Is London Bridge to Waterloo East using Southeastern Trains a zone 1 journey?

[redreni]

My assumption was always that it was about maintaining the higher fares for a TfL + NR journey. E.g. If travelling from somewhere on the Jubilee line, say Bond Street, to Greenwich for example, the system would know if you went Bond Street - Bank - Greenwich or if you used national rail by going Bond Street - Southwark / Waterloo East - Greenwich.

Maybe, although if that's the case, thankfully attitudes seem to have changed between whenever those barriers went in and whenever the detailed design of the rebuilt Abbey Wood station was finalised. Because you now have journeys like Farringdon to Abbey Wood where PAYG fares are charged on the TfL scale even if you make the journey on Thameslink only, or on Thameslink to London Bridge then Southeastern.

Thank goodness we don't have fare gates all over the interchanges within Farringdon and Abbey Wood!

Who knows, perhaps revenue risk having shifted from Southeastern to DfT might be relevant?

 

[bicbasher]

Maybe, although if that's the case, thankfully attitudes seem to have changed between whenever those barriers went in and whenever the detailed design of the rebuilt Abbey Wood station was finalised. Because you now have journeys like Farringdon to Abbey Wood where PAYG fares are charged on the TfL scale even if you make the journey on Thameslink only, or on Thameslink to London Bridge then Southeastern.

Thank goodness we don't have fare gates all over the interchanges within Farringdon and Abbey Wood!

Who knows, perhaps revenue risk having shifted from Southeastern to DfT might be relevant?

I believe they go for the cheapest PAYG fare between two stations that use two different fare scales.

Forest Hill to Farringdon used to be NR default regardless if you travelled via London Bridge on Southern/Thameslink or via Windrush, H&C or Elizabeth on TfL, but since NR fares have increased and is still the default journey, a pink reader tap is required at Whitechapel to get the cheaper TfL single fare.

 

[miklcct]

Assume that the final destination of the passenger is "Green Park", can this ticket be used by interchanging between rail and tube at Waterloo East / Southwark (where the rail validity ends at Waterloo East, following a permitted route to London, and the U1 portion starting at Southwark), making this ticket valid for a rail journey to Waterloo East?

U-zone tickets do not restrict where you change between rail and tube, as long as the journey is in the correct zone.

 

[Benjwri]

Assume that the final destination of the passenger is "Green Park", can this ticket be used by interchanging between rail and tube at Waterloo East / Southwark (where the rail validity ends at Waterloo East, following a permitted route to London, and the U1 portion starting at Southwark), making this ticket valid for a rail journey to Waterloo East?

U-zone tickets do not restrict where you change between rail and tube, as long as the journey is in the correct zone.

No because as has been said many times in this thread, the rail validity ends at St Pancras/London Kings Cross. They can continue on Thameslink to London Bridge/Elephant and Castle using interavailability, but there is no validity to Waterloo East at all.

 

[miklcct]

No because as has been said many times in this thread, the rail validity ends at St Pancras/London Kings Cross. They can continue on Thameslink to London Bridge/Elephant and Castle using interavailability, but there is no validity to Waterloo East at all.

I have checked the document RSPS5047 now, the journey shouldn't be validated but the reason is unintuitive:

For journeys which commence outside the zonal system, where the fare destination is zonal, the Rail part of the journey should be validated, up to the first relevant station inside the zonal system. The first station pass/stop event which is in one of the zones covered by the zonal fare is the relevant station. The part of the journey from the journey origin to this station should be validated using NRG rules. All other pass/stop events in the journey must be included in the zones covered by the zonal fare destination.

That means the rail validity ends as soon as you hit the first station inside the zonal system.

In this case, the first relevant station inside the zonal system is St Pancras or King's Cross (depending on which route you are using into London), however, "Farringdon" is not listed as a member of Zone U1 London (UIC code 7007850) so the validation should fail. According to the data, the group contains only 18 members, which are the 18 London terminals (not including Farringdon).

Sorry, but I have got another question from me about the validity of break of journey at Farringdon using such tickets. Because break of journey is not allowed when travelling on the U-zone portion of the ticket, does it mean that journeys such as Willesden Green - tube to Farringdon (break of journey) - Thameslink to outside the zonal area using a Zone U12 ticket is technically not allowed, because I can't start the "rail" validity at Farringdon?! Similarly, if I am using a Zone U1 ticket to travel from outside the zonal area from the north, through the Thameslink core, to London Bridge (from a location where a London Thameslink ticket isn't available), can't I break my journey at Farringdon, then City Thameslink, then London Blackfriars?

