If the Great Central had Survived Beeching.... Would it be Useful Today?

[deltic08]

The site of MK had been chosen before the line was closed.

But was MK chosen with the knowledge that the GC was going to close?

 

[PeterC]

But was MK chosen with the knowledge that the GC was going to close?

Was MK originally intended to be rail connected.? I assumed that, like the previous generation of new towns, commuting out of the town wasn't catered originally catered for.

 

[aylesbury]

Opening above Calvert is not worth doing as the traffic on offer is not worth the expense, the new Marylebone MK service will be a very popular one that is going to offer a wide range of routes.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Opening above Calvert is not worth doing as the traffic on offer is not worth the expense, the new Marylebone MK service will be a very popular one that is going to offer a wide range of routes.

When and if it actually happens.
JonD

 

[DarloRich]

But was MK chosen with the knowledge that the GC was going to close?

Was MK originally intended to be rail connected.? I assumed that, like the previous generation of new towns, commuting out of the town wasn't catered originally catered for.

My understanding was that the site was fixed upon in the late 50's and developed as an idea in the early 60's before construction started in 1967. The site was chosen as it was
equidistant from London, Birmingham, Leicester, Oxford and Cambridge and most importantly adjacent to the new fangled M1. It also next to another important trunk road (A5) with an existing cross route in the A421 running through the site. The fact it was close to the WCML was an undeveloped bonus as Milton Keynes Central railway station did not open until May 1982. Blethcley served as the main station for the town.

I suggest the idea that the demise of the GC played a part in sitting a new town is a red herring. The M40 didn't exist at that point and the existing road network is not as well developed as the MK area. I suggest the road communication network was the bigger driver in choosing the site of MK. I don't think it would have been as easy to build a new town somewhere between Brackley & Daventry, even with an operating GC, due to the poorer road network.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if the GC had stayed open and the new town been built on it, it would have had worse rail connectivity than MK as actually built on the WCML. Even before the opening of the MK station the train service at Bletchley was better than anything that might have still been running on the GC.

The failure of planning rail-wise at MK was to locate the centre north of Bletchley so it not only needed a new station but also didn't have any east-west rail links. Possibly centring it on Calvert might have addressed that particular defect, assuming the Oxford-Cambridge line had stayed open - which by then everyone probably expected correctly that it wouldn't.

Also a new town site on the GC might have been too close to Cublington, which was being proposed at about the same time to become London's main airport. This was closer to the WCML than the GC and a branch from near Leighton Buzzard was suggested.

 

[DarloRich]

Even if the GC had stayed open and the new town been built on it, it would have had worse rail connectivity than MK as actually built on the WCML. Even before the opening of the MK station the train service at Bletchley was better than anything that might have still been running on the GC.

The failure of planning rail-wise at MK was to locate the centre north of Bletchley so it not only needed a new station but also didn't have any east-west rail links. Possibly centring it on Calvert might have addressed that particular defect, assuming the Oxford-Cambridge line had stayed open - which by then everyone probably expected correctly that it wouldn't.

Also a new town site on the GC might have been too close to Cublington, which was being proposed at about the same time to become London's main airport. This was closer to the WCML than the GC and a branch from near Leighton Buzzard was suggested.

While I agree on the E-W connectivity point about MKC the problem with that is that there was a desire to incorporate and absorb the existing communities into the fabric of the new town rather than demolish them. In any event the open land was between Blethcley and Wolverton (look out the old Bletchley Park maps) thta offered scope for development.

I still feel the road network was the main attraction for the MK development rather than rail links. After all by the 1960's rail was so passe

 

[70014IronDuke]

While I agree on the E-W connectivity point about MKC the problem with that is that there was a desire to incorporate and absorb the existing communities into the fabric of the new town rather than demolish them. In any event the open land was between Blethcley and Wolverton (look out the old Bletchley Park maps) thta offered scope for development.

I still feel the road network was the main attraction for the MK development rather than rail links. After all by the 1960's rail was so passe

Road networks or not, it is clear that planners had zero interest when planning MK when it came to rail. The decision to close Oxford-Bletchley, and Bletchley-Cambridge came after the decision to develop MK - even as a teenager I was flabbergasted at that.

And AFAIK, the whole idea regarding MK was NOT to incorporate a station as a deterrence against MK becoming a commuter town/city. At least, that is what I've read. This changed, or began to change, around 1974 - I know that because the timings unit at the LMR CMEE Derby were asked to prepare timings for the WCML for the proposed new station in that year.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Even if the GC had stayed open and the new town been built on it, it would have had worse rail connectivity than MK as actually built on the WCML. Even before the opening of the MK station the train service at Bletchley was better than anything that might have still been running on the GC.

AS I mentioned up thread, the GC service after 1960 was a sick, sad joke. (Though I'm not sure if there was an enhanced local service twixt Nottingham and Rugby, I presume there was.)

Of course, had they built the new town around Brackley, then that could have become the northern end of a truncated GC in stead of Aylesbury, and had a much better service to Marylebone. But even if they had actually kept the route entirely, it would have had less connectivity than today's MK because, of course, the GC connected with so few other lines along its length.

Indeed, it is a shame that the GC did not encourage the use of Brackley as an outer commuter station - but I guess that it seemed an awful long way from London in the 30s, 40s and 50s. (not sure how far away it is from London, 55 miles or so?)

The failure of planning rail-wise at MK was to locate the centre north of Bletchley so it not only needed a new station but also didn't have any east-west rail links. Possibly centring it on Calvert might have addressed that particular defect, assuming the Oxford-Cambridge line had stayed open - which by then everyone probably expected correctly that it wouldn't.

