In Scotland, use Class 800 series instead of HSTs

[HSTEd]

Why tilting?

Combination of tilting trains and magnetic track brakes for emergency use (level crossings etc) would allow substantial improvements in train speed beyond those currently obtained on these lines.

 

[hexagon789]

Combination of tilting trains and magnetic track brakes for emergency use (level crossings etc) would allow substantial improvements in train speed beyond those currently obtained on these lines.

I'm not convinced the route would benefit much from fitting tilt equipment tbh.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not convinced the route would benefit much from fitting tilt equipment tbh.

With magnetic track brakes and tilting you should be able to sustain 100mph over much of the route, assuming the EMU can keep it's axle loadings down.
Electric traction will permit significant time savings even without the relatively short stop spacings.

Also remember that on single track lines increasing line speeds increases capacity.

 

[muddythefish]

To Stanraer, Oban, Mallaig, Kyle of Lochalsh, Wick and Thurso to ensure nobody misses out. Good plan - file it in the "never ever" box. In 25 years time someone will find it and say it's brilliant, let's get it done!

Similar single track lines across Europe are electrified. Why not here ?

 

[hexagon789]

With magnetic track brakes and tilting you should be able to sustain 100mph over much of the route, assuming the EMU can keep it's axle loadings down.
Electric traction will permit significant time savings even without the relatively short stop spacings.

Also remember that on single track lines increasing line speeds increases capacity.

Indeed it does, I'm just not entirely convinced tilt would allow massively increased speeds on a route like the WHL.

 

[haggishunter]

Indeed it does, I'm just not entirely convinced tilt would allow massively increased speeds on a route like the WHL.

Another aspect to this debate is what proportion of a lines users and potential user base wants to go faster? It's not a clear cut division between tourist travellers and local / business travellers either, some visiting will be using the train for simply a means of getting from A to B, for others the train will be if not the experience in itself a significant part of it.

The later would rather trundle along and take in the view than pass everything in a blur... While those for whom its about A to B, many would want better journey times, but there will also be a (possibly growing) proportion for whom a better onboard environment, improved and robust digital connectivity and onboard service would be valued above and perhaps even negate the case for a shorter journey. If you have an environment where you can work productively and get good refreshments to refuel yourself, if the time on board is enjoyable and/or productive, then there is less need for speed?

Thus perhaps there is there a case for local trains for local people, and slower more service / tourist focussed trains for visitors with significantly more space. Yes there is the Royal Scotsman, but most visitors are wanting grand views not to spend a grand a day - there seems to be a gaping blackhole of a void between a rammed 156 and the Royal Scotsman!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is this a good time to point out that magnetic track brakes are only used at very low speeds in emergencies because they can be somewhat destructive?

 

[HSTEd]

Is this a good time to point out that magnetic track brakes are only used at very low speeds in emergencies because they can be somewhat destructive?

The RSSB standard for magnetic track brakes does state that, under the TSIs, they should not be used at high speeds..... of greater than 280km/h

Not really an issue at 100mph is it?

The later would rather trundle along and take in the view than pass everything in a blur... While those for whom its about A to B, many would want better journey times, but there will also be a (possibly growing) proportion for whom a better onboard environment, improved and robust digital connectivity and onboard service would be valued above and perhaps even negate the case for a shorter journey. If you have an environment where you can work productively and get good refreshments to refuel yourself, if the time on board is enjoyable and/or productive, then there is less need for speed?

Leaving aside whether or not taxpayer funded railways should be providing pleasure cruises and such rather than serious transport options - the environment and catering on the train will always be inferior to that provided at a static installation like a hotel or restaurant.

Catering and such on services tends to get less in demand as travel times shrink because there are inevitably better options at the ends.

There is serious untapped tourism potential in the Scottish Highlands, especially in the vicinityo f Fort William that could be unlocked by drastically reduced travel times and such.

And shrinking the travel times to Caithness will still result in a several hour journey from the Central Belt.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The RSSB standard for magnetic track brakes does state that, under the TSIs, they should not be used at high speeds..... of greater than 280km/h

Not really an issue at 100mph is it?

Didn't realise it was as high as that; I was going by the way they are used on trams and I seem to recall that they are only able to be deployed below a certain speed as a final stage of emergency braking - which is the only place they are used in the UK at present.

 

[HSTEd]

Didn't realise it was as high as that; I was going by the way they are used on trams and I seem to recall that they are only able to be deployed below a certain speed as a final stage of emergency braking - which is the only place they are used in the UK at present.

