Is Delay Repay fit for purpose?

[Silverdale]

I have read several of the threads which discuss customers' woes in making delay repay claims. While I have every sympathy for customers who on the face of it are entitled to compensation but are having trouble obtaining it, their difficulties leave me wondering why delay repay is structured as it is?

As I understand it, the premise of delay repay is twofold. First, that customers should be compensated when their journeys are delayed and second, that the payments should incentivize the railway industry to reduce the consequential financial loss, by reducing the incidence of delays.

On the first part, regarding customers, the general rule with compensation is that it's commensurate with the loss or injury suffered, but that's not how delay repay works.

All customers arriving X minutes late at a particular destination station - Derby, say - suffer the same loss, namely; their ability to spend a particular X minutes of their lives in that city. If there is to be compensation paid for this loss of X minutes in Derby, surely it should be paid in equal amount to all who have suffered it?

On the second part, is there any evidence that the delay minutes suffered by the average customer has reduced since delay repay was introduced? Does delay repay actually work to incentivize the railway to reduce delays over and above the other incentives there are to do that?

Is delay repay fit for purpose?

 

[Gareth Marston]

A short answer is that on a walk on railway that doesn't need to be pre booked with address details the TOC simply doesn't know who was delayed and the only way to claim is to let the individuals concerned do so.

I'll take the benefits of a walk on railway over improved automatic delay repay book ahead only any day.

 

[PG]

All customers arriving X minutes late at a particular destination station - Derby, say - suffer the same loss, namely; their ability to spend a particular X minutes of their lives in that city. If there is to be compensation paid for this loss of X minutes in Derby, surely it should be paid in equal amount to all who have suffered it?

I'd take issue with that as although in your instance all passengers have suffered the loss of x minutes of their free time they almost certainly haven't all paid the same price to travel... how would that work for passengers who have only paid a fraction of what others have paid - could it even result in the somewhat ludicrous situation of some passengers gaining more then they paid for their ticket (so effectively making a profit) while others receive a fraction of what they paid?

 

[Brucey]

I'd take issue with that as although in your instance all passengers have suffered the loss of x minutes of their free time they almost certainly haven't all paid the same price to travel... how would that work for passengers who have only paid a fraction of what others have paid - could it even result in the somewhat ludicrous situation of some passengers gaining more then they paid for their ticket (so effectively making a profit) while others receive a fraction of what they paid?

That's how it works with airline delays.

After all, it's being marketed as "compensation", when in fact it's just a partial refund. There is no compensation about it, if the amount is less than the ticket cost.

 

[Haywain]

As I understand it, the premise of delay repay is twofold. First, that customers should be compensated when their journeys are delayed and second, that the payments should incentivize the railway industry to reduce the consequential financial loss, by reducing the incidence of delays.

I don't agree that is is part of the reason for delay repay. TOCs are measured on performance as part of their franchise agreement and can be penalised for failing to meet pre-determined targets for on time running and cancellations. Further, any delay that is that fault of the TOC will incur penalty payments to Network Rail and, through that route, other TOCs.

 

[furlong]

To understand the background to Delay/Repay, read https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/delay_repay_scheme_adoption

 

[Silverdale]

... how would that work for passengers who have only paid a fraction of what others have paid - could it even result in the somewhat ludicrous situation of some passengers gaining more then they paid for their ticket (so effectively making a profit) while others receive a fraction of what they paid?

Compensation based only on the length of delay could indeed mean that a customer received more than they had paid for their ticket, but why is it ludicrous? You say such a customer would be making a profit, I disagree. They might have more cash in hand, but they have suffered the loss from the delayed arrival.

 

[Silverdale]

I don't agree that is is part of the reason for delay repay. TOCs are measured on performance as part of their franchise agreement and can be penalised for failing to meet pre-determined targets for on time running and cancellations. Further, any delay that is that fault of the TOC will incur penalty payments to Network Rail and, through that route, other TOCs.

If that is the case, and it seems to be, judging by the documents supplied in the FoI request linked to by furlong (thanks, furlong) then we are just left with compensating customers as the premise of delay repay.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Compensation based only on the length of delay could indeed mean that a customer received more than they had paid for their ticket, but why is it ludicrous? You say such a customer would be making a profit, I disagree. They might have more cash in hand, but they have suffered the loss from the delayed arrival.

Because people could (and would!) buy a £3 Peartree-Derby ticket (to continue the Derby example) and simply claim a small fortune every time it didn't run, as they would be over 24 hours late!

