Introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock

[hexagon789]

No - Air-con Mk2s first appeared on the fast Sheffields in October 1973, though I'm not sure of the exact marks.

1975 is the first time they appear in a Carriage Marshalling Book - 4 Sheffields each way, other workings being either PV Mk2 or Mk1.

 

[Harpo]

In the 90s Liverpool St - Norwich acquired (AKA got dumped with) the unique set of airline seated Mk2s (68xx??) which I think were formerly a Peterborough commuter set?

Within Anglia they were referred to as Mk2g (never an official designation) and one of each was added to the line’s 10 sets bringing a 7th vehicle type* into the formations.


*DBSO/TSO/TSO(airline)/TSO(powerlead)/Buffet/FO/BG

 

[hexagon789]

In the 90s Liverpool St - Norwich acquired (AKA got dumped with) the unique set of airline seated Mk2s (68xx??) which I think were formerly a Peterborough commuter set?

Within Anglia they were referred to as Mk2g (never an official designation) and one of each was added to the line’s 10 sets bringing a 7th vehicle type* into the formations.


*DBSO/TSO/TSO(airline)/TSO(powerlead)/Buffet/FO/BG

There were usually two of the high-density Mk2F TSOs in the GEML sets I believe, they seated 74 against 64 in the ordinary 2E/2F TSOs used.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Someone will have a photo of the handle. It was something like the internal door handle on aircraft with a big swing across, far larger so than the external handles.

Not a photo admittedly but hopefully does give an idea of what you described?

 

[Rescars]

Trains with large dining demand might have retained Kitchen Buffets (RKBs), primarily on the ECML and WCML.

On some WCML routes the RKBs were restricted to specific circuits only. As an example from the late 1970s, whilst quite a number of Manchester sets included RKBs, in the West Midlands only the set forming the 07.29 ex Wolverhampton was so equipped. This was due to the big demand for breakfast from First Class business passengers wanting to reach London just before 09.30. All the other West Midlands sets used RBRs.

 

[Magdalia]

What about the Midland Main Line? I would guess that the MML got Mark 2 aircons cascaded from the WR by the introduction of HSTs and from the WCML by the introduction of Mark 3s.

Summer 1975 for the first air-con vehicles, they were re-allocated from the WCML by introduction of the Mk3s.

Vehicles were mostly 2E, with some 2D BFK, FK and FOs.

Railway Observer June 1975 gives the first air conditioned train on the Midland Main Line as the up Master Cutler on 7 April 1975.

The formation is listed, all are MarkIIFs except MkIID FK M13610.

Further trains were air conditioned from the start of the summer 1975 timetable.

 

[Western Sunset]

The important factor is that Mark IIDs had wrap round end doors that were much wider and heavier than the doors on older rolling stock. This meant that they swung open much more quickly once the latch was released, whether from the inside or the outside.

Thought the wrap-round doors first appeared on the 2Bs.

 

[hexagon789]

Railway Observer June 1975 gives the first air conditioned train on the Midland Main Line as the up Master Cutler on 7 April 1975.

The formation is listed, all are MarkIIFs except MkIID FK M13610.

Further trains were air conditioned from the start of the summer 1975 timetable.

Interesting, presumably they simply used an existing WCML set. 2Es were definitely used later though, presumably because they were the earlier ones and the 2Fs were generally regarded as superior.

Thought the wrap-round doors first appeared on the 2Bs.

They did.

 

[AY1975]

When were Mark 2 aircons first used on Cross-Country services?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Not a photo admittedly but hopefully does give an idea of what you described?

Fascinating picture. I never knew they had a physical internal handle, initially. Thanks for finding and sharing that.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Fascinating picture. I never knew they had a physical internal handle, initially. Thanks for finding and sharing that.

Really does look very unusual dosen’t it and very much as the description from @Taunton I thought!

 

[Taunton]

Really does look very unusual doesn't it and very much as the description from @Taunton I thought!

