Interesting Season ticket question

[yorkie]

Found on uk.railway..

I need to make the daily commute from Gidea Park in London to London
and am just trying to work out what the best ticket to by is.

I've taken a look at the National Routeing Guide and I think I might
be best off getting a Annual return to London Terminals from Emerson
Park?

My logic behind this is as follows:

The Routing for Emerson Park to London seems to allow either Romford
or Barking.
Gidea Park and Romford are grouped together in a routing group, so I
am allowed to travel London liverpool street to Emerson park - but
actually travelling to Gidea Park? Technically I think this may be
classed as "breaking my journey"?

The only way to get from Emerson Park to London via Barking is to go
via Upminster.
This is a handy alternative for me if the NAEA is up the spout as I
can walk to Emerson Park (further walk for me than Gidea Park) and hop
on the train to Upminster and then into Fenchurch street.

Does this seem like a fair assessment?

Also would this technically allow me to travel via underground
from: Gidea Park->Stratford (break journey) then Stratford->London
Liverpool street on the underground?

I can't really fault that. (apart from the Underground bit, that's not valid is it? unless there is some arrangement like there is for Finsbury Park to Moorgate on the Great Northern route, but I'm not aware of one)

 

[clagmonster]

Emerson Park is a related station to Barking, Romford and Southend.
The single ticket prices are as follows:
Emerson Park-London
SOS n/a
SDS £5
SVS n/a
CDC n/a

Barking-London
SDS £4, cheaper than Emerson Pk ticket, therefore appropriate routeing point.

Romford-London
SDS £5 same price asEmerson Pk ticket, therefore appropriate routeing point.

Southend Central-London
SDS £9.30, dearer than Emerson Pk ticket, therefore inappropriate routeing point.

Southend Victoria-London
SDS £13.50, dearer than Emerson Pk ticket, therefore inappropriate routeing point.

So the appropriate routeing points for Emmerson Park are Barking and Romford.

For Barking, the valid routes would be the shortest route to Barking, which would be changing at Upminster, then as follows:
Map TS
Barking-Stratford-Liverpool St
Barking-West Ham-Stratford-Liverpool St
Barking-West Ham-Limehouse-Fenchurch St
Barking-Walthamstow-Tottenham Hale-Gospel Oak-Highbury-Hackney-Stratford-Liverpool St
Barking-Walthamstow-Tottenham Hale-Gospel Oak-Highbury-Hackney-Stratford-West Ham-Limehouse-Fenchurch St

For Romford, the valid routes would be Emmerson Park-Romford, than as below on map EA.
Romford-Ilford-Stratford-Liverpool St.

The Romford group comprises of Gidea Park and Romford.

The rules regarding group stations are as follows:
"Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group."
The Romford group is on a permitted route for Emmerson Park-London, so that part is satisfied.
Both the stations the passenger would be doubling back through are in the group.
Neither London or Emmerson Park (the origin and destination stations) are members of the group.
The one part which I think is questionable is that the doubling back is for interchange purposes only. The passenger would be changing trains in the group, however I only see that it could be classed as doubling back for interchange puposes if the London to Gidea Park train does not stop at Romford. I can see that others would disagree with me there though.

As for utilising the Central line Stratford-Liverpool St, I think I have read somewhere, probably on here that this is valid.

One question that I have about this is that when travelling via Barking, Stratford-West Ham appears on a couple of permitted routes. Presumably this is from when the North Woolwich branch was open. Would the ticket now be accepted on the Jubilee line as a replacement service?

 

[yorkie]

It appears to be saying that the validity is extended (therefore it is valid) but the reason for it is for interchange purposes, and therefore it doesn't apply if going to a group station.

I don't think it is saying that it is only valid if you are interchanging. If it is meant to mean that then it is worded incredibly badly.

 

[clagmonster]

The reasoning for my interpretation is the phrase "This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only", which implies to me fairly strongly that it is only valid if you are interchanging. However, I don't see why you can't get off a train that hasn't stopped at Romford at Gidea Park and take a break of journey. I don't know whether there are any trains which stop at Gidea Park but not Romford.
In any case, by the very fact that we have both interpreted it differently says to me that it is badly worded. In my opinion, things like this should always be clear and unambiguous in order to avoid argument.

 

[John @ home]

The reasoning for my interpretation is the phrase "This extended availability is for interchange purposes only", which implies to me fairly strongly that it is only valid if you are interchanging.

I disagree because of the effect on other groups of stations. I cannot imagine that a Havant to Southampton Central season is not valid for a journey to or from Portsmouth & Southsea, or a Linlithgow to Kirkcaldy season not valid for a journey to or from Edinburgh. And I can see nothing in the rules to exclude journeys such as this. In each case validity relies on passing through one or more relatively minor group stations to the city centre group station. I therefore take the view that with a season ticket the passenger must be allowed to make journeys to and from any station within any group encountered on any route on which the ticket is valid.

the very fact that we have both interpreted it differently says to me that it is badly worded. In my opinion, things like this should always be clear and unambiguous in order to avoid argument.

