"I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!"

[Deepgreen]

That's odd, as we already have dispatchers on the railway, having two grades with the same title would cause confusion.

More importantly, to 'dispatch' means, broadly, to 'see/send away', whereas signallers both stop trains and allow their progress.

A fireman (in the Fire Service) is now a firefighter, but what do we now call a fireman on a steam loco? Some are women. A fireperson sounds silly, the US term "stoker" perhaps?

'Firer'? Or is that too Alan Sugar...?

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

Use of the American term "DEI" seems to be a new indicator of those who've latched onto the latest right-wing 'culture wars' babbel imported from across the Atlantic.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Dont understand why people care so much about calling it signalman over signaller - if people want the latter so that they feel included, why does that matter for you? Oh well, guess this is what I should expect from a forum of what is probably older people who can't grasp the idea that everyone should feel included.
How about we start calling everyone a signalwoman - it has man in it so surely you'd all be perfectly happy with that?

One feature of older people is they will have seen more changes than younger people. Change is most often something people push against unless it is their own idea. Its just natural.

I can imagine many will not see the gender as significant. But if the male gender is used it is less likely to offend a man than a woman. Turning the tables and seeing what a man makes of the female gender version would probably show the same but is unlikely to happen.

For me its nice if a description is gender-less but I prefer it to be still short and simple. But I can see change is something that many have to "deal with".

---

To clarify something else that is potentially confused up thread.
There is a difference between :-
a) How someone wants to name their own job role (where they don't care about gender).
b) How the job role is defined - for instance in a job advert it is more important to be gender-less so as not to infer preference for male or female applicants.

 

[bleeder4]

In my opinion, the "man" in words like "signalman", "fireman" etc is a reference to species, not gender. There are a few species in which the same word is used to refer both to the male gender and the species in general. Dog is one example. A female dog is a bitch, but there is no separate word for a male dog. The term "guide dog" could therefore refer to dogs of either gender - we don't say "guide bitch". It is the same with our species - we use the same word to refer to the male gender and the species as a whole.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In my opinion, the "man" in words like "signalman", "fireman" etc is a reference to species, not gender. There are a few species in which the same word is used to refer both to the male gender and the species in general. Dog is one example. A female dog is a bitch, but there is no separate word for a male dog. The term "guide dog" could therefore refer to dogs of either gender - we don't say "guide bitch". It is the same with our species - we use the same word to refer to the male gender and the species as a whole.

True.

 

[12LDA28C]

Indeed. That was the first time I've encountered EDI in a British context, apart from right wing reports emanating from the US.
Broadly speaking the -ess ending arises where female took over traditional males roles in the earlier 20th century, usually in war time. Apart from old established actor/ actress, we gained some feminine suffixes but not others; conductress but not porteress, driveress, pilotess etc. English language tends to the neutral. Thatcher and her two successors were not Prime Ministeresses but Merkel was a Bundeskanzlerin, not Bundeskanzler.(Hope my German is OK!)

If a job title literally describes the action of carrying out the task involved, such as actor, porter, conductor, driver, pilot, Prime Minister, why would we 'genderise' the job title by adding -ess, if the job can be done equally well by a man or woman and it makes no difference if the holder of that position is male or female?

 

[Nick82]

Surprised Second Man side still exists. Heard rumours of a change but never experienced it. Anyone had any experiences on a different name. Second person does not exactly work lol

Drivers side/Non Drivers side maybe one.

 

[Turtle]

True.

I was once rebuked in Ireland for referring to someone's dog as a bitch. The preferred expression in that location was apparently "she dog." Similarly, army married quarters were known as "she barracks".

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Signal Controller or Signal Operator might be a better title?

But signalmen/signallers also operate points...not to mention lots of other equipment like block bells, telephones etc...etc...

 

[AlterEgo]

The preferred expression in that location was apparently "she dog." Similarly, army married quarters were known as "she barracks".

