Is Crossrail too fast?

[stut]

Ah, the British approach to infrastructure. "Don't make it too good, people might use it..."

 

[telstarbox]

At the moment the Central line leaves passengers behind on the platforms in the peaks between Bond Street and Liverpool Street. It would have to lose a lot of passengers to Crossrail before it would become 'quiet'.

 

[trainplan1]

Relief of the Met main line and the H+C / Circle were also major factors in the evaluation of the original Crossrail. (then planned to cover both Aylesbury and Chesham !) - though frankly the costs of rebuilding the Met to then BR standards after a long period of decline and lack investment were very high - substandard clearances on the 4 track section in particular. I once walked during a possession from Rickmansworth to Harrow (on a s Sunday morning) and had all this pointed out in detail by one of the engineers.

Would still love that to happen from a personal point of view!
Just wish it'd gone ahead as per the 90's proposal...
I can think of a good number of sensible reasons why it'd be useful as well. Not enough to justify it though...

Sadly I think the costs and logistics of rebuilding Rickmansworth and Harrow for OLE would ruin any chances of that happening. If the rest of the route, in particular the 4 track section isn't in a viable enough state then that's probably it.

 

[NSEFAN]

Surely it would have been 3rd/4th rail as required up to Aylesbury? I have a vague memory of reading that such an electrification scheme was considered for the Chiltern line once modernisation was on the cards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Surely it would have been 3rd/4th rail as required up to Aylesbury? I have a vague memory of reading that such an electrification scheme was considered for the Chiltern line once modernisation was on the cards.

I can assure you we planned for 25kV ....Ricky station would have been relocated south - one of the biggest areas of protest was wiring the Chesham line. (amenity grounds)

 

[NSEFAN]

I can assure you we planned for 25kV ....Ricky station would have been relocated south - one of the biggest areas of protest was wiring the Chesham line. (amenity grounds)

Fascinating stuff! I assume Crossrail would have replaced the Metropolitan fast line, with the Met instead going only to Watford? Or would the Met have been effectively replaced by Crossrail beyond Harrow?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Fascinating stuff! I assume Crossrail would have replaced the Metropolitan fast line, with the Met instead going only to Watford? Or would the Met have been effectively replaced by Crossrail beyond Harrow?

The Fast Met would have been subsumed into Crossrail - leaving the Met to serve Watford and Uxbridge (probably at higher frequencies)

The base plan was 24 tph - 12 on each Chiltern and Reading branch - after extensive work this was reduced to 14 Reading line and 10 Met - 4 "fast" Aylesbury , - Harrow then all stations north of Ricky - 4 Amersham and 2 Chesham (Wembley Park , Harrow and all stations)

Reduced off peak of course - that would have been a very lavish service all round. (compared to what was there in 1992)

 

[plcd1]

My sense of things is that Crossrail will fill up pretty quickly in the peaks. Off peak demand will build slightly more slowly. Given the phased way it opens then a lot of people will get used to changing to / from it at Paddington as through services only start a year later. The extent of Central Line relief will be highly dependent on the efficiency of the service from the Shenfield line into the CR core. That line is already extremely busy but there's a big transfer at Stratford to / from the Central Line. That will largely drop away in the short term as people experiment on what journey patterns work best. I strongly suspect that any relief to the Central Line and north side of the Circle will be fairly short lived - a matter of months after the full Crossrail service starts (Dec 2019). I think it's also considered something of a certainty that Crossrail's extra capacity will unleash a surge of suppressed demand on the Great Western route and possibly from Thamesmead and Woolwich. The former route is the harder one to deal with as it has less scope to add more services whereas Abbey Wood will have a good service level from day one.

There will be a number of fairly significant network changes in a period of 2-3 years with shifting travel patterns as a result (Thameslink, Barking Riverside, Crossrail, Met Line to Watford Junc and later Northern Line to Battersea). We may also have other TOC franchise related changes that are not yet apparent. This will make it very difficult for the operators and planners to be "certain" about what is actually going on with the transport network, journey patterns etc. We also have no great idea at this point about what will happen to housing in London and that's another big influence on transport demand and patterns of use.

 

[peterson]

Whether people change at Reading for Crossrail will depend on their individual journeys and their own preferences, but they should consider the situation as it will be.

