Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[Bletchleyite]

but, we are always told here, people need to book in advance! That is only slightly more than the cheapest air fare I can find for a similar journey.

You could day trip Luton-Amsterdam tomorrow (a reasonably comparable route in terms of distance) for £135?

 

[Bald Rick]

You used to be able to go to France or Belgium at no notice at reasonable fares. If Eurostar was affordable at short notice then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mentioned earlier that it is still possible to use the ferry as a foot passenger but it is a lot more expensive because of the withdrawal of through tickets, it is less convenient and takes longer because the stations are not near the ports any more, it is less frequent, and there is no longer a night service for foot passengers.

If Eurostar is too expensive then London to Brugge or Gent now involves train to Dover, walk/taxi to the docks, ferry to Calais, walk to Calais Ville, train/bus to Dunkerque, bus to De Panne then train (or train via Lille). Or via Hoek van Holland, Rotterdam and Antwerpen. Or by coach. All these options are far worse than getting the ferry to Oostende.

I just looked in the back of the 1997 national rail timetable when through fares were still available and you could get a 5 day return to Paris or Brussels, on the day, for £49. Or a 2 month return for £59/£69.

But back then, the rail / sea / rail option had to be cheap, as it was a lot slower than the competition, which was more expensive. Eurostar has transformed the market.

If you want a cheap and slow option, National Express will happily take you today for £52.

 

[johnw]

The Ostend ferry link was doomed when the operator RMT switched its UK partner from P&O European Ferries to Sally Line hence moving from Dover to Ramesgate. Could it have survived had remained at Dover? It only had one ‘super ferry’ and a decade later P&O closed the Dover Zeebrugge link.

 

[Journeyman]

Unfortunately the market for people deciding on a whim to spend all day doing a journey that can now be done in a couple of hours (and unwilling to pay much to do it!) isn’t going to be worth catering for.

Boat train to Dover western docks etc. was only ever on offer because there was no better alternative. Trying to replicate that now will inevitably be less convenient since infrastructure is driven by demand. And that demand from the vast majority is to get from A to B as quickly as possible for a decent price - most will also happily book in advance to get this.

Absolutely - the cheap rail/sea route was popular because this was back in the day when the only alternative was British Airways or Air France, with a fare running into hundreds of pounds, however far ahead you booked it. The emergence of EasyJet, Ryanair etc. has completely destroyed the market for many other routes, and that's what Eurostar is competing with.

 

[Bromley boy]

What aren't you convinced about? I just copied the fares out of the timetable book. £49 in 1997 is £87 in 2018. An Off-Peak Return London to Dover (not HS1) with a Network Railcard is £24.55 and the ferry crossings are £25 each way. So that's already £74.55 to get only as far as Calais. If I want to go early in the morning from London, which I would more than likely want to, then I can't use the Network Railcard and have to get an Anytime ticket. There is the Calais Anytime Day Return for £28.55 so in theory you could buy two of those (one for each direction). You might be able to get away with that on the outward but you won't have a ferry coupon for the return.

Sorry, not doubting your figures at all.

Just that the modern equivalent of a journey (which remember virtually nobody wants to do), on a walk up basis, doesn’t seem that much more expensive. How much would the onward fare be to Paris/Brussels using interrail/discounts available?

As we have seen, you always have the choice of a national express type coach operator running from London to destinations all over Europe. I’d imagine the old train - ferry - train journey could today be could be done coach - ferry - coach, as a walk up, for comparable prices/timings.

You used to be able to go to France or Belgium at no notice at reasonable fares

Based on the above, it seems you still can.

You can also get to Belgium/France/anywhere in Europe more quickly and far more cheaply in 2018 than during boat train days if you are prepared to exercise a little flexibility and book in advance. That is of more relevance to the vast majority of modern travellers.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I agree that it's a shame that it is considered necessary to have such extensive security checks before using the Eurostar. There are no such comparable checks when travelling on HS1, or the Eurotunnel car services, or the TGV services on the other side. So I fail to see why a service where security checks are not deemed necessary for each intermediate part of the journey, requires security checks when the journey is done as a whole..

Don't go there - as I was very comprehensively put down by another poster a while back, these things are necessary and can not change due to the exceptional nature of the service and the relationship between the UK and EU/Rest of World/Universe etc.... <sigh>

Honestly, much of the security is pure theater and immigration can be done in a much more efficient manner, but.....

t.

