Is It Time To Ditch the 9.30 Rule?

[Envoy]

Being as commuter traffic is down compared to pre-Covid, would it not be beneficial to ditch the 9.30 rule? By that I mean the fact that on weekdays most departures before 9.30am incur a higher fare. Most Railcards are also not eligible for the discount on weekdays before 9.30am. This must surely result in many leisure travellers putting off making journeys on weekdays as they can do the same trips cheaper on weekends. I understand that Saturdays are now the busiest day. However, it might be a good idea to keep the rule for Fridays as they tend to be busier.

Getting rid of the 9.30 weekday rule would encourage more people to travel on all the days of the week and thus spread the loadings. It would also enable those who do not want to be on trains with sporting fans or loads of Saturday shoppers to travel on quieter days of the week. Charging more for these quieter days seems to be bonkers.

 

[jfollows]

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

Return Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:00 and before 18:30. The restriction after 16:00 and before 18:30 includes any connecting train departing during this period (or re-commencing your journey following a break of journey) within the following areas: Transport for Greater Manchester area plus Alderley Edge, Birchwood, Burscough Bridge, Disley, Handforth, Hoscar, New Mills Central, New Mills Newtown, Padgate, Parbold, Styal, Warrington Bank Quay, Warrington Central, and Wilmslow; Travel South Yorkshire area plus, Darton, Denby Dale, Moorthorpe and South Elmsall; West Yorkshire Metro area plus Cononley, Harrogate, Hornbeam Park, Knaresborough, Pannal, Skipton, Starbeck and Weeton. Valid trains can also be checked using the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk Further information including maps of the restricted areas can be found on the Northern website.

There are similar restrictions elsewhere, such as to/from Birmingham New Street, as well as London of course. I have no problem with "cheap after 09:30" although I see the argument you make also, but the afternoon ones are confusing and intimidating - most people don't know that it's not an offence to upgrade on the train if you fall into the excluded times, so will buy a full-fare ticket "just in case". Also you get an issue that if you board a train, say at Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, the cheap ticket isn't valid because it's after 16:00 but people already on the train who joined before 16:00 can use a cheap ticket. It's confusing and should be abolished.

 

[htafc]

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

There are similar restrictions elsewhere, such as to/from Birmingham New Street, as well as London of course. I have no problem with "cheap after 09:30" although I see the argument you make also, but the afternoon ones are confusing and intimidating - most people don't know that it's not an offence to upgrade on the train if you fall into the excluded times, so will buy a full-fare ticket "just in case". Also you get an issue that if you board a train, say at Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, the cheap ticket isn't valid because it's after 16:00 but people already on the train who joined before 16:00 can use a cheap ticket. It's confusing and should be abolished.

Agree with this, also
applies to some local rovers and can be very frustrating.

 

[kristiang85]

Yes I agree. As a "Railcard commuter" it is odd seeing the 9.20 train quite empty, then the 9.37 more rammed. And lately it's been frequently delayed due to "passenger load".

 

[JonathanH]

Being as commuter traffic is down compared to pre-Covid, would it not be beneficial to ditch the 9.30 rule?

No. Commuter traffic may be down but so are the number of trains. The railway has responded to less demand by reducing supply, thereby reducing costs. It doesn't need to reduce revenue as well.

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

Single leg pricing could well lead to afternoon peak restrictions on more routes. In their consultation on fares reform, RDG effectively proposed a blanket afternoon peak window, such as the one which exists (other than for journeys into Zone 1) in London.

 

[Dr Day]

Peak time restrictions are there to differentiate the market between those that have to travel at certain times (traditionally those going to work or on business) and those making more discretionary trips. Those that have no choice are charged more, to maximise revenue to the railway and in some cases push those with more discretionary travel needs on to quieter times when more capacity is available. Whilst commuting volumes may have dropped, they still exist in considerably numbers, hence I can't see the railway voluntarily losing the extra revenue those needing to travel earlier bring in. Discounts for season ticket holders are more of a loyalty scheme and reduce transaction costs.

I fully accept some reform to fares structure is needed, and PAYG technology can support that in typical short-distance markets, but a blanket removal of restrictions without a re-balancing (ie increasing) of the price of 'off-peak' fares I would suspect would only make railway finances worse, so I can't see it happening.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's not always 0930 The first Off Peak Newcastle to London train ois 0730 the first Super Off Peak is 0825.