 

[TUC]

That's how it works with airline delays.

After all, it's being marketed as "compensation", when in fact it's just a partial refund. There is no compensation about it, if the amount is less than the ticket cost.

But airlines in most cases operate simple point to point journeys with everyone travelling from and to the same place. How would an equal split work fairly for trains with multiple variations on journeys?

 

[Brucey]

But airlines in most cases operate simple point to point journeys with everyone travelling from and to the same place. How would an equal split work fairly for trains with multiple variations on journeys?

That's the case for the newer low cost airlines, but traditional airlines still do connecting flights. In fact, even Ryanair do a limited number of connecting flights now. In this case, the delay is calculated on the arrival time at the final destination.

Even better than the railways, the time of arrival is considered to be when the doors have opened and passengers can alight. On the railway it's considered some point when the train passed over a track circuit which may or may not be anywhere near the station. I'm currently arguing this with SWR at the moment - they claim the train has arrived on the Down Platform at Brookwood well before it has deviated from the Down Fast Line (the platform is on the Down Slow).

 

[Silverdale]

Because people could (and would!) buy a £3 Peartree-Derby ticket (to continue the Derby example) and simply claim a small fortune every time it didn't run, as they would be over 24 hours late!

Would they?

Regardless of delay repay, the railway is obliged to transport the customer to their destination, rather than leave them stranded for 24hrs. If the last advertised train of the day (17:42 departure) was cancelled, a special stop order on the next Crewe service would get any otherwise stranded passengers to their destination, or a taxi would be provided. The consequent delay might exceed an hour. If there was a fixed rate of compensation for delay, anyone claiming as you suggest would quite reasonably be asked how they managed to incur the 24hr delay they are claiming.

I have no idea if 1K23 is especially prone to be cancelled or to miss the Peartree stop, but since you mention it, let's suppose it is. Consider someone intending to travel first class from Aberdeen to Derby on an Anytime Single, costing £358.50. With delay repay structured as it is, they can take a spin on the delay repay lottery by purchasing the ticket to Peartree instead of Derby. At no additional cost and even if they are not actually delayed on the journey to Derby they get the additional chance of claiming a full refund of their ticket price back from East Midlands Trains, should 1K23 be cancelled on the day they are travelling.

 

[Deafdoggie]

But you would be making the journey. For £3 it is worth getting a ticket regardless, as on your system you could get £100 or more back! If you were catching the train from Peartree, you could just say you didn't travel as it was cancelled and you didn't know of any alternative transport (highly likely anyway!) and still be quids in under your system.

There are also plenty of other cheap tickets people would buy to make a small fortune under your system of paying out. For a very small outlay, the returns would be huge!

 

[Brucey]

But you would be making the journey. For £3 it is worth getting a ticket regardless, as on your system you could get £100 or more back! If you were catching the train from Peartree, you could just say you didn't travel as it was cancelled and you didn't know of any alternative transport (highly likely anyway!) and still be quids in under your system.

There are also plenty of other cheap tickets people would buy to make a small fortune under your system of paying out. For a very small outlay, the returns would be huge!

Perhaps such a system could be combined with a properly implemented smartcard system to prove the journey was actually made, i.e. if you want to be eligible for enhanced compensation, then you must use a smartcard.

 

[Hadders]

Perhaps such a system could be combined with a properly implemented smartcard system to prove the journey was actually made, i.e. if you want to be eligible for enhanced compensation, then you must use a smartcard.

I went to get a Shambleslink service from St Pancras last week. Delayed by 27 minutes. Should I tap in and add to the congestion on the sub-subterranean platforms or hang around the upper levels, browse the shops and get a coffee then tap in a few minutes before the late departure?

Under your suggestion I'd have to tap in and wait on the platform to be eligible for delay repay. I don't think the rail industry would want that at busy stations.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don't see what amount would be paid under a flat rate pay out. Some tickets are £1,000 so would it be more than that? In which case my delayed Stourbridge Town to Stourbridge Junction ticket is excellent value in a delay. If the train breaks down, it can be over an hour before it is fixed, so I'd qualify.

I can only see a flat rate compensation working, if there is a flat rate train fare.

 

[Abpj17]

Compensation is misleading. It's actually partial refund/credit based on performance.

For a long list of reasons, it's impossible to calculate the actual loss/damages (some people are on e.g. much higher hourly rates than others, how do you price missing a kid's birthday party etc.).