On the basis of current planning, off-peak there will be two Crossrail trains per hour between Reading for London. These replace the two Reading terminators on the Relief lines. Essentially these call at all but a couple of the stations en route.

The Crossrail web site shows journey times to Paddington of 50 minutes compared to the fastest current (Intercity) time of 28 mins. However it also lists times to Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road which by Crossrail will be 51 or 52 mins and by the current service are 53 or 55 mins. but these times are by the existing Underground routing.

In other words after the expected acceleration on completion of engineering work and the introduction of the Hitachi trains on many services the fast trains will be some 30 minutes faster to Paddington than Crossrail.

There will be, off-peak, some 9 or 10 non-stop trains to London which call at Reading. This means that it will be about 30 mins faster to places like Bond Street if one remains on these trains and then changes to Crossrail at Paddington. The access to Crossrail under Eastbourne Terrace will be easy as the old ticket hall is being opened up leading directly from the concourse/circulating area to the Crossrail platforms. A seat is almost guaranteed as half the eastbound trains will start at Paddington.

So, changing off a fast, 125mph, train at Reading could involve a wait for anything up to 30 minutes (in which time the train one alighted from would have arrived at Paddington) in order to be able to travel in a stopping train with no toilets and a 90mph top speed. A change is necessary in either case - changing at Paddington will permit a faster journey.

I've written a piece on my blog about the Crossrail impact on Reading. Broadly I concur with the above. Appreciate your thoughts (or corrections!)...
https://readingonthames.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/crossrail-the-reading-perspective/

 

[Antman]

I've written a piece on my blog about the Crossrail impact on Reading. Broadly I concur with the above. Appreciate your thoughts (or corrections!)...
https://readingonthames.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/crossrail-the-reading-perspective/

Interesting article, I wouldn't fancy an all stops service from Reading

 

[coppercapped]

I've written a piece on my blog about the Crossrail impact on Reading. Broadly I concur with the above. Appreciate your thoughts (or corrections!)...
https://readingonthames.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/crossrail-the-reading-perspective/

Thank you for your kind words, but...

Mr. Chairman, a point of order, if you will?

Certainly, Mr. Coppercapped!

The blog would be more accurately entitled 'ReadingonKennet'. as the town grew up where the great road from London to the West, which runs south of the River Thames at that point, crossed the Kennet. The Thames in those days was some way away hidden behind its marshy flood plain...

 

[40129]

Note also that Crossrail does not replace the Central line west of Ealing Broadway and IIRC there are no interchange points between Ealing Broadway and Bond Street. Therefore, I can't really see any incentive for passengers from the West Ruislip branch to switch to Crossrail unless they are travelling beyond Liverpool Street

 

[peterson]

Thank you for your kind words, but...

Mr. Chairman, a point of order, if you will?

Certainly, Mr. Coppercapped!

The blog would be more accurately entitled 'ReadingonKennet'. as the town grew up where the great road from London to the West, which runs south of the River Thames at that point, crossed the Kennet. The Thames in those days was some way away hidden behind its marshy flood plain...

Haha. Very true. But I feel as a town we've been far too tentative at embracing our stretch of the Thames. And with the growth of the station so close, now is the time to plonk some civic buildings (theatre, library) on the banks of the Thames and make it the focal point of the town. This has started with the new footbridge. Anyway, this is a railway forum! Thanks for your comments.

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting article, I wouldn't fancy an all stops service from Reading

I've written several times on this forum that there will be huge howling coming from the Reading direction about how SLOW Crossrail is from their perspective (conveniently forgetting it was never meant for them in the first place) and political agitation to get semi-fast services to Paddington. Just mark my words!

 

[southern442]

I've written several times on this forum that there will be huge howling coming from the Reading direction about how SLOW Crossrail is from their perspective (conveniently forgetting it was never meant for them in the first place) and political agitation to get semi-fast services to Paddington. Just mark my words!

There are always people who take things far too upfront, be it forgetting that Crossrail wasn't meant for Reading in the first place and is just a stopping service, or the ES printing that there will be thousands of new class 700 trains (not carriages.) So there will be that group who don't get what-they-thought-they-were-but-actually-weren't promised, and will complain....

Although given that the trains are about double the size for most of the time, overcrowding should be drastically reduced. Looking at that interior, though, it looks to be that there won't be any more seats than before...