Agreed. But we are discussing the fares and ticketing system for railways in Britain. Clear and unambiguous are not words which occur within that.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Season tickets are valid for break of journey at any station between the origin and destination stations (inclusive) on a valid route, as Gidea Park is not between London and Emerson Park, the only reason for the questioning its validity is based on 'interchange purposes', I therefore conclude that in this instance it is not valid to start, end or break the journey there.

Stratford to London is on the 'BR/LUL Inter-available' route list, but that is for singles and returns only, not season tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I am unsure that it should be interpreted that way. That's the way someone who believes rules should be interpreted against the customer thinks, but contract law I believe states that if the terms are unclear (or unfair) then it should be interpreted in favour of the customer, is that not the case here?

Are there any station facilities on the unpaid side of the barriers at Gidea Park? e.g. toilets, shops, etc? If so then you can exit the barriers to use those facilities, but in theory you cannot step outside the station if BOJ is not permitted (which I still think it should be).

Also the fare is identical from Gidea Park, so the OP is not getting a more expensive journey for a cheaper price (although that in no way determines validity).

 

[Parkview094]

Thanks Yorkie for directing me at this forum. To answer / comment on a few of the above posts..

Unfortunately, there are no trains from London to Gidea Park that don't stop at Romford.

The Romford->Emerson Park service only limited hours and offers only 1 or 2 trains an hour, whereas there are typically 6-8 trains an hour Romford to Gidea Park. Given Emerson Park station is only 1 miles from Gidea Park, it's probably quicker to walk from Gidea Park rather than wait for the train to Emerson Park (although I suspect that's just by-the-by)..

Either way - I suspect the "breaking journey" is a no go, since I've spotted the following fares from NEEA which would be farcical otherwise:

1) Brentwood->London Annual = £2140
2) Brentwood->Shenfield->London Annual = £2200
3) Shenfield->London (Annual) = £2480.

Presumably if one bought ticket 2) above, you wouldn't be able to get out at Shenfield (making ticket 3 redundant). (And hence the same argument for Gidea Park).

Also - there is actually some other hidden benefit from the original Emerson Park question since C2C who operate the Upminster->London Fenchurch Street don't sell season tickets for that journey. Instead, only travel cards are offered. Therefore, anyone living in Upminster only needing the train service would be better off buying this Emerson Park season ticket which is the best part of £500 cheaper than the annual travel card.

Final question however.. if I legitimately wanted to travel Gidea Park->Fenchurch Street every day, could I do this without buying a travelcard? This doesn't show up on any of the Routeing maps which suggest the only legitimate way to London from GP is to Liverpool Street (direct) or into St. Pancras (via Stratford)..

Cheers,

Mark
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are there any station facilities on the unpaid side of the barriers at Gidea Park? e.g. toilets, shops, etc? If so then you can exit the barriers to use those facilities, but in theory you cannot step outside the station if BOJ is not permitted (which I still think it should be).

No sadly not - not helped by the fact that there are no barriers at Gidea Park. Also, Emerson Park is an entirely unmanned single-platform no-barriers station.

 

[clagmonster]

The National Rail website states the follows on the Season Ticket conditions page:
"You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued."
That states to me that for the Brentwood-London route Shenfield season to be invalid for a break of journey at Shenfield, that would have to be printed on the ticket. For what it's worth, the National Express website has the exact same wording.
Gidea Park-London would not be valid via Upminster, see one of my previous posts or details as to why. However, I don't see a valid route into St Pancras, am I missing something?

 

[Parkview094]

That states to me that for the Brentwood-London route Shenfield season to be invalid for a break of journey at Shenfield, that would have to be printed on the ticket.
Gidea Park-London would not be valid via Upminster, see one of my previous posts or details as to why. However, I don't see a valid route into St Pancras, am I missing something?

That's interesting.. Does that mean the good people of Shenfield travelling into London should infact by a Brentwood(Via Shenfield) ticket instead?

With regards to the St Pancras route, this is probably my creative (wrong ) interpretation of the rules which went like this:

The valid route for Romford Groups->London is EA

EA includes the Stratford London Group Routing Point.

Valid routes for Stratford London Group->London includes HS (into St. Pancras).

 

[tony_mac]

That's interesting.. Does that mean the good people of Shenfield travelling into London should infact by a Brentwood(Via Shenfield) ticket instead?