I also seem to recall it being placarded for which way to open the door, and possibly a caution about when/when not to use it.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I also seem to recall it being placarded for which way to open the door, and possibly a caution about when/when not to use it.

Shame those that fell to their deaths obviously didn’t heed those warning notices!

 

[Taunton]

Shame those that fell to their deaths obviously didn’t heed those warning notices!

Possibly the warnings were a rushed response rather than initial design, and/or the children who fiddled with them were unable to read/absorb them yet ...

 

[hexagon789]

When were Mark 2 aircons first used on Cross-Country services?

I want to say about 1979, which is when certain Mk2D sets freed up by the HSTs were redeployed by the ER to other routes outside the ECML.

Certainly the Edinburgh/Plymouth became AC in 1979.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Possibly the warnings were a rushed response rather than initial design, and/or the children who fiddled with them were unable to read/absorb them yet ...

Yes, that’s fair comment I suppose.

 

[danielnez1]

I find it fascinating the Mk2s had so many variants with many Mk2Fs "sampling" Mk3 features. The wood veneer panelling of the original Mk2D and E interiors made them look dark and dated IMO, but they did scrub up well when refurbished with light panelling I know some Mk2D/Es were given Intercity Italic Swallow branding, were they internally refurbished to the same standard as the Mk2F with the IC red seat covers, cream paneling and checkmarks at the end of the carriage, or were the heavy refurbs done post privatisation?

 

[JonathanH]

I know some Mk2D/Es were given Intercity Italic Swallow branding, were they internally refurbished to the same standard as the Mk2F with the IC red seat covers, cream paneling and checkmarks at the end of the carriage, or were the heavy refurbs done post privatisation?

Prior to the post privatisation refurbs, when the Mark 2Es, then with CrossCountry, had a different interior to the Mark 2Fs. The InterCity refurbished Mark 2Es had a grey based moquette with red flecks rather than the 'dogger red' moquette fitted to Mark 2Fs and Mark 3s.

There is an explanation here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/british-rail-seat-moquette.264858/page-2#post-6708199

 

[Helvellyn]

I find it fascinating the Mk2s had so many variants with many Mk2Fs "sampling" Mk3 features. The wood veneer panelling of the original Mk2D and E interiors made them look dark and dated IMO, but they did scrub up well when refurbished with light panelling I know some Mk2D/Es were given Intercity Italic Swallow branding, were they internally refurbished to the same standard as the Mk2F with the IC red seat covers, cream paneling and checkmarks at the end of the carriage, or were the heavy refurbs done post privatisation?

The heavy refurbishments were done post privatisation. I think CrossCountry funded more of a heavy facelift of the 2D/2E TSOs and BSOs, which saw panelling revarnished (it made a surprising difference) and new rust/grey patterned seats with grey headrests and matching carpets.

36 Mk 2D FOs were refurbished when converted to TSOs (6200-6235) and gained 58 IC80 seats (as used in the APT). The seat covers and carpets were again rust/grey.

As ever there were a couple of exceptions - 2 (possibly 3) Mk 2E FOs were refurbished in a similar style to the Mk 2Fs and Mk 3s with the pink moquette. They retained original seats but all surfaces were covered in moquette. These were used on the Norwich route. I can't recall if the original wood veneer panels were replaced with the moquette (carpet?) wall coverings as used in the 2Fs and 3s as well.

I think 2 Mk 2D FOs and 1 FK were also refurbished for the VIP Charter fleet but retained the original wood panelling.

 

[danielnez1]

Thanks for the replies @JonathanH @Helvellyn

I actually remember seeing the grey seated Mk2(e)? coaches on TV as a kid in the late 90s:

 

[Taunton]

This is during the period when it is commonly stated BR were "starved of investment". In this time, starting in say 1967, they introduced air braked Mk2 stock, air con from the 1971 build, which within 10 years had completely taken over Inter City services. Carried on for the next 6 years or so and cascaded it all further with HSTs. Derby works were just churning them all out, at considerable cost.

I believe BR were the first European railway to change their volume vehicle production over to air con for all classes.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe BR were the first European railway to change their volume vehicle production over to air con for all classes.