On the continent they seem to be used as a means of overcoming poor rail adhesion in heavy rail at much higher speeds.

 

[hexagon789]

Another aspect to this debate is what proportion of a lines users and potential user base wants to go faster? It's not a clear cut division between tourist travellers and local / business travellers either, some visiting will be using the train for simply a means of getting from A to B, for others the train will be if not the experience in itself a significant part of it.

The later would rather trundle along and take in the view than pass everything in a blur... While those for whom its about A to B, many would want better journey times, but there will also be a (possibly growing) proportion for whom a better onboard environment, improved and robust digital connectivity and onboard service would be valued above and perhaps even negate the case for a shorter journey. If you have an environment where you can work productively and get good refreshments to refuel yourself, if the time on board is enjoyable and/or productive, then there is less need for speed?

Thus perhaps there is there a case for local trains for local people, and slower more service / tourist focussed trains for visitors with significantly more space. Yes there is the Royal Scotsman, but most visitors are wanting grand views not to spend a grand a day - there seems to be a gaping blackhole of a void between a rammed 156 and the Royal Scotsman!

Difficult to strike a balance other than by having two service levels perhaps.

On the continent they seem to be used as a means of overcoming poor rail adhesion in heavy rail at much higher speeds.

Only in emergencies afaiaa, I know DB use Eddy current brakes on ICE3s for service braking but magnetic track brakes I believe are strictly emergency only.

 

[HSTEd]

Only in emergencies afaiaa, I know DB use Eddy current brakes on ICE3s for service braking but magnetic track brakes I believe are strictly emergency only.

Indeed, but in this case the primary use case would things like emergency braking on approach to an obstructed level crossing.
Service brake applications are much less important since we have de-facto cab signalling on these routes with RETB already.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed, but in this case the primary use case would things like emergency braking on approach to an obstructed level crossing.
Service brake applications are much less important since we have de-facto cab signalling on these routes with RETB already.

It's not really cab-signalling as such, it doesn't display target speeds, speed limits or anything like that.

 

[HSTEd]

It's not really cab-signalling as such, it doesn't display target speeds, speed limits or anything like that.

Yeah, but we have no concerns with signal sighting which removes a primary speed constraint.

 

[Highlandspring]

Yeah, but we have no concerns with signal sighting which removes a primary speed constraint.

Hello, former Route Signal Sighting Engineer speaking... all operational lineside signage intended for drivers is subject to the formal signal sighting process and the scrutiny of the Signal Sighting Committee. In RETB areas that’s the Stop Boards and LSIs, Fixed Distants, PSIs, Loop Clear Markers and all speed signage including level crossing SSRBs.

 

[HSTEd]

Hello, former Route Signal Sighting Engineer speaking... all operational lineside signage intended for drivers is subject to the formal signal sighting process and the scrutiny of the Signal Sighting Committee. In RETB areas that’s the Stop Boards and LSIs, Fixed Distants, PSIs, Loop Clear Markers and all speed signage including level crossing SSRBs.

Whilst it is true that stop boards and the like will require sighting, the fact is that they will always be required to stop at them.
Which means trains can be expected to brake on approach, we can provide fixed distants for them. Potentially multiple distant boards.

Failure to slow on approach would thus, arguably, become an emergency situation, which means I think I could make a SFIRP argument for permitting an emergency brake application rather than merely a service brake application.
At which point we can take credit for the magnetic track brakes.

 

[Highlandspring]

Whilst it is true that stop boards and the like will require sighting, the fact is that they will always be required to stop at them.

Apart from when you have a Long Section Token of course.

Which means trains can be expected to brake on approach, we can provide fixed distants for them. Potentially multiple distant boards.

Multiple fixed distants... what?

 

[HSTEd]

Apart from when you have a Long Section Token of course

How often would fast passenger trains be issued with long section tokens, given that most (all?) of the Token Exchange Points are at stations?

Multiple fixed distants... what?

Well isn't a fixed distant conceptually a signal that only ever shows a single aspect?
That means that you could conceptually provided a fixed amber, and a fixed double amber if you wanted.
Most trains would ignore the double amber because of the speed at which they are travelling, but the faster moving trains would treat it as the instruction to start slowing.

 

[Highlandspring]

Aye, keep digging...

 

[yoyothehobo]

I wonder what the fastest possible speed a token exchange with a signaller can take place...

 

[hexagon789]

I wonder what the fastest possible speed a token exchange with a signaller can take place...

A physical token or RETB?

 

[Esker-pades]

How often would fast passenger trains be issued with long section tokens, given that most (all?) of the Token Exchange Points are at stations?

