Is it time to scrap operator specific tickets when Great British Railways begins?

[Journeyman]

To be fair dynamic pricing is used in areas like hotels and airlines but being utterly frank do we really want to see more of it on the railway?

Yes. People like it. On longer distance services it does a lot to fill trains up.

 

[Hadders]

Yes. People like it. On longer distance services it does a lot to fill trains up.

I was thinking about it in short distance journeys.

On long distance journeys they’re fine whilst the regulated off peak/super off peak tickets remain in place as they provide a maximum price which Advance tickets cannot realistically go beyond. However the train companies would live the regulated off peak and super off peak fares to be abolished which would make it a free for all and in my opinion that would not be good for passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking about it in short distance journeys.

On long distance journeys they’re fine whilst the regulated off peak/super off peak tickets remain in place as they provide a maximum price which Advance tickets cannot realistically go beyond. However the train companies would live the regulated off peak and super off peak fares to be abolished which would make it a free for all and in my opinion that would not be good for passengers.

I would indeed agree with you that Advances on local journeys are a negative thing. The UK seems to be the only country where this seems to go on - in most other countries, InterCity travel is dynamically priced and local travel tends to be priced either by distance or zonally.

 

[miklcct]

With no price differential between, for example, the slower West Midlands Trains service and faster Avanti service between London and Birmingham the Avanti trains would quickly become over crowded.

This can be differentiated by having different classes of trains, e.g. express, regional and local, with different fares.

For example, in France, I can take a TGV at a cheaper price than a local train because TGV have cheap advance tickets but local train doesn't have.

I would indeed agree with you that Advances on local journeys are a negative thing. The UK seems to be the only country where this seems to go on - in most other countries, InterCity travel is dynamically priced and local travel tends to be priced either by distance or zonally.

I have never seen an advance fare being available on my local journeys including Bournemouth - Branksome / Poole.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I have never seen an advance fare being available on my local journeys including Bournemouth - Branksome / Poole.

There are other areas where you can purchase advances for the same urban area e.g. XC Advances between Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton, Northern Advances from Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly or Northern Advances from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale.

Some of the Advances Northern sell are for comically short-distance journeys, it appears.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes. People like it. On longer distance services it does a lot to fill trains up.

At the cost and chagrin of locals who rely on the use of the line? No. I'd hate to see the prices I'd have to pay to see my friends in Manchester every time there's an event on. "Sorry, the return to Manchester is £10.40 today because Manchester United are playing Chelsea."

 

[XAM2175]

At the cost and chagrin of locals who rely on the use of the line? No. I'd hate to see the prices I'd have to pay to see my friends in Manchester every time there's an event on. "Sorry, the return to Manchester is £10.40 today because Manchester United are playing Chelsea."

How many complaints like this could be addressed by simply ruling that an advance fare cannot exceed the price of the equivalent open fare for the same journey?

(or even, cannot exceed a certain proportion of the equivalent fare - perhaps 90%?)

 

[Marty82]

Wow! Who knew my wee post after witnessing and feeling sorry for on-board staff would prompt so many views. Just having a read of them now - delayed as been on holiday including dealing with poor railway WiFi! Lol.

 

[RT4038]

The problem with sound Advance tickets like this is that it just gives the TOCs/DfT a license to put up the price at popular times. For example:

A hot bank holiday - increase the fare if you want to go to the seaside
Football at Wembley - kerching that’ll cost more
Off to a music festival- better get used to paying more to get there

What’s wrong with fixed prices for walk-up tickets, even better if there’s single leg pricing.

To be fair dynamic pricing is used in areas like hotels and airlines but being utterly frank do we really want to see more of it on the railway?

The converse being empty trains at slack times because the fixed prices are doing nothing to encourage travel. We've been there, done that and it didn't work very well at filling trains year round.

 

[Hadders]

The converse being empty trains at slack times because the fixed prices are doing nothing to encourage travel. We've been there, done that and it didn't work very well at filling trains year round.

I'm travelling to Exeter in September for a weekend away. Tickets were released yesterday for the outward journey but frustratingly not the return.

Tickets for the two of us, for the outbound journey cost £53.10, but on every other weekend they are £39.90. From what I can see there is no major event on, it's this lack of transparency that winds me up. The train companies can just do as they like.

I'd argue that train use has increased over the last 20 years because the service has got better and it's become more socially acceptable to travel by train rather than because Advance tickets have been introduced. There are no Advance tickets from my local station to London (or many other destinations) but that hasn't stopped the passenger numbers increasing.

 

[miklcct]

I was thinking about it in short distance journeys.

On long distance journeys they’re fine whilst the regulated off peak/super off peak tickets remain in place as they provide a maximum price which Advance tickets cannot realistically go beyond. However the train companies would live the regulated off peak and super off peak fares to be abolished which would make it a free for all and in my opinion that would not be good for passengers.

Anytime fares will still be regulated which sets a price cap on the advances.

 

[Hadders]

Anytime fares will still be regulated which sets a price cap on the advances.

Anytime fares generally aren't regulated. Off Peak Returns are generally the regulated fare although there are some exceptions.