 

[jfollows]

Single leg pricing could well lead to afternoon peak restrictions on more routes. In their consultation on fares reform, RDG effectively proposed a blanket afternoon peak window, such as the one which exists (other than for journeys into Zone 1) in London.

That's a good point, and - for me - I have much less of a problem with this. If I'm paying - as in London - contactless for the train that I want at the time I want to travel, then having a higher cost at certain times, including evening "peak" times, is fine as long as it's clear. The problem today is that I buy a "cheap" return ticket and then worry that it's not valid to travel if my plans change, and a lot of people will worry about it too even though the upgrade can be paid at the time on the train. But everyone talks about fares reform, I'm sure a lot of people are working on it, but nothing ever seems to happen, it's all hot air.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Single leg pricing could well lead to afternoon peak restrictions on more routes.

It could also mean many other options become available.

 

[yorkie]

Being as commuter traffic is down compared to pre-Covid, would it not be beneficial to ditch the 9.30 rule? By that I mean the fact that on weekdays most departures before 9.30am incur a higher fare.

Many routes do not have an 0930 restriction but instead have a different restriction. But yes where you are, most local journeys will have an 0930 restriction on Off Peak Day fares.

Do you know roughly how busy the trains near you are before / after 0930? Would you propose to have a different restriction, or simply have everyone pay a lower fare or everyone pay a higher fare?

Most Railcards are also not eligible for the discount on weekdays before 9.30am. This must surely result in many leisure travellers putting off making journeys on weekdays as they can do the same trips cheaper on weekends. I understand that Saturdays are now the busiest day. However, it might be a good idea to keep the rule for Fridays as they tend to be busier.

Getting rid of the 9.30 weekday rule would encourage more people to travel on all the days of the week and thus spread the loadings. It would also enable those who do not want to be on trains with sporting fans or loads of Saturday shoppers to travel on quieter days of the week. Charging more for these quieter days seems to be bonkers.

As for Railcards, there is a huge range of different restrictions applying to different Railcards; many don't have an 0930 restriction and may be more or less onerous depending on various factors.

Single leg pricing could well lead to afternoon peak restrictions on more routes. In their consultation on fares reform, RDG effectively proposed a blanket afternoon peak window, such as the one which exists (other than for journeys into Zone 1) in London.

Single leg pricing is definitely a threat to the affordability of travel in the afternoon peak, yes.

For example LNER"s single leg trial reduces the options from Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak to just the two extremes; anyon who previously bought an Off Peak Return is forced to pay for an Anytime, potentially in both directions, massively increasing the cost.

Make no mistake, the powers that be will never allow us to have any form of simplification that does not result in price increases.

 

[yorksrob]

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

There are similar restrictions elsewhere, such as to/from Birmingham New Street, as well as London of course. I have no problem with "cheap after 09:30" although I see the argument you make also, but the afternoon ones are confusing and intimidating - most people don't know that it's not an offence to upgrade on the train if you fall into the excluded times, so will buy a full-fare ticket "just in case". Also you get an issue that if you board a train, say at Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, the cheap ticket isn't valid because it's after 16:00 but people already on the train who joined before 16:00 can use a cheap ticket. It's confusing and should be abolished.

Indeed, this is where I would start.

These restrictions only exist because Eric Pickles wanted a way to suck up to Dave and wallpaper boy.

 

[jfollows]

Make no mistake, the powers that be will never allow us to have any form of simplification that does not result in price increases.

If/when it ever happens I expect this to be the case - I can currently go to Manchester and back for £5.05 with a railcard at "off peak" times, I think it's unlikely that the equivalent single leg pricing (contactless or not) will be two fares adding up to the same amount (adjusted for inflation), it'll be for a lot more.

 

[yorkie]

If/when it ever happens I expect this to be the case - I can currently go to Manchester and back for £5.05 with a railcard at "off peak" times, I think it's unlikely that the equivalent single leg pricing (contactless or not) will be two fares adding up to the same amount (adjusted for inflation), it'll be for a lot more.

Indeed, very much so. Single leg pricing has been used as an excuse to :

• reduce the range of fares available in a way that means some people pay more than previously
• introduce evening peak restrictions to some journeys which previously didn't have such restrictions
• prevent Railcard holders getting the full discount where they previously were able to

If Single leg pricing is introduced, the powers that be will be making a huge deal of the benefits while being very quiet about the disbenefits. I wouldn't trust Transport Focus to have any effective opposition to this either.