Clunes IB (between Inverness to Beauly), Fodderty IB (between Garve and Dingwall), Evanton IB (between Alness and Dingwall) at least on the North Highland Lines.

Rogart is a request stop and a passing loop; only one passing move is planned there (between a freight and a passenger) so most services get a long token through.

Also, if there's nothing on the line, one might as well issue a long token so that the signaller has less work and the driver has fewer things to worry about.

(I'm not in the railway, so I don't know how often long tokens are issued, but given what I've set out up there it'll be a reasonably frequent occurance.)

 

[gingertom]

You make a good point. A few years ago Stagecoach were frequently rostering local type buses from Portree to Fort William and it quickly got attention as it was a poor experience. The railway can't really compete on that route so their position was more robust.

Contrast that with a family member's situation tomorrow. They will not take the train and have chosen to take an inconvenient, in terms of onward connections, Citylink service from Inverness to specifically avoid the train. That is where we are when members of the public will actively work to avoid the train.

But the route is very busy right now as the Highlands are full of tourists so the lack of capacity shows and it appears everyone is happy to support the train. Not so in Edinburgh.

In terms of what to do, get as many refurb HSTs in service asap but accept that they are a stop-gap until a new order is placed.

do you think ScotRail should attempt to piggy-back on the order for the AT300s being sourced for East Midland Railway? 5x 24m car sets, 4x gensets in the consist, with an option to add an extra powered car should demand warrant it?
Anyone prepared to bet if Hitachi could build and get them accepted into service before the final refurb HST from Wabtec?

 

[Highland37]

I think there is a fair chance that a new order would have been a lot faster than the current shambles.

 

[43096]

do you think ScotRail should attempt to piggy-back on the order for the AT300s being sourced for East Midland Railway? 5x 24m car sets, 4x gensets in the consist, with an option to add an extra powered car should demand warrant it?
Anyone prepared to bet if Hitachi could build and get them accepted into service before the final refurb HST from Wabtec?

At the current rate of progress of one set per month, ScotRail will have 11 sets by the end of the year, with last one in around March 2021. Given the delivery of the EMR AT300s is scheduled for 2022, ScotRail would be at best getting them in parallel - and they haven't started any procurement process.

 

[Paul Kerr]

At the current rate of progress of one set per month, ScotRail will have 11 sets by the end of the year, with last one in around March 2021. Given the delivery of the EMR AT300s is scheduled for 2022, ScotRail would be at best getting them in parallel - and they haven't started any procurement process.

Also paying for a new fleet of AT300s would be more expensive and the bimodes with their lower power to weight ratio will not perform as well on the long 1 in 60 climb southbound to Slochd, and the 15+ mile northbound climb at 1 in 70 wouldn't be a walk in the park either. Based on the funding ScotRail had, really I think the HSTs were the best solution at the time and the teething issues with the AT300s show that they wouldn't necessarily be a panacea either. The management of the project has been poor, no doubt about that, but switching out to bimodes now is not the answer. The refurbished sets seem to have been very well received and compare very favourably with the much vaunted AT300s. Give ScotRail and the HSTs a chance. They are already looking at strengthening all formations to 5 car, which is the right way forward. The bicycle accommodation really does need to be addressed but with some creative and positive thinking I'm sure a solution can be found.

 

[Craig2601]

Also paying for a new fleet of AT300s would be more expensive and the bimodes with their lower power to weight ratio will not perform as well on the long 1 in 60 climb southbound to Slochd, and the 15+ mile northbound climb at 1 in 70 wouldn't be a walk in the park either. Based on the funding ScotRail had, really I think the HSTs were the best solution at the time and the teething issues with the AT300s show that they wouldn't necessarily be a panacea either. The management of the project has been poor, no doubt about that, but switching out to bimodes now is not the answer. The refurbished sets seem to have been very well received and compare very favourably with the much vaunted AT300s. Give ScotRail and the HSTs a chance. They are already looking at strengthening all formations to 5 car, which is the right way forward. The bicycle accommodation really does need to be addressed but with some creative and positive thinking I'm sure a solution can be found.

But at the end of the day however good HSTs are they are approaching the end of their lifespan - and new trains will be needed soon enough.

 

[hexagon789]

Also paying for a new fleet of AT300s would be more expensive and the bimodes with their lower power to weight ratio will not perform as well on the long 1 in 60 climb southbound to Slochd, and the 15+ mile northbound climb at 1 in 70 wouldn't be a walk in the park either.

The new 5-cars AT300 units for EMR would probably suit - 4 engines instead of 3.