Is closing slam-doors helpful for dispatch?

[FOH]

Many years ago in SWT land I observed the last passenger off a 442 try and try to close the door behind him. The guard came running down the platform probably hoping he’d make it before it was ripped off its runners!

 

[xotGD]

What I never understand is why people on the platform waiting to board just stand there watching when someone on the train is struggling to reach the handle and open the door. Just open the door for them!

 

[LowLevel]

As a dispatcher on the ECML I'm expected to tap each handle on the mk3 sets before giving the hand signal to the Guard to lock them. For this reason me and the second dispatcher start at opposite ends of the train and work to the centre. If a passenger were then to open one of the end doors again I would make the journey back to check it. One of the best things about "handle tapping" is that it removes any doubt in my mind that I have checked every single door on my half of the train because it feels unnatural to miss one out. So to answer the question my own way, I certainly don't mind doors being left open because I will be passing them anyways and at the same time closing them isn't going to make me automatically add you to the Christmas card list.

Even if you tap every handle you will find your dispatch is far faster if you don't have to swing the doors shut yourself. We used to have to try and meet some ridiculous dwell targets and every little helped. 2 or 3 seconds per door can make more than 30 extra seconds.

 

[pt_mad]

This is extremely important and relevant. The handle is linked to the door latch so it will spring up with as much force as you close the door with (handle dropped door not closed, handle horizontal, door closed [as a general rule]). Very easy in this case for passengers of all ages to cause themselves injuries by having their hand even just near the handle when closing the door.

Not if you push it hard and let the door close itself with a slam. No need to hold the handle when it engages. Just use it as a place to push the door. Anyway are we really debating how to shut a door haha.

 

[Mugby]

As far as I recall, the Mk.3s were the first slam doors which had handles that pivoted only at one end.

I think all previous stock had handles which pivoted in the centre, i.e. half the handle turned upwards, half turned downwards.

 

[attics26]

realise shut doors may be an advantage, but would rather doors left open, if I shut them I know they are shut, I hate slam door stock!

 

[swaldman]

What I never understand is why people on the platform waiting to board just stand there watching when someone on the train is struggling to reach the handle and open the door. Just open the door for them!

Why *do* the Mk 3 doors not have handles on the insides? (any more. I think they used to, years back?)
It's not as though anybody's going to open them accidentally, when they have central locking.

 

[pt_mad]

Why *do* the Mk 3 doors not have handles on the insides? (any more. I think they used to, years back?)
It's not as though anybody's going to open them accidentally, when they have central locking.

As forcing the handle down even with the central locking on can put the door ajar about a centimetre from flush. I believe it's called 'on the first catch',? As opposed to the second catch which means ajar to the point the central locking doesn't engage the door.

And if a train was in motion even with a door on this first catch, it'd still be a serious safety concern.

 

[Dai Corner]

Why *do* the Mk 3 doors not have handles on the insides? (any more. I think they used to, years back?)
It's not as though anybody's going to open them accidentally, when they have central locking.

I'm pretty sure they had handles inside when built too, but they didn't have central locking.

 

[LowLevel]

First catch is to do with the latch the handle is fitted to. It has 2 strike plates - one which engages when the door is fully closed and once which comes in when it's nearly completely open. It holds the door enough to stop it swinging open (potentially injuring people nearby)

As forcing the handle down even with the central locking on can put the door ajar about a centimetre from flush. I believe it's called 'on the first catch',? As opposed to the second catch which means ajar to the point the central locking doesn't engage the door.

And if a train was in motion even with a door on this first catch, it'd still be a serious safety concern.

but not enough to keep it shut potentially if it was leaned upon heavily. Nothing to do with the CDL.

 

[theironroad]

Yes ,close the door and close the drop down window. However make sure them door is firmly closed , not 'on the catch' as otherwise it'll save no time at all

 

[pt_mad]

but not enough to keep it shut potentially if it was leaned upon heavily. Nothing to do with the CDL.

?
The CDL stops the door from opening and means that if trying to force the door open, the most you can open it is on the first catch as i understand it?

If no CDL, forcing the handle would open the door. CDL engaged means it will go to the first catch if forced enough, but still won't open.

 

[Dhassell]

I always close it if I am walking past at unmanned stations. Or if a train is running late and I am walking up the platform. I also have a habit of when opening Slam doors to throw the window up as I alight. Also If I am normally last on I shut it harshly from the inside.

Never hold the handle when you close it, it'll have your wrist.

Yep, I know of a case where someone broke their wrist doing that!

 

[Crossover]

I don't often travel on slam door stock, but unless it has terminated, if I am last off I would generally shut it. I have been known to shut the train doors as well where people have left them open. Have been thanked for it before now. Interesting to read about the ECML operation, as I watched the despatcher going along tapping the door handles at Wakefield Westgate the other week (some of which I shut to try to help)

 

[E_Reeves]

I've noticed some guards who release the doors from the rear and walk halfway down the train shutting the doors as they go, then to lock the doors from the centre of the train. That must save quite a bit of time in the platform.

 

[Dhassell]

I don't often travel on slam door stock, but unless it has terminated, if I am last off I would generally shut it. I have been known to shut the train doors as well where people have left them open. Have been thanked for it before now. Interesting to read about the ECML operation, as I watched the despatcher going along tapping the door handles at Wakefield Westgate the other week (some of which I shut to try to help)

Same with GWR dispatchers as well tapping the handles.