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

There are similar restrictions elsewhere, such as to/from Birmingham New Street, as well as London of course. I have no problem with "cheap after 09:30" although I see the argument you make also, but the afternoon ones are confusing and intimidating - most people don't know that it's not an offence to upgrade on the train if you fall into the excluded times, so will buy a full-fare ticket "just in case". Also you get an issue that if you board a train, say at Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, the cheap ticket isn't valid because it's after 16:00 but people already on the train who joined before 16:00 can use a cheap ticket. It's confusing and should be abolished.

Under the old Penalty Fares Rules and under the current Conditions of Travel it is stated that anyone using a time restricted ticket at an invalid time should only be subject to an excess fare.

However there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure this happens; in relation to Penalty Fares the new Guidelines do not mention the entitlement to an excess exists in the NRCoT (I still believe that the NRCoT applies, but this is down to interpretation).

This has resulted in passengers being charged for whole new tickets or, worse, issued Penalty Fares when using time restricted tickets at an invalid time.

As you say, some people either aren't aware of their entitlement to an excess or don't want to risk it, so end up overpaying (or delaying their journey until the end of the evening peak).

There is no prospect of any of this being resolved in a manner that is satisfactory for customers as the DfT will be looking for any changes to either be "revenue neutral" (which means fares go up as well as down!) or, worse and perhaps more likely in this day and age, to see it as an opportunity to increase revenues.

My understanding is that the DfT has a belief to the effect that if any "levelling" of fares has to occur, then as a general rule, they should be levelled up and not down. However in some (rare) instances they have been forced to level down, due to political (or other) pressures.

 

[leytongabriel]

It's not always 0930 The first Off Peak Newcastle to London train ois 0730 the first Super Off Peak is 0825.

And in London it's 9.30 on National Rail and 9.00 on Tfl for card holders. As for bikes .....!

 

[yorkie]

And in London it's 9.30 on National Rail ...

Depends on the journey being made.

For journeys wholly within London there are no Off Peak tickets available and you have to use Oyster/Contactless; this is not a blanket 'after 0930' restriction but an 0630-0930 restriction (and also 1600-1900 in the evening peak) on most journeys except some contra-peak journeys do have off peak pricing available at times which would normally otherwise be deemed peak times.

For example Wembley Central to Harrow & Wealdstone is off peak throughout the morning peak, and only has an afternoon peak restriction.

 

[Jimini]

My personal favourite (not) is the off peak restrictions to Euston. First off peak (Avanti) trains land at gone 11am I think? That's practically lunchtime!

 

[Envoy]

No. Commuter traffic may be down but so are the number of trains. The railway has responded to less demand by reducing supply, thereby reducing costs. It doesn't need to reduce revenue as well.


Single leg pricing could well lead to afternoon peak restrictions on more routes. In their consultation on fares reform, RDG effectively proposed a blanket afternoon peak window, such as the one which exists (other than for journeys into Zone 1) in London.

If the railway has responded to less demand by reducing the number of trains to reduce costs, then surely it would be better to go out and market services at a lower price to fill seats? This would also have the benefit of reducing road traffic and therefore benefit the country. Better to have trains in service earning some revenue that sitting around doing nothing.

If somebody buys a peak time ticket for say a 2 hour journey starting at 9.20 for example, then they pay the higher fare for the whole journey even though most of it is off peak. The trick here is to buy the peak ticket just as far as the first stop reached after 9.30 and then another at off-peak prices for the rest of the journey. The same thing could be done for any late afternoon restrictions by splitting tickets at the times/places when your train enters or leaves the park restriction. All a load of hassle I know.

Not sure why this has been moved to ‘Speculative Ideas’ as I listed it under ‘Fares Advice and Policy’. I thought this thread was about Fares Policy though I guess it could be listed as ‘Speculative’.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand that Saturdays are now the busiest day.

They are not, and not by a long way.

The busiest day of the week varies week to week, but is always one of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday.

Saturdays carry roughly 65-75% of the passengers carried on any given weekday

Being as commuter traffic is down compared to pre-Covid, would it not be beneficial to ditch the 9.30 rule?

Generally not beneficial to industry finance. There may be some local flows where it makes sense.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Add my name to the suggestions of getting rid of evening peak on Northern and TPE. It's a right pain having to pay more to get into Huddersfield for an evening kick-off when the train is half empty.

 

[Birmingham]

My personal favourite (not) is the off peak restrictions to Euston. First off peak (Avanti) trains land at gone 11am I think? That's practically lunchtime!

Yep, Avanti is practically unusable for leisure day trips on weekdays except Fridays.