 

[OscarH]

You can't use that data to determine which stations are in the zones, it's very unreliable.

I also don't think it should be interpreted like that for UZONE tickets, they're a bit of a different beast

Sorry, but I have got another question from me about the validity of break of journey at Farringdon using such tickets. Because break of journey is not allowed when travelling on the U-zone portion of the ticket, does it mean that journeys such as Willesden Green - tube to Farringdon (break of journey) - Thameslink to outside the zonal area using a Zone U12 ticket is technically not allowed, because I can't start the "rail" validity at Farringdon?! Similarly, if I am using a Zone U1 ticket to travel from outside the zonal area from the north, through the Thameslink core, to London Bridge (from a location where a London Thameslink ticket isn't available), can't I break my journey at Farringdon, then City Thameslink, then London Blackfriars?

My view is that you're correct, this isn't allowed in both cases

 

[Benjwri]

My view is that you're correct, this isn't allowed in both cases

Would the first question not depend on the direction on Thameslink? If they were heading South I’d says it’s valid with Farringdon being a London Terminal?

 

[OscarH]

Would the first question not depend on the direction on Thameslink? If they were heading South I’d says it’s valid with Farringdon being a London Terminal?

Farringdon is never a London Terminal

 

[Benjwri]

Farringdon is never a London Terminal

Yes I have done my usual and mixed up Blackfriars and Farringdon in my head again, apologies.

 

[Edvid]

Farringdon is never a London Terminal

It is for tickets routed Plus High Speed. But you're correct otherwise.

 

[OscarH]

It is for tickets routed Plus High Speed. But you're correct otherwise.

Ah yes thanks! I forget that insane edge case

 

[miklcct]

You can't use that data to determine which stations are in the zones, it's very unreliable.

I also don't think it should be interpreted like that for UZONE tickets, they're a bit of a different beast



My view is that you're correct, this isn't allowed in both cases

So where does exactly the rail portion ends? Why is it St Pancras rather than Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge or even London Waterloo East in the case of OP's ticket?

On a ticket between Bedford and Zone U12 London, can I break my journey at each of Kentish Town, London St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars before ending my journey at London Bridge?
Similarly, on a ticket between Shoeburyness and Zone U2356 London, can I break my journey at Barking, then West Ham before ending my journey at Limehouse?

 

[Haywain]

On a ticket between Bedford and Zone U12 London, can I break my journey at each of Kentish Town, London St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars before ending my journey at London Bridge?

If you wanted to do that you would buy the cheaper ticket with a destination of London Thameslink.

on a ticket between Shoeburyness and Zone U2356 London, can I break my journey at Barking, then West Ham before ending my journey at Limehouse?

Again, why would you pay extra for underground validity that you are not going to use?

 

[MrJeeves]

So where does exactly the rail portion ends? Why is it St Pancras rather than Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge or even London Waterloo East in the case of OP's ticket?

The Rail portion ends when you move from the Rail portion of the ticket to the Zonal Underground portion of the ticket.

You hit the last London Terminal from the North, St Pancras, then you continue to London Bridge using the Underground validity due to interavailability between Thameslink and Underground.

On a ticket between Bedford and Zone U12 London, can I break my journey at each of Kentish Town, London St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars before ending my journey at London Bridge?
Similarly, on a ticket between Shoeburyness and Zone U2356 London, can I break my journey at Barking, then West Ham before ending my journey at Limehouse?

It is much easier to consider a UZONE ticket as a combined National Rail (to an appropriate London Terminal, or an earlier interchange point for some tickets) and London Underground ticket (covering one single journey within the stated zones on the ticket) rather than as one single ticket. When you hit the last London Terminal, as explained above, the ticket effectively becomes a London Underground ticket.

You cannot break your journey on a London Underground ticket, so when you exit the system then your journey and the ticket's validity ceases. Except in cases where you are interchanging between LU-ticketable services, of course (e.g., walking from National Rail area at London Bridge to the Tube station to continue a journey on London Underground).

 

[miklcct]

The Rail portion ends when you move from the Rail portion of the ticket to the Zonal Underground portion of the ticket.

You hit the last London Terminal from the North, St Pancras, then you continue to London Bridge using the Underground validity due to interavailability between Thameslink and Underground.

