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Intercity 125 Acceleration (50-90 MPH)

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Footplate1

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After driving many of these trains over the years it got me thinking the other day whilst driving my F10 BMW M5, how would the 125's 50-90mph acceleration times compare?

Once on boost the 125 piles on the speed id say the 125 would match an F10 M5 (50-90mph)
 
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Fincra5

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After driving many of these trains over the years it got me thinking the other day whilst driving my F10 BMW M5, how would the 125's 50-90mph acceleration times compare?

Once on boost the 125 piles on the speed id say the 125 would match an F10 M5 (50-90mph)

I reckon its nowhere near tbh!
 

Murph

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After driving many of these trains over the years it got me thinking the other day whilst driving my F10 BMW M5, how would the 125's 50-90mph acceleration times compare?

Once on boost the 125 piles on the speed id say the 125 would match an F10 M5 (50-90mph)

I imagine that any M5 should beat it my quite a margin. The power to weight ratios of each should be a fairly accurate measure of acceleration at higher speeds (v-squared starts to dominate, so power output is a dominant factor in acceleration). IC125 set is approx. 3500 bhp (at rail), 43s are around 70t each, and you should be able to find the weights of the trailers easily enough. A F10 M5 is around 250 bhp per tonne, where a pair of 43s (without trailers) is only 25 bhp per tonne.
 

Bald Rick

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My first car (Fiat Uno) would have been comfortably quicker in that speed range than an HST.
 

Footplate1

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I imagine that any M5 should beat it my quite a margin. The power to weight ratios of each should be a fairly accurate measure of acceleration at higher speeds (v-squared starts to dominate, so power output is a dominant factor in acceleration). IC125 set is approx. 3500 bhp (at rail), 43s are around 70t each, and you should be able to find the weights of the trailers easily enough. A F10 M5 is around 250 bhp per tonne, where a pair of 43s (without trailers) is only 25 bhp per tonne.

When you put it like that the 43 wouldn't stand a chance, sometimes when it hits full boost it does feel fast even for a 40 year old train, you notice the difference in something like a 150 or 143.
 

Murph

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One other thing to consider without getting all technical about it. Full throttle in a M5 at 50 mph is likely to empty a cup of coffee into your lap. Notch 5 in a HST on a decent bit of straight track should not be spilling coffee.
 

Footplate1

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Train drivers are on decent money nowadays if you've got your hands on one of those.

70k per year with over time. An F10 M5 can now be had for £30k.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My HST Guards Manual says that 0-125 is achieved in approximately 14 miles!

That's on low boost though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My first car (Fiat Uno) would have been comfortably quicker in that speed range than an HST.

If it was an uno turbo it would have thrown a rod out shortly after:D
 

Cowley

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I reckon my Mercedes Sprinter 313 could do your 125 in any way up to 105mph and I'm in Devon so you're not allowed to go much faster than that anyway.
I'll be on the hard shoulder of the M5 by Tiverton Parkway southbound at midnight Saturday night and we'll have us a little race.
I've got all my decorating, gear in the back too so don't give me any excuses about heavy passengers etc.
Whadya say?
Or are you chicken?
 
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superalbs

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Allow me to demonstrate.

I'm using EMT powercars with VP185s - your mileage may vary depending on your engine.

I'm not sure Train Simulator is a very accurate resource for phsyics considering that if you derail in a tunnel, you get blasted into the sky.

The Class 450 takes ages to stop in the game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ZpNyt9meE), which it certainly didn't do when I rode one in real life, yesterday.
 

DasLunatic

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I'm not sure Train Simulator is a very accurate resource for phsyics considering that if you derail in a tunnel, you get blasted into the sky.

The Class 450 takes ages to stop in the game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ZpNyt9meE), which it certainly didn't do when I rode one in real life, yesterday.

*ahem* AP soundpack. Granted, it's far from perfect, but it's a damn site better than the original train.
 

notadriver

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Any car on the road to-day will out accelerate any train on the line.


Are you sure about that ? Let's take something like a small family car with about 80 bhp. At speeds above 50 mph a Javelin will have it for breakfast :p


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RobShipway

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Are you sure about that ? Let's take something like a small family car with about 80 bhp. At speeds above 50 mph a Javelin will have it for breakfast :p


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I believe that it depends on the distance being travelled by the car and the class 395 train.

If the distance is a mile, that both the train and car are travelling then yes the car will be quicker as it is lighter than the class 395. However, distances greater than a mile then the class 395 would be quicker once it has got it's speed up.
 

notadriver

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I believe that it depends on the distance being travelled by the car and the class 395 train.



If the distance is a mile, that both the train and car are travelling then yes the car will be quicker as it is lighter than the class 395. However, distances greater than a mile then the class 395 would be quicker once it has got it's speed up.


Our second car is similar to the one described. It's a city car with a 1.2 petrol engine. Above 50 mph it really is slow to accelerate.


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RobShipway

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Our second car is similar to the one described. It's a city car with a 1.2 petrol engine. Above 50 mph it really is slow to accelerate.


