Increase in Graffiti on the network

[Daniel740]

I was an active ‘Vandal’ for 15 years strictly targeting rolling stock. Very avid railfan too quite friendly with all the local boys out filming for YouTube.

Contrary to popular belief it’s not really young people doing it as I didn’t really get busy until I had a good car and my financial situation was strong enough where I could sit in a bush from 11pm to 5am waiting for security to leave on a Wednesday night and not have it affect my work situation.

And it wasn’t really about the kudos of having it run in traffic the next day although that’s nice, we got so used to it being cleaned here that we found other motivations such as the adventure and exploration. It was almost like a puzzle that took a lot of work to solve, figuring out times, routines, side stepping security measures.

It’s funny listening to how a lot of folk talk about us. I’m just a regular guy, decent job, walk my dogs on the moors, good car, stock investments, meals out with the Mrs, help old people with their shopping etc, no tracksuits or benefits here and all those around me were no different. We just held on to a very specific form of expression and adventure we got addicted to as teenagers.

No excuse, why couldn’t you have done your ‘exploration and adventure’ without tagging up trains?

 

[Donny_m]

We stuck to what we were good at!

No excuse, why couldn’t you have done your ‘exploration and adventure’ without tagging up trains?

 

[XAM2175]

I was going to upload the photos but thought better of it as didn't want to promote the graffiti.

Another forum of which I'm a member has a general rule prohibiting the posting of pictures of vandalism (except in a few specific circumstances) for exactly that reason.

I feel that Toc's should be made to take the train straight out of service to be cleaned and to suffer any financial loss.

There are operators abroad who have, or had, such policies and they're almost always effective when kept up. Unfortunately given that they involve disrupting the service they're also the kind of policy that gets cut back or retracted completely when the reliability numbers take a dive.

 

[Donny_m]

I believe when I was active Vienna subway had a policy of never ever running the graffiti on trains but it was painted day in day out, same for many other train systems around Europe and the world. As mentioned in my post, it wasn’t really to do with the graffiti being seen by others. Once you had your photo you didn’t care what happened to it or how quickly it was cleaned off.

Another forum of which I'm a member has a general rule prohibiting the posting of pictures of vandalism (except in a few specific circumstances) for exactly that reason.


There are operators abroad who have, or had, such policies and they're almost always effective when kept up. Unfortunately given that they involve disrupting the service they're also the kind of policy that gets cut back or retracted completely when the reliability numbers take a dive.

 

[furnessvale]

It’s funny listening to how a lot of folk talk about us. I’m just a regular guy, decent job, walk my dogs on the moors, good car, stock investments, meals out with the Mrs, help old people with their shopping etc, no tracksuits or benefits here and all those around me were no different. We just held on to a very specific form of expression and adventure we got addicted to as teenagers.

For all your trappings you were just a common criminal. As a BTP officer I managed to get prison sentences on a number of "regular guys" who committed damage numbered in £100s of thousands, some on locos and rolling stock that was brand new. Sadly the squad I ran was so successful that the problem was eliminated in my area and the squad was disbanded. Needless to say the problem is now back with a vengence.

 

[Donny_m]

The difficulty was the vast culture that came along with it unlike other ‘common crimes’, the comradery and excitiment was often significantly stronger than any worry about a stint at her majesty’s pleasure, and much of the commissioned work that came along with it by big business could pay off a 4 figure fine in a heartbeat.

6 figure sums would be spent investigating crimes worth £100‘s, similar amounts in locking people up, the strategy was never value for money for the tax payer.

It was never the 6am door knocks or the hefty sentences that eventually put an end to my career, it rarely does especially with the most dedicated, it was simply growing up and getting on with life and finding other things to do. BTP were just part of the game and to be honest it wouldn’t have been the same without an opposing team.