 

[jopsuk]

there will of course be more capacity on the Thames Valley electrics (Class 387/365 operated) which will have toilets and will be much faster than Thameslink

 

[Wivenswold]

The Central Line itself could see massive change if any of it's ex-GNER lines are incorporated into Crossrail 2.

In fact, looking far into the future, it's not inconceivable that other tube lines will have their open-air sections turned into other Crossrail-style schemes with some tube lines cut back to serve the central underground sections. With the traditional tube network being a secondary central system to a big network of sub-surface/overground/crossrail lines.

Anyway, back to this century......

 

[Nym]

The Central Line itself could see massive change if any of it's ex-GNER lines are incorporated into Crossrail 2.

In fact, looking far into the future, it's not inconceivable that other tube lines will have their open-air sections turned into other Crossrail-style schemes with some tube lines cut back to serve the central underground sections. With the traditional tube network being a secondary central system to a big network of sub-surface/overground/crossrail lines.

Anyway, back to this century......

Do tell, where on the Central Line was previously GNER?

Do you perhaps mean the GER or ECR?

Or maybe LNER or BR?

 

[jopsuk]

Wivenswold: Highly unlikely. CR2 will not touch the Central Line. That's pretty clear from the consultation, where the northern section is a new alignment on one branch and the Lea Valley on the other, with a vague "Hackney" branch not at all explained. Anyway, Wanstead/Redbridge/Gants Hill are on a tube-sized tunnel section. On the Picadilly Southgate is tube-sized as is the Heathrow branch. the tunnel north of Hendon on the Northern is tube.

OK the rest may be possible, but why?

 

[swt_passenger]

Wivenswold: Highly unlikely. CR2 will not touch the Central Line. That's pretty clear from the consultation, where the northern section is a new alignment on one branch and the Lea Valley on the other, with a vague "Hackney" branch not at all explained. Anyway, Wanstead/Redbridge/Gants Hill are on a tube-sized tunnel section.

As you say, although taking over part of the Central line was a definite option in the very early days - in fact back when they were trying to decide whether to build a traditional tube line (i.e. the Chelsea -Hackney line from Wimbledon with northern extensions), the 2008 safeguarding aimed at taking over the Epping branch.

But that's very much water under the bridge now, Crossrail 2 is a somewhat different beast than 'Chelney'...

 

[coppercapped]

I've written several times on this forum that there will be huge howling coming from the Reading direction about how SLOW Crossrail is from their perspective (conveniently forgetting it was never meant for them in the first place) and political agitation to get semi-fast services to Paddington. Just mark my words!

Why should there be any 'howling' from Reading? The only group of people making a fuss about Crossrail are the estate agents!

The trains that Crossrail will replace are already 'semi-fast', there being no 'all stations' trains to Paddington starting from or terminating at Reading. In a standard (off-peak) hour these trains are the XX.18 and XX.48 services from Reading and the corresponding return services from Paddington; these omit stops at Langley, Iver, Southall, Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line. They take between 58 and 60 minutes for the journey which the Crossrail journey calculator says will be reduced to 50 minutes.

The limited stop services calling at Slough are formed by the half-hourly service from Oxford and so will not be affected by Crossrail. These will be formed in future by the new emus cascaded from Thameslink.

 

[cle]

Why should there be any 'howling' from Reading? The only group of people making a fuss about Crossrail are the estate agents!

The trains that Crossrail will replace are already 'semi-fast', there being no 'all stations' trains to Paddington starting from or terminating at Reading. In a standard (off-peak) hour these trains are the XX.18 and XX.48 services from Reading and the corresponding return services from Paddington; these omit stops at Langley, Iver, Southall, Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line. They take between 58 and 60 minutes for the journey which the Crossrail journey calculator says will be reduced to 50 minutes.

The limited stop services calling at Slough are formed by the half-hourly service from Oxford and so will not be affected by Crossrail. These will be formed in future by the new emus cascaded from Thameslink.

Exactly, Reading will still have tons of train, both fast and slow. It's becoming its own hub and needs a proper mix of trains for across the region.

And people will be free to get a fast one and then change at Paddington if they want. Or use the loos, which people seem to be obsessed with.

I think eventually Crossrail will operate 4 or even 6-8tph (with WRAtH) to Reading, and I'm sure there will be a better mix of stopping patterns to make the overall journey competitive with a fast train and a change.

25 mins fast and then change, or 40 mins to Padd without needing to move until Bond St/Canary Wharf - plenty would do so, especially if doing emails or watching things.