Ian

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think one advantage of the rail/sea route was that it was useful even if you didn't want to go all the way from London to Paris. As an example, a couple of years ago I was in Dover for a few days and it crossed my mind that it would've been nice to have a day trip across the Channel. Not to Paris, just to Boulogne or somewhere. But we didn't - without a car it's just too difficult. As far as I can make out P&O are the only operator that will accept foot passengers at all, the departure point at Dover Eastern Docks is all but inaccessible without transport, and the ferry fares for the 20 mile trip are huge (As I recall, when I checked at the time, it actually cost MORE for 2 people without a car than it did for 2 people with a car!, although quickly checking today, that doesn't currently seem to be the case).

I can't really blame Eurostar for that situation - it's to a large extent an inadvertent consequence of providing a much quicker, non-stop, London-Paris alternative, which has made the market for shorter journeys less viable. And a big dose of port infrastructure being planned entirely around cars and lorries without any thought for public transport users. The latter is sad, but nothing to do with Eurostar. Eurostar stopping so few trains at Ashford and Calais doesn't help though. And I do wonder if there would have been more of a market for short breaks across the Channel (both ways: UK people going to the Pas de Calais area, and French people coming to Kent) if that kind of thing had been promoted and taken into account in infrastructure planning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(As I recall, when I checked at the time, it actually cost MORE for 2 people without a car than it did for 2 people with a car!, although quickly checking today, that doesn't currently seem to be the case).

There is some logic to foot passengers costing more because they require more facilities - passenger terminal, shuttle buses etc.

 

[radamfi]

The cheapest way of using ferries is to usually to take your bike, and then you can use the DFDS service and overnight P&O services not open to foot passengers, but then you have to ride the bike onto the ferry and queue up in all weathers during boarding.

 

[merry]

It's interesting to read this and note that most discussions seem to be based on leisure travel. However, when I use E*, most of the passengers are either (a) leisure or semi-business [mixing business& leisure] between the London & Paris areas, or (b) business like me, travelling a bit further one or both ends.
I have found that E* has been, for journeys not originating near a London airport, faster, cheaper or comparable, and more convenient than air travel.
For comparison purposes, I'm satrting from Newark on the ECML, and travelling to Belgian stations or stations within 2-3 hours of Paris GdN.
Check in is no question easier: to be safe, allow 2 hours at airports, 45 mins at E*. And arrival with bags is much faster on E*, just walk out, no waiting 30 minutes or more for bags to be unloaded.
Transfers are the main saving: It takes up to an hour to get to/from London or Paris centres from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, or Paris CDG. A bit less for Brussels airport (not including Brussels Charleroi: it's miles away, which is where Ryanair totally fail in many cities!). St Pancras and Gare du Nord are right there, ready to take the metro/tube to another station if required. And Brussels Midi is no more than a cross-platform change to go almost anywhere in Belgium.

Ticketing such journeys is something of a pain. For best value, flexibility and safety of connection outside London, you often need the CIV tickets that are very badly advertised - e.g. ewark to London Anytime E* CIV was about £34 last year, compared to the normal £74.50 Anytime. Hard to buy unless you go to ticket offices though. The even cheaper Advance CIV still maintain the guarantee of connetion if E* is delayed, so a no-brainer, but it does mean buying 2 or 3 tickets for the full journey, which is undoubtedly complicated, and it's almost a surprise no agency can make the case for selling them as packages making money from the commissions. But in this fractured open market of travel, airlines are certainly even worse [recent experience of KLM customer care reinforced this opinion!], no chance of guaranteed connections if another operator delays you inbound, so i'll take what i can with the CIV system, thank you. Want to know more about international rail? Search the "Man in Seat Sixty-one" ! - no connection to me, but a really helpful!

My other complaint would be the timetabling, especially now the new trains run less often, and the way the earlier morning trains don't connect well out of arrivals at StPancras & KingsX. Just a bit too early to make it through security unless you sart the jorney into London unfeasibly early, although to be fair the airlines have no hope there because of the check-in/security times.
You can't be rude about the security, it is faster than most airports, and is forced on E* (who'd choose that complexity after all?). You can see how it's been crow-barred into the facilities at each terminal!