The first is not something I've come across, but the second is correct!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

We also have female, woman and menopause - all relating to women of course...

 

[Fermiboson]

We also have female, woman and menopause - all relating to women of course...

While the etymology of "woman" comes from Old English "wimman" (i.e. neuter "wif" + "man"), "female" comes from Latin "femilla" which is derived from the PIE root *dhē- "to suckle" (which is why female shares the first syllable with the term for a certain sexual act involving suckling), and has nothing to do with male. In German, the root "man" splits into modern day "Mann" for man/husband and "Mensch" for people in general. Meno- comes from Greek mēnos (month) and also has nothing to do with men.

 

[cuccir]

In my opinion, the "man" in words like "signalman", "fireman" etc is a reference to species, not gender. There are a few species in which the same word is used to refer both to the male gender and the species in general. Dog is one example. A female dog is a bitch, but there is no separate word for a male dog. The term "guide dog" could therefore refer to dogs of either gender - we don't say "guide bitch". It is the same with our species - we use the same word to refer to the male gender and the species as a whole.

This seems like the etymological fallacy.

Whether the origin of the word 'man' is in its use to refer to humanity or in specific reference to the male gender, it is now heard widely enough to mean 'male' - including when used to refer to humanity as a whole - that it is better to avoid its use when practical alternatives exist. It is really no loss or harm to let language change that way.

On a lighter note, there was a Radio 4 comedy on a few months ago which made a joke out of the comedian saying "fireman" and then correcting it to "firefighter", and subsequently through the show correcting other gendered job names in the same way eg "When I was a kid I always loved it when the ice cream man - sorry, ice cream fighter - would come around"

 

[m0ffy]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

“DEI ideology” = employers trying to attract people who haven’t traditionally shown interest in roles/companies/industries.

 

[CarrotPie]

I can understand job titles being gender neutral and have never had any issues regarding this. But when The RSSB extend it to Manned & Unmanned Level Crossing because it means that said crossing can only "manned" or "unmanned" by a man is verging on silly. So instead they use Manually Controlled" & "Open" respectively. Yet the original application of "Manned" means it is attended to by a human and not working automatically. Can we accept "Manually" as Gender Neutral, does it not also imply it can only be a Man that can operate the level crossing?

Staffed and unstaffed, anyone?

In my opinion, the "man" in words like "signalman", "fireman" etc is a reference to species, not gender. There are a few species in which the same word is used to refer both to the male gender and the species in general. Dog is one example. A female dog is a bitch, but there is no separate word for a male dog. The term "guide dog" could therefore refer to dogs of either gender - we don't say "guide bitch". It is the same with our species - we use the same word to refer to the male gender and the species as a whole.

Do we? I thought we used "human" to describe us as a species, as opposed to calling everyone a "man", but maybe that's just me...

If a job title literally describes the action of carrying out the task involved, such as actor, porter, conductor, driver, pilot, Prime Minister, why would we 'genderise' the job title by adding -ess, if the job can be done equally well by a man or woman and it makes no difference if the holder of that position is male or female?

*like*

 

[Taunton]

In the USA & Canada a Dispatcher is exactly what their equivalent of a Signaller is called.

Not really, the Dispatcher has a wider view, they can be just supervising and deciding what runs on which track, or where CTC is installed may set points and signals at the console, but over a wide area. Individual signalboxes, under their orders, are called Towers, and the levers are handled by a Towerman.

Meanwhile, back in the UK, what does the F in ASLEF stand for?

 

[12LDA28C]

Not really, the Dispatcher has a wider view, they can be just supervising and deciding what runs on which track, or where CTC is installed may set points and signals at the console, but over a wide area. Individual signalboxes, under their orders, are called Towers, and the levers are handled by a Towerman.

Meanwhile, back in the UK, what does the F in ASLEF stand for?

