Is it possible to couple Desiro classes 450 & 444?

[High Dyke]

18TH December snapped picture at 0940. Heading London direction, don't know anymore about it. Could well be an empty working.

If that was passing Eastleigh then it was 1W96 (07:55 Weymouth - Waterloo) composed of 444011 & 450083

The 450 was attached at Bournemouth.

 

[Matt Taylor]

450/444 combos on the Pompey Direct line should be banned imho. Ive seen disabled passengers in tears and distress when the auto announcers suddenly makes the announcement that only the 4 front coaches of a 9 coach train will open at Fratton despite 8 coaches being alongside the platform.
The combos also seem to have problems switching in the doors of the rear 444 after they have been switched out. Ive twice seen the coastway timetable in tatters after a train down has sat at Havant for 20 mins after panicking passengers have operated the emergency door releases.

I work these trains day in and day out, I've never heard of this issue before. Can you suggest when this happened?

 

[zn1]

i assume electrically compatiable, so should work with any desiro stock...well thats what should happen in the ideal perfect world, where all stock on southern should be generically compatiable within their type fleets, electrostar fleets, desiro fleets.

442s 'should' be able to connect to 455,456 as they are electrically similar but i need correcting on this

 

[southern442]

442s 'should' be able to connect to 455,456 as they are electrically similar but i need correcting on this

442's have buck-eye couplers similar to ones on the slam doors and 455/456's have standard tightlock couplers I believe so this would not be possible.

 

[paul1609]

I work these trains day in and day out, I've never heard of this issue before. Can you suggest when this happened?

I don't have exact dates but I assure you its correct. Its probably over a year ago now. Id suggest that the SWT management know about it because the use of 450/444Combos on the Portsmouth direct line seem to be non existent now whereas they used to be quite common.

 

[455driver]

I don't have exact dates but I assure you its correct. Its probably over a year ago now. Id suggest that the SWT management know about it because the use of 450/444Combos on the Portsmouth direct line seem to be non existent now whereas they used to be quite common.

Mixed pairs down the direct have never been 'common', I drive the things so see all the other trains going in the opposite direction so should know.

 

[bigdelboy]

I don't have exact dates but I assure you its correct. Its probably over a year ago now. Id suggest that the SWT management know about it because the use of 450/444Combos on the Portsmouth direct line seem to be non existent now whereas they used to be quite common.

An almost similar (potential) incident occurred about 3 months ago, but in the last unit of a 3*450 that was changed to terminate at Fratton en route rather than going on to Pompey Harbour. There was a wheelchair bound gentleman in the last unit. It is unlikely he would have made it forward on a 450. The guard was aware and most helpful and moved him out and forward and on at havant.

In the old days a train would have simply have made two stops at a station. (They used to do this on the Dublin Sligo line in my younger days).

I am also not sure if it would have been possible for the train to have move forward slightly and the guard opened the door for the disabled passenger only when it was level with the platform, or if this would have contravened regulations.

Slightly off topic as this is a 450+450+450 not 444+450.

The danger might occur if the guard was unaware/forgot of the disabled person (IMHO we are all human and even the best can get distracted on occasion) ... or if an announcement was made and the person not sufficiently aware. That said the AFAIK disabled person has and facility to talk to the driver, and an able bodied person can also be sent forward to find the guard.

 

[exdeus]

I don't have exact dates but I assure you its correct. Its probably over a year ago now. Id suggest that the SWT management know about it because the use of 450/444Combos on the Portsmouth direct line seem to be non existent now whereas they used to be quite common.

No, not non existent. Happens on my commute about once a month to/from Waterloo. It always seems to sub a set which is normally 10 444 rather than a 12 450.

 

[NSE]

I haven't seen one for ages, my South West trains knowledge generally coming from what ever goes straight through Raynes Park, But today on my way to Raynes Park, a 450/444 went straight through Wimbledon in that order about half 7. It was, I believe, heading for Weymouth, which would surprise me, as you can't have a multiple units (as in more than one) operating south of Poole is it? So having the 450 on the front would say to me that the 444 was being dropped off en route with the Weymouth train being the 450? Either way I could have been wrong, and a replacement for a dodgy 444, but hey, there we go, a formation was sighted today

 

[causton]

I haven't seen one for ages, my South West trains knowledge generally coming from what ever goes straight through Raynes Park, But today on my way to Raynes Park, a 450/444 went straight through Wimbledon in that order about half 7. It was, I believe, heading for Weymouth, which would surprise me, as you can't have a multiple units (as in more than one) operating south of Poole is it? So having the 450 on the front would say to me that the 444 was being dropped off en route with the Weymouth train being the 450? Either way I could have been wrong, and a replacement for a dodgy 444, but hey, there we go, a formation was sighted today

Suppose the 450 could have gone off from Poole (or wherever it splits, Southampton?) into a siding, or gone south, reversed using a crossover to run back north, so it lets the 444 run to Weymouth!

 

[Pumbaa]

The 1635 ex Waterloo was 450.444 with the 450 continuing on to Weymouth yesterday. Perhaps not as unusual as some may think. There are 6 450/444 workings in the current timetable I believe, which amount to ~10 services (including those that go there and back again, as apposed to only there).

 

[Eagle]

Suppose the 450 could have gone off from Poole (or wherever it splits, Southampton?) into a siding, or gone south, reversed using a crossover to run back north, so it lets the 444 run to Weymouth!

Bournemouth is generally the splitting point for Weymouth services running doubled. Could let the front unit proceed from p3 to the centre sidings, while the rear unit carries on.

