If the Waterloo and City line closed, what could be done with the tunnels?

[Egg Centric]

This thread claims that TFL may close the Waterloo and City. While I don't expect that this is true, what could be done with the infrastructure if this were the case?

Three ideas come to my head - the first is an extra rapid travelator; I've never heard of one of these but by the same token a mechanism for creating one seems pretty obvious to me (basically sidestepping onto incrementally higher speeds with 'messed it up lanes' for those who don't side step in time) so I assume they could exist. The second is a personal pod transit like the business car park at T5 at Heathrow. Finally, and less excitingly but tremendously simple would be electric bikes - this may sound a bit silly, but you could easily give them extra wide handlebars and have narrow doorways at the platforms such that they'd be almost impossible to steal.

What else could be done and how do they compare to just reopening the thing?

 

[bluenoxid]

I guess it depends what the driver for closing it is. If it is low passenger numbers and deteriorating infrastructure, why bother with any other investment. Use the stations for storage.

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess it depends what the driver for closing it is. If it is low passenger numbers and deteriorating infrastructure, why bother with any other investment. Use the stations for storage.

What “deteriorating infrastructure”? They just spent millions on a brand new entrance, and it’s not that long ago the stock was taken away for overhaul, and the line was overhauled while it was away...

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Proper cycles, no need for electric
Is there a gradient?

 

[Nym]

What “deteriorating infrastructure”? They just spent millions on a brand new entrance, and it’s not that long ago the stock was taken away for overhaul, and the line was overhauled while it was away...

An entrance and repainted trains does not make a good piece of railway.

The fleet is in a dire state and is the highest worked by fleet percentage in the country pre-covid.

 

[43096]

The fleet is in a dire state and is the highest worked by fleet percentage in the country pre-covid.

How many sets were required for the peak service?

 

[Mojo]

How many sets were required for the peak service?

All five trains (ten units) were/are used for the peak service.

 

[Nym]

How many sets were required for the peak service?

All of them.

 

[43096]

All of them.

Ta. I thought that was the answer, as there’s plenty of fleets over 80% availability elsewhere.

 

[bramling]

This thread claims that TFL may close the Waterloo and City. While I don't expect that this is true, what could be done with the infrastructure if this were the case?

Three ideas come to my head - the first is an extra rapid travelator; I've never heard of one of these but by the same token a mechanism for creating one seems pretty obvious to me (basically sidestepping onto incrementally higher speeds with 'messed it up lanes' for those who don't side step in time) so I assume they could exist. The second is a personal pod transit like the business car park at T5 at Heathrow. Finally, and less excitingly but tremendously simple would be electric bikes - this may sound a bit silly, but you could easily give them extra wide handlebars and have narrow doorways at the platforms such that they'd be almost impossible to steal.

What else could be done and how do they compare to just reopening the thing?

Make it into a preserved railway and run the preserved class 487 on it, plus a couple of 38 stock off the Isle of Wight.

Okay that suggestion is semi-serious, but what a nice thought.

 

[Nym]

There was once some serious thought to building up and converting some 1967 Mk.2 TS for the W&C and converting the 1992TS W&C line units to 1992TS CL Units to bolster the fleet. But, it's quite a difficult conversion.

 

[bramling]

There was once some serious thought to building up and converting some 1967 Mk.2 TS for the W&C and converting the 1992TS W&C line units to 1992TS CL Units to bolster the fleet. But, it's quite a difficult conversion.

With hindsight the Central Line would have very much benefited from that over the last few years, with the daily litany of fleet-related issues.

I presume by difficult conversion you mean getting the W&C units to the same standard as the Central ones, which with most of the modifications having been done in the 90s would presumably mean quite a bit of very difficult reverse engineering?

 

[Nym]

That wasn't actually the biggest challenge, making the 1967TS design work on the W&C would have been harder, although not impossible.

Getting them to work on the Central Line wasn't going to be *that* hard if one could make some 'sacrifices'.

 

[JKF]

Hasn’t conversion to DLR been suggested before? How difficult would that be, would the tunnels need enlargement (for trains and possibly a walkway for passengers detraining in an emergency?)

Maybe build a DLR extension and use the W&C as a service tunnel for it.

 

[crablab]

They just spent millions on a brand new entrance,

I don't think TfL spent anything, I think the developers of the land above (Bloomberg) did.

Maybe build a DLR extension and use the W&C as a service tunnel for it.

They are on totally separate levels in Bank station, and on a different alignment. You could convert the W&C to a DLR like operation, but linking them up would be economically unviable (I would suggest).

 

[Ianno87]

They are on totally separate levels in Bank station, and on a different alignment. You could convert the W&C to a DLR like operation, but linking them up would be economically unviable (I would suggest).

Dare I say the W&C might be a good trial for driverless operation?

Given (as I understand it) the pool of drivers comes from the Central Line, it need not require any redundancies, but could genuinely reduce the cost of the operation, and avoid what must be the more monotonous/repetitive of driving tasks?

 

[crablab]

Given (as I understand it) the pool of drivers comes from the Central Line, it need not require any redundancies, but could genuinely reduce the cost of the operation, and avoid what must be the more monotonous/repetitive of driving tasks?

I'd agree. I don't think the unions would like it and it would require some significant investment and thus foresight. Some sort of high frequency "people mover", such as at Gatwick, would really seem like the most sensible solution.

Whether it's worth the investment, I don't know.

 

[hwl]

Dare I say the W&C might be a good trial for driverless operation?

Given (as I understand it) the pool of drivers comes from the Central Line, it need not require any redundancies, but could genuinely reduce the cost of the operation, and avoid what must be the more monotonous/repetitive of driving tasks?

I suspect that might have been DfT/HMT's thinking with one of the draft bail out conditions along the lines of "find an existing line to examine for driverless conversion"

 

[SeanG]

But if it was driverless, what would happen to those central line drivers "in the bad books", as I hear that the W&C is used sometimes as a punishment roster

 

[Mojo]

But if it was driverless, what would happen to those central line drivers "in the bad books", as I hear that the W&C is used sometimes as a punishment roster

It isn't; it's the complete opposite. Duties on the drain are considered highly prized and there is a waiting list (or at least always used to be) to be allocated duties at Waterloo.

 

[randyrippley]

convert it into a film set for a new TV series: "Quatermass and the Moneypit" - or should that be Crossrail?

Hasn’t conversion to DLR been suggested before? How difficult would that be, would the tunnels need enlargement (for trains and possibly a walkway for passengers detraining in an emergency?)

Maybe build a DLR extension and use the W&C as a service tunnel for it.

recent thread about it - the conclusion was the tunnels would have to be rebored as they're too small for DLR stock, and theres no room for an emergency walkway

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Some sort of high frequency "people mover", such as at Gatwick, would really seem like the most sensible solution.

I believe conversion to a VAL or similar system was considered when stock replacement was being examined in the late 1980s; obviously the decision must have gone against it.