Incident at Loversall Carr (Doncaster) involving two freight trains (05/07/22)

[66701GBRF]

Seems like quite an isolated section of track, I thought going by ott maps there might have been lots of other lines beside it but the video shows trees , must be behind them

yes main lines are about 20ft behind the camera (overhead line structure side)

 

[Skymonster]

i believe it’s on the single like section just to the right and above of the wiggly-shaped pond (almost right in the centre of the image, to the left of the wider double track section). there are some pics of it taken from the footbridge bottom right looking northwest with a telephoto lens on WNXX. The front of 66 is quite a way of the track. It’s going to be an interesting recovery as it’s going to be difficult to get any heavy lifting alongside.

 

[class 9]

Skymonster, yes you are correct.

 

[trainmania100]

Assume they'll pull the good wagons away from behind, then they'll bring a crane in behind that and clear it out from behind , or something like that.

One of those big cranes at Salisbury tunnel crash would have been good but no roads nearby to lift it

 

[66701GBRF]

It is also a site of special scientific interest which doesn't help with recovery.

 

[357]

I'm told the train did 58mph past the prior signal and was being signalled permissively

 

[zwk500]

Assume they'll pull the good wagons away from behind, then they'll bring a crane in behind that and clear it out from behind , or something like that.

One of those big cranes at Salisbury tunnel crash would have been good but no roads nearby to lift it

A crane will be fun with the OLE stanchions there! Going to cost quite a bit to sort this one out.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I'm told the train did 58mph past the prior signal and was being signalled permissively

Heard the same.

 

[zwk500]

I'm surprised D197 has a permissive aspect, given there does not seem to be any regular need for permissive working.

 

[800001]

I'm told the train did 58mph past the prior signal and was being signalled permissively

can’t understand why it would be permissively signalled at that location.
It is covered by normal colour signals at that point, and is still part of main operational running lines (ie not yard lines etc).

 

[66701GBRF]

I'm surprised D197 has a permissive aspect, given there does not seem to be any regular need for permissive working.

it doesn’t, one reason why listening to messroom gossip isn’t always a good idea.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

it doesn’t, one reason why listening to messroom gossip isn’t always a good idea.

any idea of the speed of the turnout onto these lines?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

any idea of the speed of the turnout onto these lines?

Think it's 70.

 

[zwk500]

any idea of the speed of the turnout onto these lines?

70 off the main line, dropping to 50mph halfway along the chord (LNE Section Appendix, p243 - LN160) https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...orth Eastern Sectional Appendix June 2022.pdf

 

[66701GBRF]

The diverging route is also covered by flashing aspects which is what the train was signalled under.

 

[Signal_Box]

Heard the same.

You wouldn’t get the dots off at 58 the track sxttion needs to be occupied for a certain time before it’ll come off.

IF it was 58 (which I seriously doubt) the train would of had to fly past the previous signal on yellow, over speed sensors and tpws stop girds. To get down go 58 would suggest doing a significant speed above.

No driver is going to be doing close to train speed at a single yellow unless unresponsive - if they where the DSD wousl drop the brakes.

58 no chance !

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The diverging route is also covered by flashing aspects which is what the train was signalled under.

do you get flashing aspects on signals in rear with D191 showing a Y?

 

[Tractor37]

No driver is going to be doing close to train speed at a single yellow unless unresolved - if they where the DSD wousl drop the brakes.

58 no chance !

Why would passing a single yellow at whatever speed cause the DSD to drop the brakes? The DSD is nothing to do with signalling, the only time it will drop the brakes is if no response is made to the beeping sound every 45 to 60 seconds by releasing the DSD pedal and pressing it back down. Unless controls are moved, which will reset the counter. The DSD is there to ensure the driver is awake/conscious.

 

[Signal_Box]

Why would passing a single yellow at whatever speed cause the DSD to drop the brakes? The DSD is nothing to do with signalling, the only time it will drop the brakes is if no response is made to the beeping sound every 45 to 60 seconds by releasing the DSD pedal and pressing it back down. Unless controls are moved, which will reset the counter. The DSD is there to ensure the driver is awake/conscious.

Auto correct changed unresponsive to something else which messed up the rest.

 

[David Goddard]

Both had worked up from Felixstowe, having left there in the early hours, both were running early and both were within an hour of their destinations in the Sheffield area.

 

[Tractor37]

I think i missed out the driver not responsive which would drop the brake via the DSD.

Yes if the driver didn’t respond to the DSD bleeping it would most certainly drop the brakes anywhere on route. Not cancelling the AWS within 3 seconds of receiving a warning horn would also drop the brake.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Another interesting one for RAIB to unpick but with OTMDR they will quickly get to understand sequence of events with 4E11 and there ought to be data loggers on the signalling system.

 

[class 9]

do you get flashing aspects on signals in rear with D191 showing a Y?

Yes, here's the normal sequence, D191 would also have a number 1 route indicator.

 

[357]

As I said in my first post, I don't have a definitive source for the OTDR data I've received. However, it is certainly something many drivers will be following to find out how one train rear ended another at that speed.

 

[Efini92]

As I said in my first post, I don't have a definitive source for the OTDR data I've received. However, it is certainly something many drivers will be following to find out how one train rear ended another at that speed.

I think the answer is pretty obvious

 

[357]

I think the answer is pretty obvious

And as we know in our industry, incidents rarely have just one cause and often the main cause isn't the one that was thought to be obvious

 

[malc-c]

For the layman following this thread could someone explain what permissively signalled means. As someone outside the industry I'm only familiar with the normal four aspect type signalling which in theory should have the signal behind a train at the red aspect, with a single yellow at the signal before that... therefor wouldn't the driver of the second train of had a SPAD ? - Apologies if this is the wrong conception, as I said, I'm not in the industry, juts have a general interest.

Edit - just googled and seen its when a second train is given permission to effectively pass a red signal and enter an occupied section of track....

 

[66701GBRF]

Permissive means allowing more than one train in a signaling section/block. The train that is running into a permissive section must be brought to a slow speed then given a separate signal (two white lights in a track circuit block area) to enter the permissive section where the train must travel at speed where it can safely stop either before the next signal or obstruction (other trains). Where the collision happened is not permissive so that is not part of the incident.

 

[GC class B1]

For the layman following this thread could someone explain what permissively signalled means. As someone outside the industry I'm only familiar with the normal four aspect type signalling which in theory should have the signal behind a train at the red aspect, with a single yellow at the signal before that... therefor wouldn't the driver of the second train of had a SPAD ? - Apologies if this is the wrong conception, as I said, I'm not in the industry, juts have a general interest.

I am not a signalling specialist but I can give a basic description of my understanding of permissive working. Permissive working is only applicable in specific locations, I know that one type of location where it may be permitted is stations. In permissive working a train is allowed into a section that is already occupied by another train. The signal protecting the section will be still red but in the situations I am aware of a calling on signal (I think usually a number of small white lights ) permits the train to enter the occupied section and the driver must ensure that he can stop before the other train is reached. This is useful for coupling to another set in a station or for two trains to occupy the same platform. I am sure one of the signallers on the forum will provide more information.

 

[AndrewE]

Most signalled railway track is "Absolute block," i.e each train has exclusive use of a block section and no other train is allowed in until the section is proved clear. Freights are allowed to use "permissive block" where another is alllowed to follow on into the section having received some sort of official warning. Approach lines to marshalling yards are a good example of where (once upon a time) trains used to queue up to get in, taking up less track and causing less congestion back down the line than if each one occupierd a section of its own.