In any case there's no guarantee that fares regulation will continue. The TOCs are arguing that it should be scrapped as it dates back to the 1990s and should be swept away as part of fares simplification.

 

[miklcct]

Anytime fares generally aren't regulated. Off Peak Returns are generally the regulated fare although there are some exceptions.

In any case there's no guarantee that fares regulation will continue. The TOCs are arguing that it should be scrapped as it dates back to the 1990s and should be swept away as part of fares simplification.

Do you mean the fare isn't regulated at all if a route doesn't have off peak fare available?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean the fare isn't regulated at all if a route doesn't have off peak fare available?

No, that’s not really what he means. There’s a summary by Rail Development Group here:

…Around 40 per cent of rail fares are 'regulated', including Season tickets on most commuter journeys, some Off-Peak return tickets on long distance journeys and Anytime tickets around major cities. The government uses July's Retail Prices Index (RPI) measure of inflation to determine the increase in the price of these fares.

Rail fares FAQs | Rail Delivery Group

Money from fares goes towards running and maintaining Britain's railway, a vital public service. For 2016, the average rise in rail fares was 1. 1%, the smallest for six years

www.raildeliverygroup.com

 

[Hadders]

Someone requested a list of Regulated Fares back in 2012. I doubt the list has changed much since then, if at all.

Regulated Flows - a Freedom of Information request to Department for Transport

I would like to request a copy of the most up to date list of all regulated fares flows for the UK rail network. I would like included both those flows regulated as commuter fares and those flows designated as the "regulated fare", for which there should be one for every journey combination...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anytime fares generally aren't regulated. Off Peak Returns are generally the regulated fare although there are some exceptions.

In any case there's no guarantee that fares regulation will continue. The TOCs are arguing that it should be scrapped as it dates back to the 1990s and should be swept away as part of fares simplification.

Generally it's by the type of route/TOC.

Commuter Anytime Day Singles and Returns are regulated, as are season tickets.

InterCity Off Peak Returns are regulated.

This is why Anytime tickets are not outrageous from say Northampton, but become very expensive indeed from say "Market Ketteringborough" despite the distance to London being similar and Northampton having a markedly better service.

 

[Hadders]

Generally it's by the type of route/TOC.

Commuter Anytime Day Singles and Returns are regulated, as are season tickets.

InterCity Off Peak Returns are regulated.

This is why Anytime tickets are not outrageous from say Northampton, but become very expensive indeed from say "Market Ketteringborough" despite the distance to London being similar and Northampton having a markedly better service.

I don't think the Anytime fare from Northampton to London is regulated. The Off Peak Return is and the Travelcard season is but from what I can see Northampton to London isn't a protected commuter fare.

Linking this thread as it has some relevant info.

Outboundary Day Travelcards - Are they regulated?

(For purposes of this question, a Travelcard is a Z1-6 Travelcard from an out-boundary station, like Rayleigh ;-)) I cannot get a clear answer as to whether or not Travelcards are regulated fares or not, and which basket they would fall in to. I am relying on the Document "Fares Review...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[geoffk]

In general I agree that operator specific tickets should be scrapped for journeys like Liverpool - Manchester, Manchester - Leeds and Preston - Lancaster, where the difference in journey times and service quality between operators is not that great. They are just a way of getting more money out of passenger who have bought the "wrong" ticket because they don't understand the system. The most absurd example I've come across is Huddersfield - Deighton, a four-minute journey! I wouldn't expect a ticket from Birmingham or Exeter to London to be valid by either route so would expect the fare to be different. For semi-fast services on the WCML, I guess it depends on whether abolishing the price differential would result in one or other of the services (LM/VT) becoming overcrowded and this could vary by time of day.

 

[jon0844]

As has already been said above, I think going forward it might be better to designate trains as being regional/suburban and Intercity and perhaps charge based on that.. if there needs to be a distinction and a way to offer cheaper (or, more likely, more expensive) tickets.

 

[mike57]

TOC specific ticket are not justified. If I buy a ticket from say Manchester to Liverpool then there should be just 2 options, off peak and anytime, anything else just confuses and complicates the system.

For longer distances there is a possible solution, extend advance tickets, a spur of the moment trip from Birmingham to London for example, you walk up to the ticket office/go online just before you are ready to leave, and you could be offered an advance ticket on the next LM service at one price or a normal ticket at a higher price (faster service). I also think the current situation where there is frequently little difference between a single and return fares needs to change, as this discourages travellers making non out and back trips, do away with returns, all singles are half return fare. This helps with the scenario above as well, when its time to return again you have a choice of 'normal' or advance, and make your choice based on your circumstances. Also if you know your outward travel time, but cant predict your return you can save some money by buying advance for the outward journey and a normal single for the return, or buy your advance well in advance saving more money, and take your chance on the day, with the most expensive being a normal anytime single

This still allows you to manage loadings between faster and slower services, once the advances have sold out (i.e. train say 50% full of advance tickets) then only normal tickets are offered, in which case people will gravitate to the fastest services

The simpler the system the less people will get caught out, and this frees up staff to concentrate on the fare dodgers which is a better result for everyone.