Firemen of course, although that terminology isn't really relevant on the modern railway, perserved/heritage railways or steam-hauled railtours excepted.

 

[chuff chuff]

Drivers side/Non Drivers side maybe.

Have seen non drivers side used in a repair book.

 

[CarrotPie]

Firemen of course, although that terminology isn't really relevant on the modern railway, perserved/heritage railways or steam-hauled railtours excepted.

It was, however, appropriate in 1880, when ASLEF was formed.

 

[12LDA28C]

It was, however, appropriate in 1880, when ASLEF was formed.

Indeed, as was 'Enginemen'.

 

[Efini92]

Surprised Second Man side still exists. Heard rumours of a change but never experienced it. Anyone had any experiences on a different name. Second person does not exactly work lol

Drivers side/Non Drivers side maybe one.

It’s referred to as non drivers side, but everyone still uses secondmans side.

 

[TUC]

And it is also prudent to remind the predominantly European demographic here that the majority of non-Indo-European languages don’t have grammatical gender, or indeed, gendered pronouns at all!

But what matters in the UK is what works naturally in the English language surely?

 

[David Burrows]

But what matters in the UK is what works naturally in the English language surely?

Perhaps we should go to the daftest non-sexist invention. A person who is in charge of a meeting was formerly a 'chairman', but the loonies decided that that mentioned a MAN, and it would be bad to call someone a 'chairwoman' thus we now somehow call said person a 'chair' (just imagine being the chair of a think-tank,whatever that may be). Thus problem solved, the person, male, female or undecided who shovels coal on a steam enging, or puts out fires must surely be called a 'fire'. The person operating signals must be referred to as a 'signal' and someone enforcing the law must be a 'police'.

 

[D365]

Have seen non drivers side used in a repair book.

It’s referred to as non drivers side, but everyone still uses secondmans side.

”Non drivers side” (NDS) is exactly the terminology that we use for ETCS onboard fitments.

 

[43096]

Perhaps we should go to the daftest non-sexist invention. A person who is in charge of a meeting was formerly a 'chairman', but the loonies decided that that mentioned a MAN, and it would be bad to call someone a 'chairwoman' thus we now somehow call said person a 'chair' (just imagine being the chair of a think-tank,whatever that may be). Thus problem solved, the person, male, female or undecided who shovels coal on a steam enging, or puts out fires must surely be called a 'fire'. The person operating signals must be referred to as a 'signal' and someone enforcing the law must be a 'police'.

Reminds me of the reference to Labour politician Harriet Harman (who was rather involved with this sort of use of language) as “Harriet Harperson”.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Regarding the -man suffix:
In the past there were few more formidable MPs than Gwyneth Dunwoody, Chairman of the Transport Select Committee. When someone addressed her as 'Chair' she replied that she was not a piece of furniture!
Pat

 

[infobleep]

I've always found it odd how signalman, or any term with man as a suffix, is not seen as gender neutral. We are all mankind and woman has man as a suffix. It was just the very start of the backward DEI ideology which is so prevelant now.

What is DEI and if it is American, I object more to American terms terms and spellings being used in our la garage than things like spokesperson and signaller.

 

[devon_belle]

Signal Operator

Why not please both brigades by introducing Signal Operator/Operatrix (gendered, but without the use of -man)! Tongue in cheek, of course...

If the adoption of gender-neutral terms makes people feel more included then it's a good thing in my books. I imagine the old-school crowd may not understand the difference that these sorts of inclusivity measures can make to the approachability of an industry.

 

[TUC]

I can see why some women may be offended by the generic use of 'signalman', but if that terms is reserved for males, and 'signalwoman' for females, if anything that is more inclusive, not less.

 

[davetheguard]

There are still drivers who answer the phone with "Hello Bobby!", another term which will likely retire alongside the last drivers of that era.

You've beaten me to it.

Perhaps Bobby should be the official job title. It could be short for Robert or Roberta so not gender specific either!