Wasted opportunity? NO. Is there more opportunity? Well, maybe, but it's not easy. You could take a bus approach and maximise ridership, but whether profit woudl be there is questionable with so many fixed costs. A simpler pricing approach? - yes, just like the rest of the transport sector, it's wanted by customers but will only happen with strict international regulation, which is not going to happen any time soon. And of course, we'll ahve to see how the extra destinations develop in years to come. That might be the route to the desired growth!

 

[gord]

How busy was the service ? we are thinking taking the train on our next trip to the 'Dam

It was about 3 quarters full as far as Brussels in Standard Premier, the majority got off in Brussels then surprisingly, it really filled up between Brussels and Amsterdam with a new set of passengers. Around 10 of us in my coach were doing the whole journey. There was a change of crew at Brussels too. The service from both crews on the journey was nothing less than superb. Really looked after us all.

That sounds very good indeed, and reasonably priced!

I suppose the issue might be that central London - Amsterdam via Eurostar is competing with LCY - AMS - car to the city for the business market which values time and flexibility (and clearly LCY will have more choice of departures). 4 hours each way is just that little bit too long for an out and back day trip.

But, as a leisure traveller who likes trains, your deal sounds like a no brainer! Let’s hope it’s expanded.

It was an excellent deal, and still reasonable after I upgraded given the attention we received from the staff in Standard Premier. But yes, it really does seem suited to the leisure traveller. There was another family on who were enjoying a trip across Europe and were connecting to Berlin next. Like I said before, the big draw for me was the ease of customs at St Pancras, despite reading the experience of others, I did find it really efficient and straight forward despite it being morning peak. And just walking off with our bags already with us in Amsterdam was really good.

 

[HowardGWR]

It was about 3 quarters full as far as Brussels in Standard Premier, the majority got off in Brussels then surprisingly, it really filled up between Brussels and Amsterdam with a new set of passengers. Around 10 of us in my coach were doing the whole journey. There was a change of crew at Brussels too. The service from both crews on the journey was nothing less than superb. Really looked after us all.



It was an excellent deal, and still reasonable after I upgraded given the attention we received from the staff in Standard Premier. But yes, it really does seem suited to the leisure traveller. There was another family on who were enjoying a trip across Europe and were connecting to Berlin next. Like I said before, the big draw for me was the ease of customs at St Pancras, despite reading the experience of others, I did find it really efficient and straight forward despite it being morning peak. And just walking off with our bags already with us in Amsterdam was really good.

What you call 'customs' is in fact security and nothing more, I believe. (we are still in the EU, I think!).

 

[Roy Badami]

Well, it's security, UK passport control (for leaving the UK) and French passport control (for entering France/the Schengen area) in quick succession at St Pancras.

Though thinking about it, the UK exit checks are sightly surprising given they're not routinely done at other points of exit from the UK. (EDIT: Ok, I guess that's because airlines effectively do this for the government, but Eurostar don't check passports themselves.)

EDIT TO ADD: But you're right, no customs. Under the international treaties that govern Eurostar, customs is nominally done on arrival - but only the UK seem to bother with custom halls at Eurostar arrivals. In Paris, at least, customs is nonexistent. I guess the French aren't too worried about the Brits smuggling in expensive alcohol and tobacco products. And more generally, they.probably feel that the UK has sufficiently strong enforcement against other prohibited items - such as guns or illegal drugs - that they don't see the need for formal customs checks on arrival.

 

[edwin_m]

Hmmm ... a bit odd that when flying to the UK from a Schengen area airport you always have to go through a passport control into the non-Schengen part of the terminal, as you do in both directions on Eurostar ... but not at a UK airport when flying to the Schengen area.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I turned-up at St Pancras recently to buy my ticket to Lille. The off-peak second-class return ticket was £298 plus compulsory £10 booking fee. I had no option but to pay this outlandish fare in full. But I decided there and then to never again submit myself to rip-off Eurostar usury.

... and can you imagine the ticket office here in Oxford, for example, charging all passengers a £10 "booking fee"? Madness!

 

[Roy Badami]

Hmmm ... a bit odd that when flying to the UK from a Schengen area airport you always have to go through a passport control into the non-Schengen part of the terminal, as you do in both directions on Eurostar ... but not at a UK airport when flying to the Schengen area.

I was just thinking about this . My guess is that it's in part because the airports were almost invariably designed pre-Schengen, so it was easier to do it that way than to redesign the airport to have separate Schengen and non-Schengen departure lounges.