 

[221129]

?
The CDL stops the door from opening and means that if trying to force the door open, the most you can open it is on the first catch as i understand it?

If no CDL, forcing the handle would open the door. CDL engaged means it will go to the first catch if forced enough, but still won't open.

The CDL will not stop the door opening if it is on the catch and is being leant on with enough force.. it's only a little bolt that drops down after all

 

[pt_mad]

The CDL will not stop the door opening if it is on the catch and is being leant on with enough force.. it's only a little bolt that drops down after all

But aren't there two catches? The main catch which is the one where can you can see the yellow strip. And the door can open very easily .And central locking won't touch it.

And the (second catch?), which is the catch it can go on if forced when the doors have been closed and central locking engaged. As in the doorsill jar open about a cm but the train would need to be stopped.

Please correct or provide more info if anyone knows?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The CDL will not stop the door opening if it is on the catch and is being leant on with enough force.. it's only a little bolt that drops down after all

That would make it not fit for purpose, as that is the whole reason it was installed - to stop people falling out.

 

[LowLevel]

That would make it not fit for purpose, as that is the whole reason it was installed - to stop people falling out.

CDL is a very rudimentary system and is far from fool proof - it requires the human error prone part of the operation in closing the door correctly to be effective. The lights would go out if the door had fallen off let alone not being shut correctly hence a manual check being required.

It was done on the cheap and the intention is that a properly closed door, on a coach supplied with power (and decent batteries!) and air will require a much more significant amount of force to open such that it could only be done intentionally, rather than say someone falling against a door and it popping open. The train can still move with the doors not shut correctly or indeed open should a door be missed (it has happened).

This is why first catch incidents are taken seriously.

 

[LowLevel]

But aren't there two catches? The main catch which is the one where can you can see the yellow strip. And the door can open very easily .And central locking won't touch it.

And the (second catch?), which is the catch it can go on if forced when the doors have been closed and central locking engaged. As in the doorsill jar open about a cm but the train would need to be stopped.

Please correct or provide more info if anyone knows?

No, the two catches aren't two stages of improper closing. When the first catch only is engaged then the door is not shut correctly and will move around, but will be retained to some degree by this smaller catch.

The second catch is when the door is fully closed correctly and both catches have been passed.

Forcing the door as mentioned will put it on to the first catch but retained more solidly by the CDL bolt.

 

[a_c_skinner]

As a dispatcher on the ECML I'm expected to tap each handle

Yes, when I was a regular on the East Coast platform staff checked every door, though I don't think GC did it when they were running Mk3s.

 

[pt_mad]

No, the two catches aren't two stages of improper closing. When the first catch only is engaged then the door is not shut correctly and will move around, but will be retained to some degree by this smaller catch.

The second catch is when the door is fully closed correctly and both catches have been passed.

Forcing the door as mentioned will put it on to the first catch but retained more solidly by the CDL bolt.

Ahh right makes a lot of sense thanks. I have seen a door forced (from inside) after a the train has started moving, and with total force. And it was only jarred about a cm. But the train had to be stopped as an emergency stop. It didn't visually open to the degree the yellow strip was fully visible.

Is this because the CDL bolt was down?

 

[Essexman]

I always shut mine if I'm last to use it and any others that I walk by. Station staff sometimes say thanks.
I did get told not to open the door on exiting from GWR Pullman last week as the host said it was their job and they'd get into trouble if someone saw them not doing it.

 

[Millisle]

Rather late to the party on this, but my excuse is that I was this week on my first slam door train for a couple of years and on the service concerned the first for twenty years or more.
This was a service overwhelmingly maintained by modern stock and chance rather than design led me to an exception, greatly adding nostalgia to my day out. I got behind the engine, as one did in those for me far off days.
I expected on the whole that most would know or work out how to get on, but was a little surprised that everyone I observed knew how to get off even the young people.

A number of points strike me in relation to closing of doors:
1 A surprisingly high compliance in closing of doors on the train I was on.
2 The guard (no platform despatch at any of six stations) came nowhere near the door I was beside at any station. I am sure she was observing from a distance.
3 I find the door handle touching routine described above surprising. My understanding has throughout over fifty years been that carriage door handles were designed to be failsafe as horizontal only if the door was secure on both catches. I can also say that by personal observation that I have found this to be true. In fact I recall reading years ago of a disciplinary matter described as despatch with handles not turned, rather than doors not secured.
4 The implication that in slam door heyday passengers all (when appropriate) slammed the doors is mistaken.

Speeding to Glasgow once about thirty years ago I was walking to the buffet and passed a door on first catch. A sharp yank and all was well.

Point 2 makes me desire to be unspecific on route.

 

[IainG81]

I think I'll miss the sight at Reading where the last door in coach A or H is the one that is left open. I think the new ones have automatic doors so that will be a thing of the past. Also being on the train and the person by the door can't quite manage it and a crowd gathers behind.

On the question must make the dispached job quicker if all the doors are closed once people have boarded. The station i work at most trains are 387's and all have automatic doors.

 

[Swanny200]

I still remember one time about 1992 at Gillingham, these schoolkids were on a Victoria service and everytime the dispatcher closed a door and went down to the other end of the train, one of these kids went and opened it, causing much hilarity for these kids but a delay of about 15 to 20 minutes.

 

[tsr]

Many years ago in SWT land I observed the last passenger off a 442 try and try to close the door behind him. The guard came running down the platform probably hoping he’d make it before it was ripped off its runners!

A 442 door would be more likely to rip your arm off than someone managing to rip it off its runners!