For all your trappings you were just a common criminal. As a BTP officer I managed to get prison sentences on a number of "regular guys" who committed damage numbered in £100s of thousands, some on locos and rolling stock that was brand new. Sadly the squad I ran was so successful that the problem was eliminated in my area and the squad was disbanded. Needless to say the problem is now back with a vengence.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I do love how this forum reacts whenever someone comes along with a different perspective, everyone is willing to hear an alternative take to help them better understand the motivation behind the issue. Truly a breath of fresh air. [/sarcasm]

Yes, graffiti is a bit of a scourge on the network. Yes, it costs time and money to remove... but it isn't murder. Someone on another thread suggested a decidedly draconian punishment for vandals- one which would breach human rights legislation in most European countries. Get a grip.

 

[ctrh136]

I think it's been a little worse recently but I remember a couple of years ago when a lot of SE's trains suffered from graffiti.
Saying that, 377 157 was covered somewhat when noticed this evening on a VIC-EGR service

 

[Bevan Price]

I was an active ‘Vandal’ for 15 years strictly targeting rolling stock. Very avid railfan too quite friendly with all the local boys out filming for YouTube.

Contrary to popular belief it’s not really young people doing it as I didn’t really get busy until I had a good car and my financial situation was strong enough where I could sit in a bush from 11pm to 5am waiting for security to leave on a Wednesday night and not have it affect my work situation.

And it wasn’t really about the kudos of having it run in traffic the next day although that’s nice, we got so used to it being cleaned here that we found other motivations such as the adventure and exploration. It was almost like a puzzle that took a lot of work to solve, figuring out times, routines, side stepping security measures.

It’s funny listening to how a lot of folk talk about us. I’m just a regular guy, decent job, walk my dogs on the moors, good car, stock investments, meals out with the Mrs, help old people with their shopping etc, no tracksuits or benefits here and all those around me were no different. We just held on to a very specific form of expression and adventure we got addicted to as teenagers.

So - you would be quite happy to let somebody cover your house & car with graffiti ???

 

[Donny_m]

The classic, tired analogy that’s regurgitated time and time again. Would be great if some sort of thinktank could come up with a new one.

If I was temporarily in charge of 4000 government subsidised, revenue earning cars wrapped in vinyl I would imagine the odd bit off graffiti would be amusing.

So - you would be quite happy to let somebody cover your house & car with graffiti ???

 

[Daniel740]

The classic, tired analogy that’s regurgitated time and time again. Would be great if some sort of thinktank could come up with a new one.

It may be a tired analogy, but you haven’t answered the question. If someone tagged your house and car, would you be happy about it?

 

[Puppetfinger]

Whilst I really don't like graffiti at all, and do not condone it, at the same time I feel Donny_m deserves some credit for posting on this forum and being open and honest about what he did and why, if nothing else it gives an insight, and make of it what you wish as to what some people's motivations for doing it are.

 

[Spandau]

That's what the graffiti artists want

i am sorry but they are not artists - they are vandals who cause criminal damage and have no place in a civilised society.

 

[dakta]

It may be a tired analogy...

It probably gets a let of repetition because getting a straight answer is actually quite relevant IMO - I'm going to guess the critique of the analogy is because it's equally inconvenient to address.

I would personally expect anyone having their possessions (personal or business) 'tagged' or otherwise defaced would be quite narked for a few obvious reasons - the cost of repair, impact on appearance, reduction of value the list goes on and it's all well within the realms of common understanding. We don't need to query the fact that people who carry out these activities cause harm to others as it's so self explanatory - but people still do this for their own end-game whatever that happens to be.

I'm sat here with a beer, feel free to change my mind about why it might be defensible activity, but can we start by answering the question - it might be tired but it's pertinent. I don't mind rephrasing it - something like 'at what stage does painting on someone elses property become acceptable for the everyday guy' will equally do for me.

This might be one of those cases where hearing the opposite opinion is important - I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and no matter how much fun i could extract out of paining trains and other surfaces, i'd be quite narked if it happened to me. I can't reconcile the conflict

 

[47271]

Last night I posted a left field theory (I thought) that those who deface trains with graffiti are closet enthusiasts, but equally I said that we'd never find out if any of them were members of this forum. Half an hour later one popped up and confirmed, in a very considered and articulate way, that he's both.

So I think that as well as legal sanction, which absolutely needs to be handed out, these people need close psychiatric examination when they're caught. There's something weird and repressed going on here beyond mindless vandalism. If we understood better why it particularly happens on the railway then there might be a better chance of preventing it.