How does the UK do it? Do we always have separate domestic and international departure lounges? It's been decades since I've flown domestically in the UK so can't really remember now how we do things.

 

[Roy Badami]

The other way to look at it is that Schengen travel is testedt as effectively domestic (but not quite) . UK airports are typically mainly international, with some domestic .I guess many Schengen area airports have traffic that is majority Schengen (effectively treated as domestic) - which may explain the differenc approach.

 

[Roy Badami]

I turned-up at St Pancras recently to buy my ticket to Lille. The off-peak second-class return ticket was £298 plus compulsory £10 booking fee. I had no option but to pay this outlandish fare in full. But I decided there and then to never again submit myself to rip-off Eurostar usury.

... and can you imagine the ticket office here in Oxford, for example, charging all passengers a £10 "booking fee"? Madness!

I don't think there's any markup for buying last minute in the station beyond the £10 service fee - it just depends on how full the train is . It works just like Advance tickets with a certain number of seats at each price tier .

That said, Eurostar loadings are such that your experience is probably pretty typical

EDIT: BTW assuming you traveled Standard Class, isn't that third class, not second class? -

 

[HowardGWR]

The reason you have to go through passport control at an airport like Schiphol, is because the Dutch Marechaussee (military police who handle migration) want to see if you have any unpaid fines in NL outstanding or are wanted for anything else. I don't understand why you are going through a UK passport check on leaving St Pancras, as this is not done at airports and the only reason the airline does it at the aircraft boarding lounge, is to make sure you are the person who booked the flight. The UK does not wish to know who leaves the UK and the airlines couldn't care less.

 

[JamesT]

The reason you have to go through passport control at an airport like Schiphol, is because the Dutch Marechaussee (military police who handle migration) want to see if you have any unpaid fines in NL outstanding or are wanted for anything else. I don't understand why you are going through a UK passport check on leaving St Pancras, as this is not done at airports and the only reason the airline does it at the aircraft boarding lounge, is to make sure you are the person who booked the flight. The UK does not wish to know who leaves the UK and the airlines couldn't care less.

You might think that, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...sengers-leaving-the-uk/exit-checks-fact-sheet would seem to differ. From that it’s more that the airlines have already collected the information whereas Eurostar haven’t, so they have to do it just before boarding.

 

[Roy Badami]

Right, much as I expected. Historically, exit checks were desks that were largely unstaffed, except when there was a major manhunt underway. Now, I suspect, there's an increasing American-style desire to check everyone against terrorist watch lists, and also to record the exit date of all visitors so that if they overstay their visa the powers that be can hold it against them in future .

 

[island]

You might think that, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...sengers-leaving-the-uk/exit-checks-fact-sheet would seem to differ. From that it’s more that the airlines have already collected the information whereas Eurostar haven’t, so they have to do it just before boarding.

Correct. The staff doing the first check of your passport at St. Pancras are Eurostar (or their contractors), not UK Border Force, and they’re collecting the data which the airlines and EuroTunnel get at check in.

 

[island]

I turned-up at St Pancras recently to buy my ticket to Lille. The off-peak second-class return ticket was £298 plus compulsory £10 booking fee. I had no option but to pay this outlandish fare in full. But I decided there and then to never again submit myself to rip-off Eurostar usury.

... and can you imagine the ticket office here in Oxford, for example, charging all passengers a £10 "booking fee"? Madness!

There’s a £10 fee on Eurostar where a customer chooses an assisted service channel (in person or call centre) for a transaction that could have been completed in self-service. It’s waived for Business Premier tickets and Carte Blanche holders.

Whilst it is valid to say that a local station charging a £10 booking fee on tickets mostly costing a fraction of a Eurostar ticket fare is hard to imagine, the concept in general is not. Nederlandse Spoorwegen charged a €1 fee to use ticket desks instead of TVMs for single or return tickets until a few years ago, when it became a fee for a single use smartcard and was charged for both. It’s not charged for online e-ticket purchases.

 

[edwin_m]

Correct. The staff doing the first check of your passport at St. Pancras are Eurostar (or their contractors), not UK Border Force, and they’re collecting the data which the airlines and EuroTunnel get at check in.

So why the need for a UK exit check a few minutes later?

 

[DarloRich]

Ticketing such journeys is something of a pain. For best value, flexibility and safety of connection outside London, you often need the CIV tickets that are very badly advertised - e.g. ewark to London Anytime E* CIV was about £34 last year,

CIV tickets?

