"I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!"

[LBMPSB]

I worked in the signalling grades for four decades, and when Railtrack changed the name of Signalman to Signaller in the 1990s, the amount of uproar from many of the Signalman. "I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!" To me it made no difference, it was just a name for a job I did, the job didn't change. Now you would think it was the older generation that refuted the change of name, but it wasn't. We had newer staff who joined after the name change and even some of them would say I'm a "I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!", and be quite agressive about it. Railtrack changed it because they were very up on gender specific job titles, ahead of their time. But even though Signaller was gender neutral, we even had female Signallers insisting "I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!". And nearly a quarter of the way into the 21st Century we still have, "I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!" being said.

I wondered if a similar thing applied in other grades?

A Train Driver is non gender, but they were called Enginemen on locomotives or Motormen on Multiple-units. When did their job title name change? And was there the same stance by staff, "I'm an Engineman not a Driver!"?

S&T were Linemen, but now Technicians. Pway were Trackmen, now Track Operatives, etc.

 

[Killingworth]

Would England's battered batters have had more success if they'd been batsmen?!

 

[Bishopstone]

Are signalmen who insist on being called signallers just virtue signalling?

 

[40C]

Signal Controller or Signal Operator might be a better title?

 

[irish_rail]

Don't forget pilotman is now just a pilot! Personally I always use signaller , always think signalman sounds a bit "Thomas the tank" and a bit dated, but everyone is different.

 

[richa2002]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

 

[Tester]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

I'm guessing you are male!

 

[InkyScrolls]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevalent now.

100%! Where's that 'like' button...

 

[HullRailMan]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

Indeed, after all we are huMAN beings. Of course, the easily offended brigade have made an industry out of finding offence where it doesn’t exist.

 

[Boodiggy]

I came up through the P-Way grades and still use the terms from when I started… trackman, leading trackman, track charge-man / ganger

 

[Fermiboson]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

If it doesn’t matter, as you suggest, then you should be able to use whichever term that someone who does care prefers. It’s not that complicated, really.

I personally also don’t care (and I am male, yes), so I just use whatever people ask me to. If one were to insist on the use of the “man” suffix on others, then one should have a valid argument as to why it is preferable as opposed to “the goddamn liberals”.

 

[John Webb]

It's interesting in that on a few occasions when doing demonstrations on the operating floor of the preserved St Albans South box, visitors have queried the use of the term 'Signalman'. I then have to explain that we have no record of there ever being any 'Signalwoman'* working the box, and then mention that the current preferred term is 'Signaller'.
(* We have on display a photo of one lady operating the signals, but she was one of the 'Booking Clerks' employed in the box, partly to do the station platform announcements, and wasn't supposed to operate the signals!)

 

[Oxfordblues]

When I worked at Preston Powerbox in the 1970s one of the station announcers was a young woman who had the unfortunate habit of referring to her colleagues as "single-men"!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

I have to agree, as a 100% male (last time I looked) I really don't think of the suffix "man" as a male only ending. I just prefer endings to words that make the word less of a mouth-full. so sticking "person" on the end instead of "man" makes words more clumsy. For me "Signaller" works fine where "signal person" would be a longer term, indeed so is "signal man".

I have noticed that the suffix "man" is often pronounced "mun". So slipping a "U" in place of the "A" would hopefully make it less gender specific for those who care.

I can see the day when we have to get rid of words/phrases like "mankind", "manhandle".

In French it seems every object has a gender associated with it. That must nowadays either be a minefield or actually might water down the problem.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

It might be how language begun, but it wasn't how it was used contemporarily. If that was the case, we would have called female posties 'postman' too instead of 'postwoman'. See also 'postmaster' and 'postmistress', 'conductor' and 'conductress'. A

Interestingly, the term DEI isn't used much in British English and seems to have been imported from North America by right-wing idealogues. EDI is preferred here. Is it the new 'woke' or 'PC'?

 

[TUC]

If anything, it is those who object to Signalwoman being used where appropriate who appear to be oddly implying that it is somehow lesser (in the same way as someone object to 'Actress')l. In what way does it imply anything less than equality for male signalling staff to be called Signalmen and female staff Signalwomen?

 

[AlterEgo]

Signaller is a much neater term anyway than “signalman”. London Underground had motormen for some time, but the grade is now called driver or train operator without any real fuss.

If anything, it is those who object to Signalwoman being used where appropriate who appear to be oddly implying that it is somehow lesser (in the same way as someone object to 'Actress')l. In what way does it imply anything less than equality for male signalling staff to be called Signalmen and female staff Signalwomen?

Headmistress and manageress have also fallen by the wayside for headteacher and manager. Feel free to rail against those as well to bring a retro feel to the thread.

 

[mangyiscute]

Dont understand why people care so much about calling it signalman over signaller - if people want the latter so that they feel included, why does that matter for you? Oh well, guess this is what I should expect from a forum of what is probably older people who can't grasp the idea that everyone should feel included.
How about we start calling everyone a signalwoman - it has man in it so surely you'd all be perfectly happy with that?

 

[Deepgreen]

Indeed, after all we are huMAN beings. Of course, the easily offended brigade have made an industry out of finding offence where it doesn’t exist.

Yes - there are terms that go back to the start of language and then there are terms which should move with the times. 'Signaller' is fine - 'signalman' was coined when such jobs (and almost every other one on the railway) were done by men. Now that has changed, and rightly so, so titles adapt too. 'Easily offended' must surely include those who object to the term 'signaller' (and the like), accurately descriptive though it is...

 

[Fermiboson]

In French it seems every object has a gender associated with it. That must nowadays either be a minefield or actually might water down the problem.