 

[southern442]

Suppose the 450 could have gone off from Poole (or wherever it splits, Southampton?) into a siding, or gone south, reversed using a crossover to run back north, so it lets the 444 run to Weymouth!

It could've split at Bournemouth with the 450 going to Poole (I believe 450's to Poole are not uncommon) and the 444 going to Weymouth. I think you could get a 9-car down to Weymouth as I think that there are some platforms can accommodate 10-car.

 

[NSE]

I believe that the electrical supply cannot hold a multiple units south of Poole. Regardless of platform length. Therefore you will only see a 4 car 450 or a 5 car 444. Out of interest I guess dmu's could run in multiple as they don't draw traction? Anyway, I may be wrong, but I don't think I am

 

[Tobbes]

But the 444s are limited to 70% power and the 450s are limited to 55% so the actual performance is the same, pretty rubbish really.
From 0-40mph a 455 can keep pace with them and that has half the maximum power available, I have done it several times on the down leaving Clapham jn.

To see what a 450 is capable of you would need to catch a LM 350 which are all set at 100% power. the SWT desiros are strangled in the power department.

This is very interesting - have the planners worked out how much difference it would make on timings if the power supply would allow 100%? I thought that a huge amount of money had been spent upgrading the traction supply, and that this was to allow new generation units to operate to capability. Obviously not!

Tobbes

 

[TheGrew]

This is very interesting - have the planners worked out how much difference it would make on timings if the power supply would allow 100%? I thought that a huge amount of money had been spent upgrading the traction supply, and that this was to allow new generation units to operate to capability. Obviously not!

Tobbes

I have often wondered this, maybe we will find out when the Basingstoke - Southampton / Bournemouth section is converted to ac?

 

[bigdelboy]

I have often wondered this, maybe we will find out when the Basingstoke - Southampton / Bournemouth section is converted to ac?

I stand to be corrected, but I suspect the difference would be most noticable accelerating in the 80-100/110 speed range; or when say climbing from winchester to basingstoke. Thus I suspect woking to northam could benefit.

On the portsmouth direct I suspect the difference may be minimal. The early morning up 444 stopper seems to be quite quick between say haslemere and whitley when it needs to be after being delayed by trees, slows downs to check crossing gates are working properly and miscreants in the last carriage.

Doors which have a quicker open open and shut sequence would probably have a greater benefit.

Generally the 444's are a disaster when overcrowded ..... which is why they are more often used on the portsmouth direct stoppers in the peak which are more lightly loaded.

IMHO It probably works better for a hybrid when the 450 of a 450+444 is at the london end as that is usually the end that will be more crowded.

 

[Eagle]

It could've split at Bournemouth with the 450 going to Poole (I believe 450's to Poole are not uncommon) and the 444 going to Weymouth.

That never happens though. For a start you'd have two trains right behind each other (there is no place to pass other than at Bournemouth itself). If you wanted to do that it would be easier to just split it at Poole.

One possibility is it could have split at Southampton (possibly with the 444 overtaking the 450 at Brockenhurst), but again, that's not normal practice for SWT.

Anyway all this is moot because RTT shows it didn't split into two services. Therefore one of the units must have simply terminated somewhere, Bournemouth being the most likely place as I've detailed.

I think you could get a 9-car down to Weymouth as I think that there are some platforms can accommodate 10-car.

According to the Sectional Appendix, platforms 2 and 3 are actually long enough for 12 cars (although the exact length is 272 m, so you couldn't quite get 12x23 m in there).

Platform 1 is only 121 m, just long enough for a single 444.

 

[zn1]

when the weymouth section was originally powered up with juice rail, ten car 442s were not permitted, only 5 cars due to the power pull of the units, the rep power equipment is still a very powerful traction package even today... u have to remember the electrification was done'on the cheap' but it did rid of the TC's, loco movements south of bournemouth...

 

[swt_passenger]

...u have to remember the electrification was done'on the cheap'

But it wasn't done 'on the cheap'.

It was done to meet the intended service pattern of the time, using single 442s. If they'd installed spare capacity for double length trains running twice as often they'd have been accused of gold plating what was required.

 

[Eagle]

It was done to meet the intended service pattern of the time, using single 442s. If they'd installed spare capacity for double length trains running twice as often they'd have been accused of gold plating what was required.

Same reason as why the up platform at Dorchester South, built at the same time, is only exactly long enough for a single 442 (and therefore a single 444).

 

[Matt Taylor]

IMHO It probably works better for a hybrid when the 450 of a 450+444 is at the london end as that is usually the end that will be more crowded.

Having the 450 at the front is a disaster, people at Fratton, Liphook, Liss, Witley and Milford position themselves to get on at the last door of the front unit of a ten car 444 so when a 9 car turns up they are all around 30 yards from their nearest usable door, the result is a loss of at least five minutes on the journey to London.

 

[zn1]

the fact is the weymouth line was electrified finally, it had new units to work the service, it should have been done years earlier instead of using TC's a diesel and a unit split at Bomo....noone yet on this thread has thanked the NSE old school for actually getting it done...also if memory serves, Aluminium conductor rail was installed too, a first if i recall rightly, noone back in the 80's could forecast what future units would be used, as far as NSE was concerned the 442's would be on the service until they were life expired, with sprinter, CIG, VEP, BEP etc occasionally dropping in.... AC motors and regen braking were still being talked about, The 5wes was king, the DES and JOP wasnt even being thought about...