 

[thenorthern]

Rail companies in recent years have got very good at removing graffiti. A couple of years ago I was at Longport and someone had drawn several swastikas, given the Swastika's widely accepted association with Nazism and racism I reported it to East Midlands Trains and sure enough it was removed within 24 hours. I would assume that because of Covid graffiti removal isn't seen as a high priority at the moment which may explain the rise.

Generally graffiti levels are low in the UK. The comparison between the approaches to St. Pancras and Gare Du Nord is stark.

This is true, I remember visiting the Palais de Chaillot in Paris and there was a lot of visible graffiti even though it's a major tourist attraction.

 

[Mugby]

Last Saturday, I wrote in another thread that I had seen a 5-car EMR Meridian with the two First Class carriages largely covered in graffiti along the entire length of the sides.

Today I travelled on an EMR 156 with similar graffiti on both cars. The tag in both cases appears to be 'SMT'.

It suggests the perpetrator is active in the Derby or Nottingham area, Etches Park or perhaps Eastcroft.
Has anyone else seen any more similar instances?

 

[Chriso]

Last Saturday, I wrote in another thread that I had seen a 5-car EMR Meridian with the two First Class carriages largely covered in graffiti along the entire length of the sides.

Today I travelled on an EMR 156 with similar graffiti on both cars. The tag in both cases appears to be 'SMT'.

It suggests the perpetrator is active in the Derby or Nottingham area, Etches Park or perhaps Eastcroft.
Has anyone else seen any more similar instances?

I believe SMT are a nationwide graffiti gang. If you google them many of their members have previously been convicted

 

[HarryL]

I know parking a train up in sidings is common practice all over the world and is acceptable, but I do feel if it's unguarded enough that somebody can "decorate" a whole train without being stopped then there's something wrong. What's stopping somebody from going up to train, opening up the panels along the bottom and causing damage to the mechanics that would cause the train to be dangerous in service, it would take less time to do that and be less visible to somebody inspecting in the morning.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Last Saturday, I wrote in another thread that I had seen a 5-car EMR Meridian with the two First Class carriages largely covered in graffiti along the entire length of the sides.

Today I travelled on an EMR 156 with similar graffiti on both cars. The tag in both cases appears to be 'SMT'.

It suggests the perpetrator is active in the Derby or Nottingham area, Etches Park or perhaps Eastcroft.
Has anyone else seen any more similar instances?

Yes, definitely seen SMT tags on EMR carriages before but never on any other train company carriages. I already thought the same as you about the areas where the offenders are active.

SMT crew got caught some years ago for nationwide train damage from what I've read online.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I normally if I spot something tweet the relevant TOC with a picture or at minimum a carriage number, they are normally pretty quick at dealing with faults they don't generally like the bad press of repeated reports or photos. The question is whilst graffiti as a whole is unsightly, no doubt at all.

What do you consider acceptable to be sent out whilst graffitied?

A couple of tags is ok and to be honest it doesn't bother me hugely, where as an entire side covered by one entire tag, where the buttons and windows are covered in my opinion should result in a removal from service until cleaned!

 

[jamesst]

At my toc unless its offensive or covering the windows/doors the unit will be sent out anyway.

 

[dakta]

" Last night I posted a left field theory (I thought) that those who deface trains with graffiti are closet enthusiasts, but equally I said that we'd never find out if any of them were members of this forum. Half an hour later one popped up and confirmed, in a very considered and articulate way, that he's both. "

I was interested if one would attempt to answer the little piece on 'what would you feel if what you did to others property happened to yours'. Alas, despite the acknowledgement, enthusiasm appeared in short supply for for being open, articulate and considered about responding to that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So - you would be quite happy to let somebody cover your house & car with graffiti ???

Thank you for your most astute observation which exactly tallies with mine.

 

[Ayrshire Roy]

If we understood better why it particularly happens on the railway then there might be a better chance of preventing it.

