, 4-16 or 4-33 below or required to do so pursuant to Clause 4-20 below.

page 83

Subject to Clause 4-25 below (where this applies), each Operator may Create Dedicated Fares in respect of journeys on its own trains.

Clauses 4-18 to 4-30 below entitle Lead Operators to Create Permanent Fares and Temporary Fares on Compulsory Inter-available Flows in certain circumstances and restrict the circumstances in which certain Operators may Create Fares pursuant to Clauses 4-15 and 4-16 above.

page 134

An Operator may not offer any Fare for Sale, or authorise another person to do so, unless that Fare has been Created pursuant to Chapter 4 (and has not been discontinued or replaced). This restriction applies to all Fares, including Dedicated Fares which are Sold by the Operator on whose trains they are valid.

List of operators here:
http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/fi...ices/rsp/TSA_V10.1_The_Schedules_Volume_2.pdf
page 6

THE OPERATORS

...

Govia Thameslink Railway Limited 07934306 3rd Floor 41-51 Grey Street , Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 6EE

However the complication is that the fares were, in generally, originally created under the original franchises.

DfT actually decides what happens as GTR are only on a management contract.

However when a TOC ceases to exist, the fare should be considered valid throughout the new TOC.

 

[Starmill]

However, as per the NCoT TOC's can restrict tickets to different brands of the same company. If the passenger holds a ticket marked SOUTHERN ONLY with a reservation coupon they should seek the next southern service that is available if their train is cancelled.

If they hold a ticket marked NOT GATWICK EXPRESS they can board a GX as the restriction is only valid between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

Thanks for wading in with a load of stuff that it appears you've just made up, after this argument has been done to death a million times, and that's been pointed out to you.

 

[jesslordy]

I've translated the contents of this thread to something that probably makes more sense to the average traveller.

沒有人真正關心的無聊，重複的爭論。

Hooray, I totally get it now!

Trains in the UK in general could be described the same way.

 

[Merseysider]

However, as per the NCoT [sic] TOC's [sic] can restrict tickets to different brands of the same company. If the passenger holds a ticket marked SOUTHERN ONLY with a reservation coupon they should seek the next southern [sic] service that is available if their train is cancelled.

If they hold a ticket marked NOT GATWICK EXPRESS they can board a GX as the restriction is only valid between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

Statements like these should really be accompanied by evidence, for several reasons.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well that was an interesting read from Yorkie, but I'm still yet to see anything in the TSA that would outright prevent GTR from having "brand restricted" fares, infact it looks like there is a clause to allow such tickets to exist by application to "the Authority".

 

[infobleep]

Well that was an interesting read from Yorkie, but I'm still yet to see anything in the TSA that would outright prevent GTR from having "brand restricted" fares, infact it looks like there is a clause to allow such tickets to exist by application to "the Authority".

Have they applied to the relevant authority for these to exist?

I'd love to know why they want to refund people. Surely taking someone to court might make others think twice about doing it?

 

[MikeWh]

I'd love to know why they want to refund people. Surely taking someone to court might make others think twice about doing it?

Without going over the whole topic again, both they (GTR) and the DfT know that there is a good chance that a court would rule in favour of the customer if the case ever got that far. Most customers haven't got a clue and abide by the rules. There must be a reason why the lawyers overseeing the merger between Gatwick Express and Southern didn't decide to change the wording to make the intention allowed, but they didn't.

 

[infobleep]

Without going over the whole topic again, both they (GTR) and the DfT know that there is a good chance that a court would rule in favour of the customer if the case ever got that far. Most customers haven't got a clue and abide by the rules. There must be a reason why the lawyers overseeing the merger between Gatwick Express and Southern didn't decide to change the wording to make the intention allowed, but they didn't.

I can see that but hairyhandedfool's comments suggest different to that. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion and lawyers don't always agree either.

Given nothing has gone to court that gives me a clear indication.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But going back to the OP, when you're in a rush going for a flight is *not* the time to become a test case!

 

[yorkie]

Unless

Given nothing has gone to court that gives me a clear indication.

Absolutely; the company would not have refunded people and would have let the matter go to court if they were absolutely certain they were able to make these charges.

Incidentally has anyone been charged th £19.90 Oyster/Contactless PAYG fare and been refunded on here? I know someone who is interested in publishing a news report about this...

 

[yorkie]

But going back to the OP, when you're in a rush going for a flight is *not* the time to become a test case!

True but in my experience showing them relevant documentation means they give up trying to charge the 'supplement' after a couple of minutes, and if they do charge you, you can pay up and obtain a refund later (as several forum members have done)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Have they applied to the relevant authority for these to exist?...

You'd have to ask them that.

....I'd love to know why they want to refund people. Surely taking someone to court might make others think twice about doing it?

Do they want to refund people? I doubt it. Have you considered who is actually giving out the refunds? Which department? Perhaps that is a clue as to what is happening? No one has yet been able to provide figures of how many have been asked to pay extra and what percentage have received a refund, nor has anyone been able to identify, categorically, who the financial winners and losers are so far.

Perhaps there is a cost to seeing it through to court? If so, that cost might be more than refunding a few unhappy passengers.

 

[infobleep]

You'd have to ask them that.



Do they want to refund people? I doubt it. Have you considered who is actually giving out the refunds? Which department? Perhaps that is a clue as to what is happening? No one has yet been able to provide figures of how many have been asked to pay extra and what percentage have received a refund, nor has anyone been able to identify, categorically, who the financial winners and losers are so far.

Perhaps there is a cost to seeing it through to court? If so, that cost might be more than refunding a few unhappy passengers.

I'm sure there are examples where people have been taken to court or had to pay penalty fares and it hasn't been refunded. Why should this particular journey be any different.

As for stats on whose been PFed, I imagine that information wouldn't be given out. I didn't think Govia Thameslink Railway were subject to FOIs so I imagine they would refuse.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps there is a cost to seeing it through to court? If so, that cost might be more than refunding a few unhappy passengers.

Either way, I am glad you are in agreement with me that, in the unlikely event that customers on SN/TL only fares are charged a supplement, the company does tend to refund people

 

[Joe Paxton]

But going back to the OP, when you're in a rush going for a flight is *not* the time to become a test case!

True but in my experience showing them relevant documentation means they give up trying to charge the 'supplement' after a couple of minutes, and if they do charge you, you can pay up and obtain a refund later (as several forum members have done)

Or, just take the Southern train! It's almost as fast, and it comes without an argument. And GatEx isn't anything special.

I appreciate you and others are trying to hold GTR's feet to the fire on this one, and I also appreciate the argument that it could be the thin end of the wedge with other TOCs potentially trying something similar. (Though I note hairyhandedfool's comments on an alternative interpretation of the TSA.)

However, providing advice to all and sundry that the restrictions are meaningless isn't I think particularly wise, given the consequences for real people making real journeys who are not au fait with this whole argument and who aren't necessarily going to be thankful for said advice!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sure there are examples where people have been taken to court or had to pay penalty fares and it hasn't been refunded. Why should this particular journey be any different....

You'd have to ask the staff at Southern that. I'm sure they have their reasons though. Perhaps a different team of people have dealt with them?

....As for stats on whose been PFed, I imagine that information wouldn't be given out. I didn't think Govia Thameslink Railway were subject to FOIs so I imagine they would refuse.

In which case we have no basis to say that the TOC is right or wrong based on who has, or has not, had a refund.

Either way, I am glad you are in agreement with me that, in the unlikely event that customers on SN/TL only fares are charged a supplement, the company does tend to refund people

I can only comment on what I have heard in that regard. I have no information to suggest what percentage of people have had a refund.