I don't know about exactly that as you phrase it, but certainly the first to offer air-con on normal non-supplement express trains, and in Second Class.

 

[danielnez1]

Its a shame Air conditioning was not extended to the later Mk2 and Mk3 D/EMUs when new - though I imagine their open vestibule/saloon configurations and frequent stopping would have put a huge strain on the AC equipment of that era.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the replies @JonathanH @Helvellyn

I actually remember seeing the grey seated Mk2(e)? coaches on TV as a kid in the late 90s:

Opening sequences of that seems to feature an electrified midland main line.

 

[danielnez1]

Opening sequences of that seems to feature an electrified midland main line.

I know, so I always assumed it is set in an alternate reality where the MML was electrified at 25kV up to Sheffield in the 60s

 

[WesternLancer]

I know, so I always assumed it is set in an alternate reality where the MML was electrified at 25kV up to Sheffield in the 60s

You could be correct! It was nice to see a comfortable looking interior of an inter city train. That’s a thing of the past now. Even a mark 4 is less spacious than the seating depicted in the film.

It’s great sequence. Thanks for posting it.

 

[danielnez1]

You could be correct! It was nice to see a comfortable looking interior of an inter city train. That’s a thing of the past now. Even a mark 4 is less spacious than the seating depicted in the film.

It’s great sequence. Thanks for posting it.

IMHO in many ways the Mk2 is the unsung hero of the BR coach fleet. By the time the Mk2D came about, perhaps that should have been christened the Mk3 given the differences to the original Mk2, and the installation of AC (and AFIK pre-taped PA announcements).

On a side note: The Last Train is probably one of ITV's last "big budget" SciFi dramas. Granada (perhaps an easter egg is the MUFC bag - plus the post-apocalypse "Sheffield" station is Manchester Mayfield) seemed to blow most of the budget on the train crash and Sheffield scenes, so the rest of the season is not as visually impressive.

 

[WesternLancer]

IMHO in many ways the Mk2 is the unsung hero of the BR coach fleet. By the time the Mk2D came about, perhaps that should have been christened the Mk3 given the differences to the original Mk2, and the installation of AC (and AFIK pre-taped PA announcements).

On a side note: The Last Train is probably one of ITV's last "big budget" SciFi dramas. Granada (perhaps an easter egg is the MUFC bag - plus the post-apocalypse "Sheffield" station is Manchester Mayfield) seemed to blow most of the budget on the train crash and Sheffield scenes, so the rest of the season is not as visually impressive.

I was previously unaware of the film. Thanks for the comments and observations.

I do tend to agree about mk 2s. A nice carriage with a genuinely modern feeling that must have seemed like a step change from the mark 1 which to me feels like an evolution from pre war designs of carriage. Tho other observers with more knowledge might be able to comment on how considerable a change the mk 1 was at its introduction.

 

[danielnez1]

I was previously unaware of the film. Thanks for the comments and observations.

At the time Granada owned Yorkshire and Tyne Tees Television (and London Weekend Television), so they also get implicit references/location shots haha. Anyway that has nowt to do with the Mk2 so I will be good.

Actually, one Mk2 AC question I have is that I know different companies suppled the AC units for each generation of coach, does anyone know which ones were the more reliable ones, and were they interchangeable?

 

[hexagon789]

Actually, one Mk2 AC question I have is that I know different companies suppled the AC units for each generation of coach, does anyone know which ones were the more reliable ones, and were they interchangeable?

Stones and Temperature Ltd were the two types.

I'm not sure if they were interchangeable but a wide variety of vehicles had one or the other, sometimes whole types sometimes batches, sometimes one random standalone vehicles.

(I can put up a list of which had which if desired.)

I'm not sure whether one was more reliable that the other but on 2D & E the system worked in tandem with the preexisting Mk2 pressure ventilation system and electric heating. The 2Fs had a completely separate air-con circuit with no pressure ventilation system.

The air-con is generally considered to have worked better and been more reliable on the 2Fs.