 

[modernrail]

Eurostar needs to be careful. My last few journeys have been poor. The check in is a mess - if you turn up 35 minutes before you will find yourself worrying you are not going to get through security. The staff are not really up to it and often rude and just chatting among themselves (not all obviously but it is something I am feeling more and more) and the system is not set up to get the next train through quickly. I think they should separate the queue into train times - so if there are 3 trains leaving in fairly close succession, there are 3 points of entry into 3 separate queues. Let's be clear, if we can't sort out a train queue at a train station or a passport queue at Heathrow any notion of a change in customs arrangements not causing a severe problem in international mobility of goods and people is a complete joke - and a very bad joke at that. Get real people.

The check in lounges are overcrowded most of the time - perhaps they could start boarding the trains earlier to reduce this problem but the real problem is that the lounges in all 3 Eurostar terminals are too small. They are not good at all for the elderly, infirm or families. All the services I have on have been full and I have paid a lot for a poor choice of seat. It feels like they could add a few more services. The food onboard is poor - and I would guess most UK travellers want something a bit continental and exciting, not a sandwich from the most British shop of them all, M&S. I can't imagine the French and Belgian travellers delight in M&S. The trains themselves are fine but don't feel great because of all the surrounding stress.

Travelling with Eurostar used to be a pleasure - now it is very much in the needs must category for me. Such a shame because a little bit of intelligence could see it straight back in the pleasure category.

 

[jopsuk]

For motor traffic:
At Dover you go through a single building with checkpoints for first UK Border Control and then French Border Control on the way into the port, before reaching the ticket check-in (where you get your boarding pass/lane assignment)
At Eurotunnel, you go through first ticket check-in, beyond which you can visit the terminal building, before UKBC and French Securité at separate plazas.

 

[island]

So why the need for a UK exit check a few minutes later?

I’m not sure I understand you.

The check in sequence at Eurostar St. Pancras is:

1. Scan ticket – verifies you have a valid ticket, and marks it as used in the system
2. Security check (bag X-Ray and walk through metal detector)
3. Eurostar staff collecting passport data to give to UK Border Force for exit checks
4. French border police passport checks for admission to France (either manual or e-gate)

 

[Envoy]

I agree with people saying that Eurostar is far too expensive for travel for those people who do not wish to book well in advance. The trouble is that the company do not have competition. I say the tunnel should be opened up to low cost operators - such as IZY - who operate low cost high speed trains between Paris and Brussels as well as other destinations. (Italy also has a low cost high speed train operator). IZY >https://www.b-europe.com/EN/Trains/IZY

 

[ainsworth74]

CIV tickets?

Tickets subject to the "Convention Internationale pour le transport des voyageurs". Effecitvely it ensures that even if you have more than one ticket you are protected in the event of delays or cancellations. So if you have a ticket on say LNER from Darlington to London and then another on Eurostar from London to Paris if you just had a conventional AP ticket to London, your train was late and you missed your connection then you'd need to buy a new ticket from London to Paris. However if you have a ticket to London International (CIV) then Eurostar are obliged to book you on the next available train to complete your journey. The reverse is also true (i.e. Eurostar is late and you miss your LNER train). They're also usually cheaper than non-international tickets. They are also only valid with an international ticket or booking confirmation showing that an international ticket is held (as they are cheaper to RDG want to avoid people abusing them to get cheap travel).

They're a well kept secret and, unless booking a through international journey, primarily only available from ticket offices (who won't know about them but with sufficient coaching can be pursued to issue them) or from some online retailers (I think possibly just RailEasy). Loco2 has a good write up on them here:

Understanding CIV

You will be protected by CIV if your train journey involves international border crossings or a connecting Eurostar train to or from the UK. This article contains all the information you need to know about CIV and the protection it offers.

What is CIV?
CIV is a set of rules shared by European rail operators to govern international journeys by train. It's a public document that is part of EU law.

You can read the document in full: International Convention for the transportation of passengers (or in French: Convention Internationale pour le transport des voyageurs; hence "CIV"). The document contains lots of information for rail travellers, primarily related to the following:

✓ Your rights and obligations when you travel, called "contract of carriage".

✓ Assistance provided by the rail operator, in case of cancellation, delays and missed connections. It means you'll usually be permitted to travel on the next available train if an earlier train is delayed.

✓ Compensation that may be due in case of delays.
...