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Well, my Honda Civic with it's 1.8 VTEC engine is quite quick to accelerate and as I have stated possibly would be quicker than a class 395 for about a mile, if I am lucky before being passed by a class 395.
 

notadriver

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Well I did say a small family car with an engine output of roughly 80 bhp. Your car has 140 bhp - hardly the same.


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Murph

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Class 395: 16x280 = 4480 bhp, 265 tonnes (figures from Wikipedia). 16.9 bhp per tonne.
80 bhp small car: approx 1.5 tonnes. approx. 50 bhp per tonne.

The low power small car will be geared for not much more than 100 mph, so the train with its much lower nominal power to weight ratio is likely to start to out-accelerate the car as the car gets close to its Vmax. The car (assuming mechanical transmission) has to deal with its power being on something a bit like a bell curve, whereas the train's electric traction motors will have a much more constant power delivery (particularly with a good design of modern traction control gear).
 

notadriver

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It's not just about power to weight ratio. A Eurostar has about 22 / hp to the ton and can do 186 mph. Even the 1.8 VTEC Honda Civic with perhaps 100 bhp to the ton couldn't get near that speed.


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Pugland53

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After driving many of these trains over the years it got me thinking the other day whilst driving my F10 BMW M5, how would the 125's 50-90mph acceleration times compare?

Once on boost the 125 piles on the speed id say the 125 would match an F10 M5 (50-90mph)



I'm sorry, but anyone who has been in an M5 will know that the acceleration times are not even comparable. M5's can do 0-100mph in around 8.5 seconds, the 125 takes minutes. Are you sure your M5 isn't a 520d with an M5 badge?
 

Murph

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It's not just about power to weight ratio. A Eurostar has about 22 / hp to the ton and can do 186 mph. Even the 1.8 VTEC Honda Civic with perhaps 100 bhp to the ton couldn't get near that speed.

Once the speed is high enough that the v-squared component of kinetic energy dominates, the power to weight ratio is almost everything, if the power can actually be delivered (it can't be delivered past a certain speed in the case of the car). The acceleration is strictly limited by the rate of energy gain divided by the mass (i.e. the power to weight ratio). The Civic simply isn't geared to deliver its peak power at speeds above 100 mph. The electric traction package on the train should be delivering close to max power all the way up to designed Vmax.

v-squared is pretty much the part of physics which causes the dramatic increase in required traction power needed as you go to higher and higher speeds (e.g. compare 75 mph, 100 mph, 125 mph, and 140 mph trains). Aerodynamics obviously does also play a significant part at higher speeds (and drag is also based on v-squared), so some of the power is lost to drag while the remainder goes to increasing kinetic energy.

E.g. for ECML passenger expresses, which should be vaguely comparable in overall weight over the years (and just going to engine spec rather than at rail, for simplicity):
  • Deltic (100mph): 3300 hp
  • HST (125mph): 4500 hp
  • Electra (140mph): 6480 hp
 
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Footplate1

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I'm sorry, but anyone who has been in an M5 will know that the acceleration times are not even comparable. M5's can do 0-100mph in around 8.5 seconds, the 125 takes minutes. Are you sure your M5 isn't a 520d with an M5 badge?

No last time I checked it still had the 4.4 litre twin turbo V8 engine under the bonnet producing 552bhp, not the 181bhp oil burner :D
 

RobShipway

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I'm sorry, but anyone who has been in an M5 will know that the acceleration times are not even comparable. M5's can do 0-100mph in around 8.5 seconds, the 125 takes minutes. Are you sure your M5 isn't a 520d with an M5 badge?

Thank you for making my earlier point, but as I stated previously the longer the distance that the M5 and the 125 are racing the more the 125 will gain speed, plus momentum to pass the M5.
 

Footplate1

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Thank you for making my earlier point, but as I stated previously the longer the distance that the M5 and the 125 are racing the more the 125 will gain speed, plus momentum to pass the M5.

There is no way a 125 would ever gain or pass an M5, the M5 is a 200+mph car and believe me accelerates hard right up to that speed.
 

Kite159

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There is no way a 125 would ever gain or pass an M5, the M5 is a 200+mph car and believe me accelerates hard right up to that speed.

Quite easy, the 125 will fly by when the M5 is stuck in traffic doing the legal speed limit of 70 mph. But doh I forgot speed limits don't apply to BMW drivers ;)
 

Pugland53

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Thank you for making my earlier point, but as I stated previously the longer the distance that the M5 and the 125 are racing the more the 125 will gain speed, plus momentum to pass the M5.



Utter nonsense. Let me help you out with some actual experience. I drive 125's every day on the GWML. I have also driven an M5 extensively (16000 miles). They do not compare!!!!
 

DY444

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This thread is bizarre.

Going flat out, 0 to 125 mph for an unmodified F10 is about 14s and 50 to 90 mph is about 4s.

I'd have thought that an HST driver who happened to be an F10 owner would know that it's not even close.
 
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