 

[Jimini]

Yep, Avanti is practically unusable for leisure day trips on weekdays except Fridays.

I genuinely don't get this one. If you live in GWR land, anything that lands at Paddington after 0930 is off peak, for example. Why is the WCML to Euston nearly two hours behind this (logical) rule?

 

[Mikey C]

The Network Railcard restriction is a very annoying 10am. It would be nice to see this changed, at least for journeys out of London, so not benefiting 95% of commuters, but encouraging against the flow leisure traffic..

 

[JonathanH]

The Network Railcard restriction is a very annoying 10am. It would be nice to see this changed, at least for journeys out of London, so not benefiting 95% of commuters, but encouraging against the flow leisure traffic..

The whole point of the Network Railcard restriction being later than off-peak fares start is to spread the load off the first off-peak trains. So off-peak trains from 0930, Network Railcard from 1000.

The idea that there is lots of against the flow discretionary leisure traffic from passengers in the 30 to 60 age group on weekdays just waiting for lower fares is fantasy.

As it is, the peak fares heading out from London to NSE destinations beyond a certain distance are lower than those heading into London.

I genuinely don't get this one. If you live in GWR land, anything that lands at Paddington after 0930 is off peak, for example. Why is the WCML to Euston nearly two hours behind this (logical) rule?

Nothing of the sort. The first journey on which super off peak tickets are valid from Bristol is after 0930, let alone arrival in London, which works out as 1136.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BRI&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=SSR

Outward Travel; Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:
09:00 from Ashchurch;
09:10 from Avoncliff (if travel is via Bath Spa, the restriction time shown for Bath Spa also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
10:00 from Bath Spa;
09:35 from Bradford on Avon (if travel is via Bath Spa, the restriction time shown for Bath Spa also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
09:21 from Bridgwater;
10:11 from Bristol Parkway; (also valid between 02:00 and 05:30)
09:58 from Bristol Temple Meads; (also valid between 02:00 and 05:04)
09:40 from Castle Cary (if travel is via Bath Spa, the restriction time shown for Bath Spa also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
09:15 from Cheltenham Spa (if travel is via Bristol Parkway, the restriction time shown for Bristol Parkway also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
10:10 from Chippenham;
09:00 from Dawlish;
08:45 from Dawlish Warren;
09:31 from Didcot Parkway;
09:20 from Exeter St Davids;
09:10 from Freshford (if travel is via Bath Spa, the restriction time shown for Bath Spa also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
09:55 from Frome;
09:30 from Gloucester (if travel is via Bristol Parkway, the restriction time shown for Bristol Parkway also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
09:00 from Highbridge;
09;00 from Ivybridge;
10:10 from Kemble;
09:10 from Nailsea & Backwell;
10:30 from Newbury;
09:31 from Oxford;
09:30 from Patchway;
10:30 from Pewsey;
08:45 from Starcross;
09:30 from Stonehouse;
09:50 from Stroud;
10:30 from Swindon; (also valid between 02:00 and 05:45)
09:50 from Taunton; (also valid at 09:27)
09:00 from Teignmouth;
09:35 from Tiverton Parkway;
09:23 from Trowbridge;
09:30 from Westbury (if travel is via Bath Spa, the restriction time shown for Bath Spa also applies for journeys eastbound from this station);
09:20 from Weston Milton;
09:00 from Weston-Super-Mare;
09:30 from Worle;
09:40 from Yatton.

Even the higher priced off-peak return doesn't allow arrival in London before 1000.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BRI&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart earlier than shown from the following stations:

07:30 from Ashchurch for Tewkesbury
08:20 from Avoncliff (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
08:39 from Bath Spa
08:20 from Bradford on Avon (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
07:10 from Bridgwater
09:00 from Bristol Parkway (also valid between 02:00 and 05:30)
08:26 from Bristol Temple Meads (also valid between 02:00 and 05:10)
08:30 from Castle Cary (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
08:21 from Cheltenham Spa (if travel is via Bristol Parkway, the restriction time shown for Bristol Parkway also applies for journeys eastbound from this station)
08:46 from Chippenham
07:25 from Dawlish
07:55 from Exeter St Davids
08:17 from Freshford (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
07:46 from Frome
08:26 from Gloucester (if travel is via Bristol Parkway, the restriction time shown for Bristol Parkway also applies for journeys eastbound from this station)
07:22 from Highbridge
09:05 from Kemble
08:30 from Keynsham
08:10 from Nailsea & Backwell
09:00 from Pewsey
08:31 from Patchway
09:07 from Slough
08:45 from Stonehouse
08:50 from Stroud
09:05 from Swindon (also valid between 02:00 and 05:45)
08:16 from Taunton; also valid on the 07:23 service via Bath Spa
07:20 from Teignmouth
08:10 from Tiverton Parkway
08:06 from Trowbridge (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
08:56 from Westbury (if travel via Bath Spa, restriction time shown applies eastbound from this station)
07:56 from Weston Milton
07:45 from Weston-super-Mare
07:56 from Worle
07:55 from Yatton