It is much easier to consider a UZONE ticket as a combined National Rail (to an appropriate London Terminal, or an earlier interchange point for some tickets) and London Underground ticket (covering one single journey within the stated zones on the ticket) rather than as one single ticket. When you hit the last London Terminal, as explained above, the ticket effectively becomes a London Underground ticket.

The bolded text is what I am questioning here. Can you give me a source why the validity of the "rail portion" ends at a "London Terminal", and how the validity of a route to a "London Terminal" comes into the consideration, despite that the words "London Terminals" aren't printed anywhere on the ticket?

How about using a Southend Central - Zone U2 ticket to change at Barking, Gospel Oak and West Hampstead for Willesden Green as well? West Hampstead is not on the route to an appropriate London Terminal and it is not an earlier interchange point. Can you explain if this route is valid or not?

You can't use that data to determine which stations are in the zones, it's very unreliable.

I also don't think it should be interpreted like that for UZONE tickets, they're a bit of a different beast

If we follow the rules in RSPS5047 literally, which is how journey planner works, according to the data, Zone U2 includes Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park, West Hampstead, Kentish Town, Queen's Park, New Cross Gate, New Cross, Kensington Olympia, Brixton, Elephant & Castle and Vauxhall, however Stratford is not listed.

Therefore if I enter a search from Southend Central to Zone U2 London into a retailer, it will generate journey plans to places like Finsbury Park (by changing at Barking and Harringay) or New Cross Gate (by changing at Limehouse and Shadwell). None of these are on a route to a London Terminal and, because a National Rail retailer only deals with the rail part of the journey, the existence of such journey plans suggest that I can change from the rail to tube at these stations using my U-zone ticket. And in the second case, there is even a DLR transfer between Limehouse and Shadwell as well so it theoretically requires the use of U-zone validity and it should end at Shadwell, but the journey plan still goes to New Cross Gate (which doesn't even have a tube service), and why does the journey planner allow the use of a metro transfer in the middle?

 

[MrJeeves]

I think you need to accept that the realities of computer-based journey planning does not simply end at what is explicitly stated in public-facing documents, and that some data that you realistically would need to use for making these tickets function within a journey planner (such as interavailability!) simply does not exist in any industry-wide distributable electronic format.

Farringdon not being included within Zone U1 is obviously garbage because, in any common sense of the meaning "Zone 1", it quite plainly is. Plus this data obviously can't be used for everything because not all LU locations are contained within RDG data, let alone being associated with the correct Zonal NLC.

 

[miklcct]

I think you need to accept that the realities of computer-based journey planning does not simply end at what is explicitly stated in public-facing documents, and that some data that you realistically would need to use for making these tickets function within a journey planner (such as interavailability!) simply does not exist in any industry-wide distributable electronic format.

Farringdon not being included within Zone U1 is obviously garbage because, in any common sense of the meaning "Zone 1", it quite plainly is. Plus this data obviously can't be used for everything because not all LU locations are contained within RDG data, let alone being associated with the correct Zonal NLC.

The public facing documents are slient on the matter of routing of U-zone tickets, and also some other tickets like Boundary Zone tickets. In particular, it is silent on the OP's initial matter trying to change from train to tube at Waterloo East. A train-tube ticket combined a train ticket and a tube ticket onto one single piece of paper, therefore there must be an interchange station from the train to the tube, yet I can't find any public facing documents saying that which station is the interchange, and the Routeing Guide does not deal with any tube journeys at all.

The only document I can find about the routing of such tickets is RSPS5047 which provides the technical specification of journey planners, and according to that technical specification, the journey should not be validated by a journey planner, solely because Farringdon "does not belong in Zone U1 according to the data".

There is an old thread discussing the validity of a Witham - Zone U23 ticket on a route via Stratford - Willesden Junction - West Brompton where opinions were divided as well.

One said that:

The validity of that ticket is undefined. I believe the late Manual, for the reverse ticket, said that travel was allowed by LU within the relevant zones to any NR railhead, from where you could take any permitted route from the latter station to the destination.

If this is the case, OP's ticket would then be valid because OP is following a permitted route from the origin to Waterloo East. We are now arguing why we can't choose "Waterloo East" as the railhead.

Another said that:

Good luck getting far with that interpretation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact, the interchange station can be determined in most cases, but no, the information is not very clearly stated in the public domain, nor in internal documents, but it can be determined.

In this case, the £30.10 fare is for interchange at Stratford, and possibly at other stations, but definitely not at West Brompton.

without giving any further details how the interchange station is determined (the whole point of this thread), and most importantly, why not at West Brompton.

