Incident on Thameslink 25/11/18 - man pouring 'petrol' on himself and train

[jon0844]

Surprised there isn't anything in the news about the incident this morning where a member of the public poured what was believed to be petrol on himself and a train (later found to be olive oil) with the power shut off and a train evacuation. Caused loads of disruption as you can imagine.

Details seem light, but was he arrested? It must have been quite scary for passengers and staff.

 

[Jonfun]

I would imagine he'd be detained under the Mental Health Act. I seem to recall a similar incident on a London Midland a few years back, though I believe that actually waa petrol.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would imagine he'd be detained under the Mental Health Act. I seem to recall a similar incident on a London Midland a few years back, though I believe that actually waa petrol.

Surely you'd have to be diagnosed with something to be detained under the Mental Health Act? A charge with some sort of public order offence should give them time to obtain such a diagnosis.

 

[Intermodal]

Surely you'd have to be diagnosed with something to be detained under the Mental Health Act? A charge with some sort of public order offence should give them time to obtain such a diagnosis.

You don't need to be diagnosed with anything to be detained under s136 of the Mental Health Act, the section police use. After all, how would a police officer be able to make a diagnosis? Police simply must suspect you have a mental illness, need care/controlling and you must be in a public place.

s136 of the Mental Health Act is very important with regard to ensuring people do not get falsely criminalised for a health issue. Arresting this person for a public order offense could make their recovery even harder than it needs to be.

 

[Surreytraveller]

You don't need to be diagnosed with anything to be detained under s136 of the Mental Health Act, the section police use. After all, how would a police officer be able to make a diagnosis?

Presumably it would already be someone known to be ill. Surely the person would be detained under a specific thing they've just done - you cannot detain people for simply being mentally ill - they have to be a threat to themselves ir other people

 

[Surreytraveller]

What class of train was this? If it was a class 700, and they had poured petrol over themselves and set it alight, how would you prevent a fire and smoke spreading throughout the train with no doors between carriages?

 

[Intermodal]

Presumably it would already be someone known to be ill. Surely the person would be detained under a specific thing they've just done - you cannot detain people for simply being mentally ill - they have to be a threat to themselves ir other people

The person does not need to be previously known to be mentally ill, they simply need to present as mentally ill to a police officer at the time of detention. And yes - of course there has to be a "harm to self" or "harm to others" angle but anyone "presenting to a police officer as mentally ill" is very likely to satisfy that condition automatically - as otherwise it's unlikely they would "present" as mentally ill.

 

[Intermodal]

What class of train was this? If it was a class 700, and they had poured petrol over themselves and set it alight, how would you prevent a fire and smoke spreading throughout the train with no doors between carriages?

I know class 158s have metal shutter (roll style) fire doors inbetween coaches that are invisible to the customer unless used by the guard. Perhaps the class 700 has a similar setup? Equally some units have no fire protection in this area - but it seems to me unlikely on a new unit.

 

[FGW_DID]

Presumably it would already be someone known to be ill.

No, it’s as Intermodal has stated at post #4

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/136

 

[jon0844]

What class of train was this? If it was a class 700, and they had poured petrol over themselves and set it alight, how would you prevent a fire and smoke spreading throughout the train with no doors between carriages?

9J94 Horsham to London Bridge.

 

[Surreytraveller]

9J94 Horsham to London Bridge.

At least it wasn't going through the core to spread the disruption to Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and whatever other counties Thameslink goes to!

 

[KingJ]

What class of train was this? If it was a class 700, and they had poured petrol over themselves and set it alight, how would you prevent a fire and smoke spreading throughout the train with no doors between carriages?

There is quite a lack of flammable material onboard the 700s. Not to say there is none at all, but it would be difficult for fire to spread with what there is.

 

[DaveN]

Yes... It meant that there were no trains from Flitwick to Bedford from 09:41 to 11:57...

 

[Surreytraveller]

There is quite a lack of flammable material onboard the 700s. Not to say there is none at all, but it would be difficult for fire to spread with what there is.

I realise that, but what I meant was if someone brought a flammable or fume/smoke producing product aboard. Such as petrol?

 

[AM9]

I realise that, but what I meant was if someone brought a flammable or fume/smoke producing product aboard. Such as petrol?

Unless they had the opportunity to walk the length of the train, spreading fuel as they go, there would be no more chance of a fire spreading beyond the immediate vicinity of the person concerned. The Desiro City design is well up to modern fire safety standards.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Unless they had the opportunity to walk the length of the train, spreading fuel as they go, there would be no more chance of a fire spreading beyond the immediate vicinity of the person concerned. The Desiro City design is well up to modern fire safety standards.

Smoke and fumes? How would you stop those spreading?

 

[jon0844]

Smoke and fumes? How would you stop those spreading?

The train has special equipment to remove smoke. It's why the doors into first class are as they are.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The train has special equipment to remove smoke. It's why the doors into first class are as they are.

And it works even if the traction current is off?

 

[jon0844]

And it works even if the traction current is off?

I don't know, but I'd hope so - even if only for a limited time to facilitate a safe movement within the train or evacuation. There are safety screens too, but there is an obvious question of who activates them on a DOO train (depending on where the fire is).