Off-peak return from Bristol Temple Meads to London is £90.10
Super-off-peak return from Bristol Temple Meads to London is £67.20
Off-peak return from Birmingham New Street to London is £62.10

What is essentially missing is a fare between £62.10 and £188.80 from Birmingham to London that allows slightly earlier travel, not that the restrictions are inconsistent, when the equivalent prices are considered.

 

[DanNCL]

It's not always 0930 The first Off Peak Newcastle to London train ois 0730 the first Super Off Peak is 0825.

That’s because it’s based on arrival time into London rather than departure from Newcastle. Indeed there are actually three ‘peak’ services from Newcastle that arrive at Kings Cross after 0930.

Off peak tickets aren’t valid on the same 0730 departure from Newcastle if you’re travelling to say York.

The time restrictions from Newcastle are pretty much the reason why the 0752 to Kings Cross is often quieter than other comparable departures, with a Lumo departure 5 minutes behind and the first Super Off Peak LNER departure just over 30 minutes behind - both usually with much higher occupancy rates than the 0752.

 

[geoffk]

Indeed, this is where I would start.

These restrictions only exist because Eric Pickles wanted a way to suck up to Dave and wallpaper boy.

I understood that Northern was given a choice - car parking charges or evening peak restriction and they chose the latter. Can't remember when it was. When I went to Scotland I found that Edinburgh also had an evening peak restriction but it was for a different (shorter) time period than Northern's, while Glasgow had none at all. I found it was pointless buying a Northern Day Rover ticket if I couldn't use it for two and half hours in the afternoon so always travelled on a Saturday or Bank Holiday.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for your contributions thus far. I note that some of you say that dearer peak time trains can leave with more vacant seats while people hold off for the first ‘cheaper’ trains which can be very full. Of course, much depends on length of journey and whether inbound to a major city or outbound from main population centre(s). It would be interesting to see what would happen if they scrapped the peak time fares? Perhaps they could start with scrapping the evening restriction and see if this results in overcrowding or not? Of course, routes vary regarding provision of rolling stock v demand. GWR for example, seem to be desperately short of rolling stock for non London services and non IET stock is old and needs replacing. Cross Country also has a lack of capacity v demand & charge high fares to drive custom away. Funny that this lack of capacity and old stock is for services that don’t serve London!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I understood that Northern was given a choice - car parking charges or evening peak restriction and they chose the latter.

So another example of non-drivers subsidising drivers… sigh.

 

[yorksrob]

I understood that Northern was given a choice - car parking charges or evening peak restriction and they chose the latter. Can't remember when it was. When I went to Scotland I found that Edinburgh also had an evening peak restriction but it was for a different (shorter) time period than Northern's, while Glasgow had none at all. I found it was pointless buying a Northern Day Rover ticket if I couldn't use it for two and half hours in the afternoon so always travelled on a Saturday or Bank Holiday.

I'd rather have gone with car parking charges, but then I don't drive

 

[30907]

I'd rather have gone with car parking charges, but then I don't drive

Me too, but I have two stations within walking distance.
I suspect that part of the reason would be the capital outlay on ticket machines, cameras etc. - though some Northern stations have them (outside the Metro areas - eg Blackburn).

 

[Trainlog]

I definitely think that it should go, the fact that railcards are frowned on at this time period and can charge more to travel in this time period if you don't stop to read the text on the ticket machine. The OP is right i have definitely been put off going on daytrips to places on weekdays because if it means i have to travel before 9 30 the prices are dreadful and it fails to take into account that some might work weekends but have time off during the week to do things instead.

I agree with the idea that yes the railways do need to take advantage of the Early morning commuter areas, but i do think that if the fare cant be abolished at least it should be moved back an hour to 8 30 just so that its available at the end of rushour for Leisure travellers, students, and people who need to do shopping can start to travel and use their railcards.