Another started to quote interavailability (note that the quote text below is now outdated - the current knowledge base specify the interavailability on this route is only for LU/DLR issued tickets, not National Rail issued tickets):

Stratford-Richmond (North London Line) and Willesden Junction-Clapham Junction (West London Line) are both inter-available routes for NR and LUL tickets (Source: iKB, London section).

The £30.10 Off Peak Return from Witham to Zone U23 is the £26.90 Off Peak Return to Stratford with a Zone U23 return add-on (£1.60 each way), as noted in iKB (London section) which is then used on the inter-available routes between Stratford and West Brompton (North London Line to Willesden Junction, change for West London Line).

And another old thread on this very topic as well, where someone replied

If it was a U12 ticket I believe the U-zone validity could already be considered to have started at West Hampstead Thameslink as this is where the interavailability starts. Not sure what the point of the question is though?

without a definite conclusion, and the answer to this will have an effect if I can break my journey or not at Kentish Town holding a ticket from St Albans to Zone U12, intending to travel to Stockwell.

So now there are at least 3 versions of saying:
1. The U-zone validity starts at the moment interavailability is entered.
2. The U-zone validity starts at the departure from the final London terminal.
3. The U-zone validity starts only after changing to the tube, at any station within the covered zones a passenger wish to choose.

I will be grateful if anyone can find me a document supporting which of the above is fact, as I use a lot of U-zone tickets to break journeys at Farringdon where my office is, and need a concrete answer, supported by official documents, if Farringdon can be considered as the tube-train interchange (hence a break of journey is allowed) or if the rail validity does not cover Farringdon at all on my chosen route (hence a break of journey is not allowed).

 

[Adam Williams]

I will be grateful if anyone can find me a document supporting which of the above is fact, as I use a lot of U-zone tickets to break journeys at Farringdon where my office is, and need a concrete answer, supported by official documents

Good luck; I do not believe such a document exists.

 

[miklcct]

Good luck; I do not believe such a document exists.

Thanks. I have just sent an email to the customer enquiries of National Rail for clarification on the interchange point of U-zone tickets and breaks of journeys at Farringdon, citing a few tickets similar to the one posted in this thread and some of other threads I have linked as examples. Hopefully it will result in a detailed specification about the fare product.

 

[Haywain]

Thanks. I have just sent an email to the customer enquiries of National Rail for clarification on the interchange point of U-zone tickets and breaks of journeys at Farringdon, citing a few tickets similar to the one posted in this thread and some of other threads I have linked as examples. Hopefully it will result in a detailed specification about the fare product.

Not the remotest chance of that happening.

 

[MrJeeves]

If this is the case, OP's ticket would then be valid because OP is following a permitted route from the origin to Waterloo East. We are now arguing why we can't choose "Waterloo East" as the railhead.

Waterloo East is a station which can never be reached from OP's origin without the use of a Cross-London transfer or UZONE validity.

Farringdon isn't part of London Group which is why you cannot cross London with Thameslink to reach southern terminals from the north. You cannot dart out and back into a routeing group as part of your local journey. It's a fundamental part of the routeing guide.

So now there are at least 3 versions of saying:
1. The U-zone validity starts at the moment interavailability is entered.
2. The U-zone validity starts at the departure from the final London terminal.
3. The U-zone validity starts only after changing to the tube, at any station within the covered zones a passenger wish to choose.

I see no reason for (1) to make sense unless you are using the interavailability in question. Only if you make use of the interavailability does it make sense, as then you are effectively making an LU journey.

For (2), the journey doesn't necessarily have to be made all the way in to the terminal, so there's a good chance you'd never even get to a terminal such as changing at Stratford to travel to a location such as Farringdon on EL, or St Pauls on Central Line.

(3) is how I see it, including any interavailable service as "tube" too. You can pick wherever NR and LUL-ticketed-services have an interchange in order to make it the most convenient option for you. But the National Rail validity should be used on a permitted route to an appropriate Terminal, and the LUL validity conveys no break of journey rights.

Trying to take the mick with validity on these tickets, or stirring a fuss about how validity should actually be interpreted, is only likely to cause them to be entirely removed from sale or "fixed" to close all possible ambiguity while also making them much less useful than they were prior, just like many of your past adventures have led to.

 

[miklcct]

Waterloo East is a station which can never be reached from OP's origin without the use of a Cross-London transfer or UZONE validity.