 

[LexyBoy]

Why should there be any 'howling' from Reading?

Rob Wilson has been banging on that Crossrail isn’t right for Reading as it doesn’t provide a quick link to the City, which seems to be his idea of what would benefit the town. (He initially wasn’t in favour of Crossrail extension for this reason, but despite claiming the extension as a victory continues to say it won’t bring benefits).

In my view Reading makes much more sense than Maidenhead as a western terminus for operational and connectivity reasons. The benefits to Reading of the extension are fairly minor, and stem more from keeping better connexions to the rest of the Thames valley than to London.

 

[coppercapped]

I think eventually Crossrail will operate 4 or even 6-8tph (with WRAtH) to Reading, and I'm sure there will be a better mix of stopping patterns to make the overall journey competitive with a fast train and a change.

25 mins fast and then change, or 40 mins to Padd without needing to move until Bond St/Canary Wharf - plenty would do so, especially if doing emails or watching things.

40 minutes to Paddington with the existing infrastructure is pie in the sky - the Reliefs have stopping trains and there are no more paths on the Mains east of Stockley Bridge Junction. With electrification and the higher power-to-weight ratio of the Class 800 trains, and some spirited driving, it should be possible to reach Paddington in 20 minutes from Reading - in days gone by I've done it in 22 minutes with an HST.

(Of course - to make Crossrail more attractive a clever wheeze would be to build a station at Old Oak Common and stop the GW expresses there...)

To be able to operate a train service of the intensity and speed you suggest would mean that the capacity of the route - essentially that of the Relief Lines - will have to be significantly increased. Don't forget that a fair number of freight trains operate over that stretch during the day and pathing 4,000 tonne stone trains, the return empties and trains serving the car industry will not be easy. At the very least some judicious widening and more platform capacity to permit overtaking will be needed. That will be very expensive...

 

[swt_passenger]

At the very least some judicious widening and more platform capacity to permit overtaking will be needed. That will be very expensive...

Additional platforms, passenger loops and extended freight loops are all happening anyway as part of the Crossrail on-network activities. Acton dive-under and West Ealing bay (for Greenfords) are both capacity interventions for Crossrail as well.

 

[coppercapped]

Additional platforms, passenger loops and extended freight loops are all happening anyway as part of the Crossrail on-network activities. Acton dive-under and West Ealing bay (for Greenfords) are both capacity interventions for Crossrail as well.

I know, but they will not be sufficient to enable reliable operation of the suggestion made by @cle in an earlier post that the future could bring 6 to 8 Crossrails per hour to Reading.

What is being built now is the minimum to enable the initial Crossrail timetable to be operated reliably with its increased frequency out to Heathrow and West Drayton. The 'interventions' you mention are all between Stockley Bridge Junction and Paddington - what will probably be needed are more platforms at Slough and room to pass slower trains between Twyford and points east.

 

[Clip]

Wivenswold: Highly unlikely. CR2 will not touch the Central Line.

Being a tad pedantic here but doesn't it stop at TCR?

 

[Nym]

Being a tad pedantic here but doesn't it stop at TCR?

and Bond Street, Liverpool Street...

But none of these are particularly easy interchanges...

 

[jopsuk]

and Bond Street, Liverpool Street...

But none of these are particularly easy interchanges...

You're confusing CR1 and CR2. TCR will be the hyper-interchange of CR1, CR2, Northern and Central.


Though by "CR2 won't touch the Central" I pretty clearly meant that it won't take over the tracks. It's a bit difficult to build a North-South route through central London without crossing the Central Line, obviously, and it would be stupid not to have an interchange.

 

[The Ham]

It is true that Crossrail will not benefit Reading very much for journeys into London, however (especially with Heathrow's western access, possibly served by Crossrail trains) there is scope for there is to be a lot of people wanting to travel to/from Reading on Crossrail.

Reading is quite an influential town with some quite significant employers. Also as Reading is quite a major hub to get to other places there will be demand from people traveling to other destinations. Yes interchanges may not be significant, but currently off peak from many stations between London and Reading it could be easier to go into Paddington and then back out again. With Crossrail, even if there's not much in it (assuming a fast change at Paddington), it'll be fairly attractive.

Crossrail trains arriving and departing Reading will not be full and standing however nor will they be deserted.