Graffiti is a massive worldwide subculture and although illegal its roots are very well documented.
In a nut shell it started with the hobos in America leaving there name or nickname on wagons they had rode on or places they had camped.
Move on a few years to New York and Taki183 is often credited with starting modern graffiti.
He would write his tag on subway cars and people would notice, they then started to write their tags too.
People would then come up with their own writing styles which developed into full car pieces.
Back then it was people who wanted to get noticed and get fame round the city by tagging as many lines as they could.
People from other cities and countries saw this and wanted to do it too.
For a lot of writers it still is about their tag being seen by as many people as possible, hence trains that go town to town instead of a wall somewhere hidden.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

" Last night I posted a left field theory (I thought) that those who deface trains with graffiti are closet enthusiasts, but equally I said that we'd never find out if any of them were members of this forum. Half an hour later one popped up and confirmed, in a very considered and articulate way, that he's both. "

I was interested if one would attempt to answer the little piece on 'what would you feel if what you did to others property happened to yours'. Alas, despite the acknowledgement, enthusiasm appeared in short supply for for being open, articulate and considered about responding to that.

Perhaps if the individual in question hadn't been ordered to bend the knee and publically self-flaggelate by the more self-righteous among us, such a take may have been forthcoming?

 

[dakta]

" Perhaps if the individual in question hadn't been ordered to bend the knee and publically self-flaggelate "

drivel. for a few reasons (not including the somewhat relevent fact that the above never actually happened):

He was quite happy announcing his activities up to the point someone asked a genuine non-pointed question about how he'd feel about it happening to themselves.

The question posted, is and was 110% reasonable. Out of all the questions you could expect to be on the receiving end of announcing that you vandalism trains on a forum - what he got was quite gentle.

Re being self righteous, I don't really see what that's all about, it's not like he has been asked to beat himself up - and quite frankly it's very hard not to look a bit self righteous when you don't get involved in criminal activity whilst having an opinion about people who do. If criticising criminals is self righteous, I think most of us are guilty....

Let's look at it a different way - If there was a reasonable answer to the reasonable question posted, would the provision of said answer fall into the remit of self-flagellation to provide such answer?

Hardly. Any self flaggelation would come from a poor answer that was not reasonable and did not explain the activity.

so I have to say my question kind of stands.

 

[Egg Centric]

I was an active ‘Vandal’ for 15 years strictly targeting rolling stock. Very avid railfan too quite friendly with all the local boys out filming for YouTube.

Contrary to popular belief it’s not really young people doing it as I didn’t really get busy until I had a good car and my financial situation was strong enough where I could sit in a bush from 11pm to 5am waiting for security to leave on a Wednesday night and not have it affect my work situation.

And it wasn’t really about the kudos of having it run in traffic the next day although that’s nice, we got so used to it being cleaned here that we found other motivations such as the adventure and exploration. It was almost like a puzzle that took a lot of work to solve, figuring out times, routines, side stepping security measures.

It’s funny listening to how a lot of folk talk about us. I’m just a regular guy, decent job, walk my dogs on the moors, good car, stock investments, meals out with the Mrs, help old people with their shopping etc, no tracksuits or benefits here and all those around me were no different. We just held on to a very specific form of expression and adventure we got addicted to as teenagers.

I can understand in an abstract sense. Have you ever looked into wikipedia vandalism in your old age?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I'm puzzled that rail vehicles are often targeted by graffiti vandals, but never road trucks or buses. Do the culprits have an anti-rail bias? And why are aggregates and coal wagons attacked, but never intermodal flats or containers?

I recently travelled by rail across North Korea and saw no graffiti, but on a similar trip in the United States nearly every rail-car seemed to have been attacked. Is graffiti part of the price we pay to live in a capitalist democracy?

 

[Daniel740]

I'm puzzled that rail vehicles are often targeted by graffiti vandals, but never road trucks or buses. Do the culprits have an anti-rail bias? And why are aggregates and coal wagons attacked, but never intermodal flats or containers?

I recently travelled by rail across North Korea and saw no graffiti, but on a similar trip in the United States nearly every rail-car seemed to have been attacked. Is graffiti part of the price we pay to live in a capitalist democracy?

If someone was caught graffitiing in North Korea, them and their entire family would be sent to the gulag...