 

[zn1]

ive been section 136'd for my own safety by police officers, im so glad they did too..god knows what i would have done..im forever grateful for being arrested for my own safety

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something not dissimilar to this happened on a LM Class 350/2 some time ago - someone committed suicide by dousing themselves in some kind of liquid fuel in the toilet. Sadly they did not survive, though the unit itself was repaired and is back in service as the damage was not severe.

 

[Monty]

What class of train was this? If it was a class 700, and they had poured petrol over themselves and set it alight, how would you prevent a fire and smoke spreading throughout the train with no doors between carriages?

The 700s and the Desiro City range of trains have a HVAC system which contains the smoke and prevents it from spreading while expelling the smoke in the affected coach. In layman's terms it creates an artificial vortex to stop the spread of smoke.

 

[Larry Trapp]

Something not dissimilar to this happened on a LM Class 350/2 some time ago - someone committed suicide by dousing themselves in some kind of liquid fuel in the toilet. Sadly they did not survive, though the unit itself was repaired and is back in service as the damage was not severe.

Yes I remember reading about it, it was 350232.

From:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_350#Accidents_and_Incidents

On 11 April 2011, a fire broke out in a toilet cubicle, following an explosion on unit 350 232 working the 16:25 from Northampton to London Euston as it approached Leighton Buzzard, resulting in the death of the female occupant of the toilet. Her death turned out to be suicide, as she carried a can of petrol into the toilet and locked the door. All other passengers and the train crew escaped unharmed.[25] Damage to the train was not serious and it was repaired at Wolverton railway works.

 

[DavyCrocket]

The 700s and the Desiro City range of trains have a HVAC system which contains the smoke and prevents it from spreading while expelling the smoke in the affected coach. In layman's terms it creates an artificial vortex to stop the spread of smoke.

Is that system only powered by traction current though? If it is powered by the batteries, for how long would it last (and do all the batteries work!)?

 

[DarloRich]

Surprised there isn't anything in the news about the incident this morning where a member of the public poured what was believed to be petrol on himself and a train (later found to be olive oil) with the power shut off and a train evacuation. Caused loads of disruption as you can imagine.

Hopefully he or she gets the helps they need to get better. Sadly that is only a hope these days.

Surely you'd have to be diagnosed with something to be detained under the Mental Health Act? A charge with some sort of public order offence should give them time to obtain such a diagnosis.

I think it is s.136 of the Mental Heath Act that allows an individual to be detained by the police on the grounds of mental health. I had to ask the police to intervene in a situation where that was required. They quoted the act but I wasn't really paying attention! I wasn't the subject of the arrest btw. I found a person in the street in obvious distress and it was all I could think to do to help them and stop them hurting themselves or another person. It wasn't nice but the police dealt with it really well.

The police are being called on to use this power more and more often due to cuts in mental health and social care. It is a great strain on their resources.

Presumably it would already be someone known to be ill. Surely the person would be detained under a specific thing they've just done - you cannot detain people for simply being mentally ill - they have to be a threat to themselves ir other people

nope - it could be you or me. It is often people in "mental health crisis" who are a risk to themselves or others that the police are required to deal with. Many of them are unknown to the authorities. They are taken away and assessed by a medical professional before being entered into the care system. it is the officers judgement that a person is a risk and is displaying a mental health problem that is the only assessment done at point of contact.

though the unit itself was repaired and is back in service as the damage was not severe.

the damage, while contained to the toilet, was fairly bad.

 

[Eccles1983]

Presumably it would already be someone known to be ill. Surely the person would be detained under a specific thing they've just done - you cannot detain people for simply being mentally ill - they have to be a threat to themselves ir other people

Not really.

The Mental Capacity Act covers this.

Basically if you lack capacity to act in your best interests you can be detained until you gain capacity, or someone does it for you.

It's to stop people falling between the gaps. S136 covers people in a public place. The MCA covers everywhere.

As long as the person who is detaining you is acting in your best interests at the time then they are covered.

Generally paramedics and police officers aren't trained to diagnose mental health conditions. They can only judge it as they see it. And if in any doubt - detain and let a professional expert decide.

 

[ijmad]

Why are so many in this thread jumping to the conclusion that walkthrough carriage designs are somehow less safe? Just another opportunity to criticise the 700s?

I am sure a whole lot of effort went in to ensuring they are, safety standards are far more rigorous than they used to be years ago, after all. Old carriages are practically tinderboxes. Not so much with newer stock - it seems like the 700s have practically no flammable materials in their design (I'm sure the seat covers are flame retardant), but there's no wood or carpet.

Perhaps being able to move up and down the train to get clear of the fire more than compensates for there not being doors between carriages? If smoke becomes a real issue through the whole length of the train, surely passengers can open the doors or smash the windows using the emergency hammers? Being able to move to a door that is not engulfed in smoke would be a real advantage in that situation.

 

[jon0844]

There are lots of safety features but I understand that many may not realise what they are.

 

[ComUtoR]

surely passengers can open the doors or smash the windows using the emergency hammers?

Where are the emergency hammers located please ?

 

[ijmad]

Where are the emergency hammers located please ?

Assumed there were some. But if not, the doors are nice and wide, it's not like you're far away from a door wherever you are.