I don't necessarily know about 'should', but they could!
There are many pricing anomolies, but that is a daft one when it actually includes the more expensive route! It is vaguely possible that a more expensive (but shorter) ticket could allow more routes, in some circumstances.

With regards to the St Pancras route, this is probably my creative (wrong ) interpretation of the rules which went like this:

The valid route for Romford Groups->London is EA

EA includes the Stratford London Group Routing Point.

Valid routes for Stratford London Group->London includes HS (into St. Pancras).

Yes, you're quite correct - this interpretation is wrong!
You can only use the maps listed for the route (EA), you can't jump off halfway and re-start your routeing.

 

[yorkie]

That's interesting.. Does that mean the good people of Shenfield travelling into London should infact by a Brentwood(Via Shenfield) ticket instead?

A Brentwood-London Route Shenfield season has identical validity IMO to Shenfield to London.

The price for a Brentwood-London Route Shenfield season (Std) is £211.20. Shenfield-London is £238.10.

How odd!

 

[John @ home]

With regards to the St Pancras route, this is probably my creative (wrong ) interpretation of the rules which went like this:

The valid route for Romford Groups->London is EA

EA includes the Stratford London Group Routing Point.

Valid routes for Stratford London Group->London includes HS (into St. Pancras).

It is indeed your creative interpretation of the rules. You have not used this rule:

STEP 7 - Identify the route to which the code(s) refers using the maps
Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey).
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf
Underlining is my emphasis.

Sorry,
John

 

[paul1609]

A Brentwood-London Route Shenfield season has identical validity IMO to Shenfield to London.

The price for a Brentwood-London Route Shenfield season (Std) is £211.20. Shenfield-London is £238.10.

How odd!

I think there are probably quite a few of these;

Littlehampton to Cosham weekly season ticket £51.20
Littlehampton to Portsmouth stations weekly (valid via Cosham) £35.90

 

[tony_mac]

The reasoning for my interpretation is the phrase "This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only",

If there was a full stop there, then I would agree, but it goes on to say
" and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."
which is, I think, meant to be clarification of what 'for interchange purposes only' actually means.

I think that the statement which says 'including doubling back' is less ambiguous - it doesn't say 'including doubling back for interchange purposes only'. I think it would reasonably mean that going to Gidea Park and then taking the train back to Romford is allowed.

And as season ticket conditions 29-37 (including 30, allowing break of journey) take precedence 'If there is any conflict or inconsistency' with other conditions, I would say that you can definitely break your journey as long as you are on a permitted route.

Or, at the very least, it's definitely not clear and unambigous that you can't break your journey there, so you are entitled to use the interpretation most favourable to the consumer (from the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations).

There is of course no guarantee that everyone else (particularly railway staff who can sometimes apply their own branch of logic ) will agree with my opinions.

 

[John @ home]

The Romford group comprises of Gidea Park and Romford.

I think I've just spotted what has happened here.

Up to, and including, the 1 April 2009 version of the National Routeing Guide the list of Group Stations was included in Section A of the NRG, How to use the NRG. This showed that Romford Group comprised Gidea Park and Romford.

The 2 July 2009 version of the National Routeing Guide separated the list of Group Stations from How to use the NRG but continued to show that Romford Group comprised Gidea Park and Romford.

The 7 August 2009 version of the National Routeing Guide deleted Romford Group from the list of Group Stations. The effect of this change is that Emerson Park - London Terminals is no longer valid via Gidea Park. The 7 August 2009 version of the list of Group Stations is the current version on the ATOC web site.

So the question has changed from whether Emerson Park - London Terminals is valid via Gidea Park to whether ATOC had the permission of the appropriate regulator (in this case, DfT) to alter the list of Group Stations to the detriment of a passenger.

John

 

[tony_mac]

The 7 August 2009 version of the National Routeing Guide deleted Romford Group from the list of Group Stations.

It is there at the moment, after YEOVIL GROUP.

 

[John @ home]

The 7 August 2009 version of the National Routeing Guide deleted Romford Group from the list of Group Stations.

It is there at the moment, after YEOVIL GROUP.

Many thanks for spotting that, tony_mac.

The 2 July 2009 list of Group Stations had 72 Groups which, helpfully, were printed in alphabetical order.

On 7 August 2009, this was replaced on the ATOC web site by a version also containing 72 Groups, but ordered London first, then 34 in alphabetical order from Birmingham to Yeovil, then 37 Groups in random order. This strange ordering caused me not to notice that Romford Group is still there! Sorry.

So, back to where we were - the Group Stations rule means that Emerson Park - Gidea Park - Ilford - Stratford London Group - Liverpool Street is a permitted route. For the reasons stated in previous posts, I believe that Gidea Park - Ilford - Stratford London Group - Liverpool Street is a permitted journey using a Emerson Park - London Terminals ticket.

John