So it's sensibly structured as partial refund. However, beyond that, it's not fit for purpose:
With GTR the incentives can't possibly be working - as they don't keep passenger income. It goes to DfT.
And there is an overall incentive not encourage use of delay repay - because they'll get money from Network Rail - and keep if the customer doesn't claim.
For a severely dysfunctional service like GTR, there is a huge burden on the customer to claim. It's got slightly better (now paid in cash/bank transfer rather than rail voucher!!), and 15 mins rather than 30 but it's still a faff to work out the details and submit the claim.

GTR provides smart cards so it is possible to automate claims. But that's hindered by the gates not consistently recording touch-ins and outs. And it can't capture when you just don't bother going to the station for an hour because there are no trains. TL is pretty good at cancelling 2 or more trains in a row at the moment. And when the service melts down, it really does - with no trains for half a day at a time.

Delay repay works for one-off journeys.

For regular travellers/season ticket holders ideally you'd have delay repay for excessive delays (back to the 30 mins). And like in the good old days, price reductions on new season tickets (down to weekly) reflecting performance. In the old days, you routinely got 5% or 10% off because the service was consisently so poor.

 

[woody505]

Northern have either given up or being v generous 35 mins delayed on a £3.10 single sent me two open returns on northern rail. Brilliant for me turned up ten mins early for a train too find a late running train just pulling in so got home earlier than planned

 

[Haywain]

Northern have either given up or being v generous 35 mins delayed on a £3.10 single sent me two open returns on northern rail. Brilliant for me turned up ten mins early for a train too find a late running train just pulling in so got home earlier than planned

So you claimed for not being delayed?

 

[Starmill]

Northern have either given up or being v generous 35 mins delayed on a £3.10 single sent me two open returns on northern rail. Brilliant for me turned up ten mins early for a train too find a late running train just pulling in so got home earlier than planned

I don't follow. You say you arrived early at your destination? Did you claim Delay Repay for an early arrival?

 

[woody505]

Very grey area I spose drinking in the pub next too station keeping n eye on times we would of ideally got running late so we got another drink in, not a problem on this occasion walked too platform for the next scheduled train running on time but the late one turned up just b4. My conscious too claim for a single when I didn't really mind as I could enjoy another beer. Should my conscious send the two open returns bk saying they've over composted me?

 

[Silverdale]

Compensation is misleading. It's actually partial refund/credit based on performance.

For a long list of reasons, it's impossible to calculate the actual loss/damages (some people are on e.g. much higher hourly rates than others, how do you price missing a kid's birthday party etc.).

So it's sensibly structured as partial refund.

What you are quite properly describing are the consequential losses suffered as a result of a delayed arrival. Where they are quantifiable and are consequential to a delay or other failures of the TOC to provide the contracted service, claims can be made under Consumer Rights Act and aspects of Common Law.

Delay repay, as referenced in the FoI documents linked to above, is supposed to compensate the customer purely for the delay incurred, not the losses consequential to that delay.

Even if delay repay was supposed to address consequential losses in some way, it fails to do so. The customer suffering the highest consequential loss isn't always the one who has purchased the most expensive ticket. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the price of the ticket purchased has no relationship whatsoever to the consequences for the customer of a delayed arrival at their destination.

 

[island]

Northern have either given up or being v generous 35 mins delayed on a £3.10 single sent me two open returns on northern rail. Brilliant for me turned up ten mins early for a train too find a late running train just pulling in so got home earlier than planned

Sounds like a fraudulent claim but ok.

 

[woody505]

Fraud? Train was late so we stayed in pub rather than on platform. Do you have to be on the platform for it too count?

 

[HORNIMANS]

Im currently in dispute with a delay rep claim with LNER. ON A Journey from Colchester to Aberdeen on 14/06/18 with a FC ticket. Firstly they said that Colchester was an WTWC service, it s not its GA. then train from KX to Aberdeen was 63 late, they say it wasn't. What can I do now?

 

[Brucey]

Im currently in dispute with a delay rep claim with LNER. ON A Journey from Colchester to Aberdeen on 14/06/18 with a FC ticket. Firstly they said that Colchester was an WTWC service, it s not its GA. then train from KX to Aberdeen was 63 late, they say it wasn't. What can I do now?

Contact them again and ask them to reconsider. The 10:00 Kings Cross to Aberdeen arrived 63 minutes late. Unless they can show another TOC made you miss the 10:00, then you would be eligible for Delay Repay.