As stated above, AIRI, the final decision to close what is today called The Varsity Line was made after the go ahead for MK. I think the fact is that planners just ignored rail - the car was so triumphant for personal travel for the modern man at the time.

Also a new town site on the GC might have been too close to Cublington, which was being proposed at about the same time to become London's main airport. This was closer to the WCML than the GC and a branch from near Leighton Buzzard was suggested.

Was Cublngton closer to the WCML? I thought it looked idea for a deviation off the GC. OR am I thinking of another possible site for the airport? BTW, I remember as just "a third" London airport - not the main airport. BICBW

 

[The Planner]

When was the main road from the station up to the centre envisaged and built? I was always told it had a wide central reservation for some sort of light rail/tram that never happened, no idea if true or not.

 

[DarloRich]

As stated above, AIRI, the final decision to close what is today called The Varsity Line was made after the go ahead for MK. I think the fact is that planners just ignored rail - the car was so triumphant for personal travel for the modern man at the time.

This was the white heat of the 1960's - none of the young movers and shakers coming to MK would ever travel by such tired, dirty, slow old rubbish as a train. it was all going to be jet packs and rocket cars. How times change............

When was the main road from the station up to the centre envisaged and built? I was always told it had a wide central reservation for some sort of light rail/tram that never happened, no idea if true or not.

I was told the same - my view is that MK would be ideal for this kind of thing - but it may be an urban legend

 

[Andyjs247]

I think the key point with Milton Keynes is that the location was chosen to be halfway between London and Birmingham/Leicester and between Oxford and Cambridge. That there happened to be a railway at all was secondary. It would also rule out Brackley - too close to Oxford.

Actually I think even the nearby M1 motorway was a secondary consideration. Road links beyond Milton Keynes have improved in recent years but for years Junction 13 of the M1 was one of those not fit for purpose. Only recently has the A421 link between the M1, Bedford and A1 been upgraded to dual carriageway. Between J13 and Milton Keynes the A421 is still only a single carriageway. J14 is better but is still a bit out of the way if heading south to London.

 

[edwin_m]

As stated above, AIRI, the final decision to close what is today called The Varsity Line was made after the go ahead for MK. I think the fact is that planners just ignored rail - the car was so triumphant for personal travel for the modern man at the time.

I think you're right - if they thought about rail at all then it wasn't for very long.

Was Cublngton closer to the WCML? I thought it looked idea for a deviation off the GC. OR am I thinking of another possible site for the airport? BTW, I remember as just "a third" London airport - not the main airport. BICBW

I checked on the map, the former RAF station between Cublington and Wing is nearly twice as far from the nearest point on the GC (just north of Aylesbury) as from the nearest point on the WCML (just south of Leighton Buzzard). Although the distance into London might have been slightly shorter via the GC, this would have been on double track north of Moor Park shared with the Metropolitan, so very difficult to run a fast airport service unlike the four-track WCML which would have had no capacity problems at the time.

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^What about from Paddington via the NNWL?

 

[yorksrob]

I often wonder whether a parkway station serving Daventry could have worked on the route. Certainly it would have facilitated transport to the East Midlands, as well as providing an alternative route South.

 

[edwin_m]

^^^What about from Paddington via the NNWL?

The connection from the GC to the NNML was north of where any Cublington GC connection might have been, so it would have involved backtracking via new curves or extending the new link across the GC to meet the NNWL west of Aylesbury. Or a total rebuild of the Aylesbury to Risborough branch.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think you're right - if they thought about rail at all then it wasn't for very long.

I checked on the map, the former RAF station between Cublington and Wing is nearly twice as far from the nearest point on the GC (just north of Aylesbury) as from the nearest point on the WCML (just south of Leighton Buzzard). Although the distance into London might have been slightly shorter via the GC, this would have been on double track north of Moor Park shared with the Metropolitan, so very difficult to run a fast airport service unlike the four-track WCML which would have had no capacity problems at the time.

Google is our friend. Here's a proposed picture of where it would have been sited
https://goo.gl/images/3qy64t

And here was how it was proposed to be rail-connected. A possible branch from Aylesbury amongst other possibilities
http://www.leightonlogs.org/CubAirbranch.htm

 

[edwin_m]

Google is our friend. Here's a proposed picture of where it would have been sited
https://goo.gl/images/3qy64t

And here was how it was proposed to be rail-connected. A possible branch from Aylesbury amongst other possibilities
http://www.leightonlogs.org/CubAirbranch.htm

That's interesting. Contrary to what I suggested previously, MK would have been closer to the flight paths than a hypothetical alternative new town near Calvert!

 

[A0]

I often wonder whether a parkway station serving Daventry could have worked on the route. Certainly it would have facilitated transport to the East Midlands, as well as providing an alternative route South.

It would still have been some way out of town - not much less than Long Buckby is - and Buckby has the advantage of serving Coventry and Birmingham - which tend to be the destinations for people from Daventry, not Leicester and Nottingham.

The GC's section north of Aylesbury had a much diminished service after 1960 as part of a BR LM led run-down.

There might have been a case for curtailing the GC at Rugby or Leicester - but the challenge would have been 'but there's already a London - Rugby / London - Leicester route'. The thinking at the time, rightly or wrongly, was only one major link was to be promoted between key destinations - so for Birmingham and the West Mids that was the WCML - hence the GW route was diminished and the GC (touching the West Mids at Rugby) was also diminished. Similarly for Leicester it was an MML vs GC decision.