It is a minefield in gendered languages. In German, for example, teacher (male) is Schuler, and teacher (female) is Schulerin. The new compromise, therefore, is Schuler*in, which is considered rather silly even by the most progressive Germans. It does help that the pronoun “sie” translates to both “she” and “they” in English, and unlike English has an undisputed and continuous history of use as a single person pronoun.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have of course “Latinx”, which is considered little more than a slur by most actual Latino people because of the fact that it was invented by English monolinguals trying to make themselves look good, and the fact that the -o suffix can be neuter in Spanish.

Interestingly, the term DEI isn't used much in British English and seems to have been imported from North America by right-wing idealogues. EDI is preferred here. Is it the new 'woke' or 'PC'?

Yes.

 

[LAX54]

If I recall correctly (probably not!) when the ROCs were first mooted, and the method of working within planned, they were going to be called 'dispatchers'

 

[LBMPSB]

I can understand job titles being gender neutral and have never had any issues regarding this. But when The RSSB extend it to Manned & Unmanned Level Crossing because it means that said crossing can only "manned" or "unmanned" by a man is verging on silly. So instead they use Manually Controlled" & "Open" respectively. Yet the original application of "Manned" means it is attended to by a human and not working automatically. Can we accept "Manually" as Gender Neutral, does it not also imply it can only be a Man that can operate the level crossing?

It is a minefield in gendered languages. In German, for example, teacher (male) is Schuler, and teacher (female) is Schulerin. The new compromise, therefore, is Schuler*in, which is considered rather silly even by the most progressive Germans. It does help that the pronoun “sie” translates to both “she” and “they” in English, and unlike English has an undisputed and continuous history of use as a single person pronoun.

Of course in the German language, there is also a Neutral (Neutar) gender as well as male and female.

If I recall correctly (probably not!) when the ROCs were first mooted, and the method of working within planned, they were going to be called 'dispatchers'

In the USA & Canada a Dispatcher is exacly what their equivilant of a Signaller is called.

 

[Fermiboson]

Of course in the German language, there is also a Neutral (Neuter [sic]) gender as well as male and female.

And it is also prudent to remind the predominantly European demographic here that the majority of non-Indo-European languages don’t have grammatical gender, or indeed, gendered pronouns at all!

 

[Frothy_B]

I think the railway is one of those careers where enthusiasm, nostalgia, tradition and reality can often come into conflict, albeit in a minor way.

The railways of yesterday are heavily romanticised. My Dad wanted to become a driver after watching the last steam and the diesels of the 60's and 70's thunder up and down the WCML. My Grandfather wanted to be a "Signalman" after seeing the local boxes as a boy.

There's still an image in the public consciousness as Signallers as solitary workers in little wooden huts, with a little stove and metal kettle, the box's cat curled up on their lap between trains, waving at the drivers as they pass. These are the "Signalmen" and I'm sure many have applied and joined over the years (myself included) because of these ideas and the sense of joining something with a rich history and tradition.

The time of the "Signalmen" and the job/life associated with it is rapidly coming to an end. It's a world away from the sanitised corporateness of an Operations floor. It's understandable that some, even younger or newer employees would struggle against the tide and for the most part it's harmless enough, if for no other reason than change is inevitable and no amount of holding on to outdated terminology can stop it.

There are still drivers who answer the phone with "Hello Bobby!", another term which will likely retire alongside the last drivers of that era.

It doesn't really matter what people refer to themselves as, the official job title is Signaller and has been for a number of years, so that's what we are. If someone says "oh you're a Signalman" or "All men and materials are clear of the line and in a position of safety" I'm not going to correct them because it's irrelevant and the meaning is understood even if the terminology used is outdated.

 

[LAX54]

In the USA & Canada a Dispatcher is exacly what their equivilant of a Signaller is called.

It is, and it's where they got the idea from I assume,

 

[12LDA28C]

Signal Controller or Signal Operator might be a better title?

Nobody is going to want to say 'Signal Controller'. Some drivers still call signallers the 'Bobby'.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure where anyone has said you may not call yourself a signalman, if that's what you want to do that seems totally fine. There's no rules against it. Has someone told you that's not permitted?

Or are you saying that if a female signaller said they didn't want to be known as a 'signalman', you'd tell them that they were wrong and call them that anyway?

 

[12LDA28C]

If I recall correctly (probably not!) when the ROCs were first mooted, and the method of working within planned, they were going to be called 'dispatchers'

That's odd, as we already have dispatchers on the railway, having two grades with the same title would cause confusion.

 

[Turtle]

It might be how language begun, but it wasn't how it was used contemporarily. If that was the case, we would have called female posties 'postman' too instead of 'postwoman'. See also 'postmaster' and 'postmistress', 'conductor' and 'conductress'. A

Interestingly, the term DEI isn't used much in British English and seems to have been imported from North America by right-wing idealogues. EDI is preferred here. Is it the new 'woke' or 'PC'?

Indeed. That was the first time I've encountered EDI in a British context, apart from right wing reports emanating from the US.
Broadly speaking the -ess ending arises where female took over traditional males roles in the earlier 20th century, usually in war time. Apart from old established actor/ actress, we gained some feminine suffixes but not others; conductress but not porteress, driveress, pilotess etc. English language tends to the neutral. Thatcher and her two successors were not Prime Ministeresses but Merkel was a Bundeskanzlerin, not Bundeskanzler.(Hope my German is OK!)

 

[geoffk]

A fireman (in the Fire Service) is now a firefighter, but what do we now call a fireman on a steam loco? Some are women. A fireperson sounds silly, the US term "stoker" perhaps?