Farringdon isn't part of London Group which is why you cannot cross London with Thameslink to reach southern terminals from the north. You cannot dart out and back into a routeing group as part of your local journey. It's a fundamental part of the routeing guide.

Crossing London on Thameslink, without the use of the tube, does not require cross-London transfer validity. There are plenty of tickets without Maltese Cross or U-zone validity which can be used to cross London on Thameslink. For example, a ticket from Brighton to London St Pancras, routed Not Underground, is such a ticket.

The OP is clearly travelling on a permitted route between Kings Lynn and Waterloo East, because it is the shortest route (via Finsbury Park, Farringdon, St Pancras and London Bridge). The Routeing Guide does not even come into question because the shortest route wholly by rail from Kings Lynn to Waterloo East is via Farringdon.

I see no reason for (1) to make sense unless you are using the interavailability in question. Only if you make use of the interavailability does it make sense, as then you are effectively making an LU journey.

For (2), the journey doesn't necessarily have to be made all the way in to the terminal, so there's a good chance you'd never even get to a terminal such as changing at Stratford to travel to a location such as Farringdon on EL, or St Pauls on Central Line.

(3) is how I see it, including any interavailable service as "tube" too. You can pick wherever NR and LUL-ticketed-services have an interchange in order to make it the most convenient option for you. But the National Rail validity should be used on a permitted route to an appropriate Terminal, and the LUL validity conveys no break of journey rights.

Trying to take the mick with validity on these tickets, or stirring a fuss about how validity should actually be interpreted, is only likely to cause them to be entirely removed from sale or "fixed" to close all possible ambiguity while also making them much less useful than they were prior, just like many of your past adventures have led to.

The word "Terminal" (or London Terminal) is the point which I do not agree (and it is not specified in any publicly-available document). Replace it with the word "railhead" I would then agree as it will then cover the case of changing between rail and tube beyond a London Terminal (e.g. Farringdon or Waterloo East), or at a station which is not on a route to a London Terminal (e.g. West Hampstead from Southend).

Therefore I am looking for a clarification from an official source, where the "interchange" should be, and I will follow up after I receive a reply from National Rail. As I have a railcard, buying U-zone tickets are frequently cheaper than paying separately for the tube, especially if the tube travel is during peak hours but the restriction code of the train-tube ticket does not bar the use of the peak period I want to travel.

 

[MrJeeves]

Hopefully all that comes of this is RDG updating the Routeing Guide to include UZONE tickets within the notes about Travelcard routeing.

 

[Adam Williams]

Hopefully all that comes of this is RDG updating the Routeing Guide to include UZONE tickets within the notes about Travelcard routeing.

What makes you think that whoever handles miklcct's email will have any clue what he's on about?

 

[OscarH]

What makes you think that whoever handles miklcct's email will have any clue what he's on about?

I think we've all seen enough responses to their mailbox to know what the chance of them even knowing what a UZONE ticket is

 

[Haywain]

Crossing London on Thameslink, without the use of the tube, does not require cross-London transfer validity.

That depends on the ticket you hold.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps it would be easier if the relevant pricing manager introduces a specific flow Kings Lynn to London Waterloo (East) route City Thameslink Not Underground. While they are at, all do similar for all the other sarf London Terminal Stations.
King Lynn to London Waterloo route City Thameslink & Vauxhall anyone?

 

[MrJeeves]

Perhaps it would be easier if the relevant pricing manager introduces a specific flow Kings Lynn to London Waterloo (East) route City Thameslink Not Underground. While they are at, all do similar for all the other sarf London Terminal Stations.
King Lynn to London Waterloo route City Thameslink & Vauxhall anyone?

As long as we get them for the northern terminals from the south...

Brighton to Fenchurch Street via New Cross Gate, Canonbury, Stratford and Barking?

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Perhaps it would be easier if the relevant pricing manager introduces a specific flow Kings Lynn to London Waterloo (East) route City Thameslink Not Underground

I think they should! Because at the moment there simply isn't a fare valid to Waterloo East other than a Travelcard.

Hopefully it will result in a detailed specification about the fare product

If it does, buy a lottery ticket immediately.

 

[OscarH]

I think they should! Because at the moment there simply isn't a fare valid to Waterloo East other than a Travelcard

I think they should just add it to the interavailability list to be honest, along with any other high frequency NR in zone 1 that isn't, then at least a U1 would be valid for any zone 1 journey