Is MK1 carriage stock on mainline excursions going to need central door locks and retention tanks after march 2023

[yorksrob]

Window bars, while still a complete overreaction to a non-problem, would at least be preferable to sealing of drop lights.

I never ignore in actual fact that road deaths happen in fact I acknowledged it in post #49 where I stated that the number of deaths is not up for debate.

What I also say is the amount of deaths compared to road interactions makes your phrase ‘death trap’ a complete exaggeration.

This whole debate is as a result of a complete overreaction to a non-problem.

 

[43096]

Railtours are as much about hearing the engine, smelling the countryside and the tunnels as they go past, feeling the wind against your face.

They will be destroyed if they're all confined to being in enclosed stock

In what way can't you do that from your seat in Mark 1 or early Mark 2 stock? If you need the wind against your face, that sounds like you want your head out of the window: that rather comes across as the changes to the standards as protecting you from yourself.

Bureacrats with too much time on their hands trying to look busy.

This is all this is.

Try telling that to the relatives of people who have been killed as a result of having their heads out of windows.

You've offered zero evidence that it is that, rather it just comes across as the rantings of someone who cannot (or will not) accept that the world is ever changing and that means safety standards will improve over time.

 

[yorksrob]

In what way can't you do that from your seat in Mark 1 or early Mark 2 stock? If you need the wind against your face, that sounds like you want your head out of the window: that rather comes across as the changes to the standards as protecting you from yourself.


Try telling that to the relatives of people who have been killed as a result of having their heads out of windows.

You've offered zero evidence that it is that, rather it just comes across as the rantings of someone who cannot (or will not) accept that the world is ever changing and that means safety standards will improve over time.

I certainly do not stick my head out of train windows, however it's good to have the opportunity to stand next to one.

How many of these people killed with their heads out of the window, were doing so on supervised railtours ? None I expect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try telling that to the relatives of people who have been killed as a result of having their heads out of windows.

Try telling it to the relatives of people who have been killed climbing, motorcycling, motor racing, wing suit flying...

If people choose a dangerous pastime that is between them and their families. If you want to ban one dangerous pastime, you need to ban all of them, surely?

The only (and very strong) case in my mind for dealing with this issue (by fitting window bars so people can still stand by an open window if they want, just not lean out) is to avoid staff having to be traumatised by seeing and cleaning up the mess, and the ensuing delay caused to others. That aside if people choose to do something dangerous knowing it is dangerous and are injured or killed as a result, that is their problem.

And unlike the mainline preserved lines should be able to mitigate in different ways, e.g. by slewing lines away from obstructions so it would be physically impossible to clout anything, just like leaning out is mostly perfectly safe on the Continent because the loading gauge is a lot wider so there is no way you can end up taking your head off.

 

[43096]

I certainly do not stick my head out of train windows, however it's good to have the opportunity to stand next to one.

How many of these people killed with their heads out of the window, were doing so on supervised railtours ? None I expect.

So that's Ok then... No deaths means it won't ever happen and it shouldn't be mitigated against. I do hope you are not involved in a safety critical role with the attitude you have towards risk.

 

[43096]

Try telling it to the relatives of people who have been killed climbing, motorcycling, motor racing, wing suit flying...

If people choose a dangerous pastime that is between them and their families. If you want to ban one dangerous pastime, you need to ban all of them, surely?

The only (and very strong) case in my mind for dealing with this issue (by fitting window bars so people can still stand by an open window if they want, just not lean out) is to avoid staff having to be traumatised by seeing and cleaning up the mess, and the ensuing delay caused to others. That aside if people choose to do something dangerous knowing it is dangerous and are injured or killed as a result, that is their problem.

You're comparing apples and bananas. Travelling on a train for pleasure is not a fundamentally dangerous pastime, unlike the others you mention. It's only when people decide to do something utterly idiotic and outside the norm that it becomes dangerous. Given the addition of alcohol into the equation, it's pretty easy to see the risk.

 

[DJ_K666]

Out of interest, what makes you say that the existing solutions wouldn't be allowed onto other Mk 1 stock? If any solution is to be found then it would surely need some form of exemption, given that these days you would never build a public transport vehicle like a Mk 1.

If you built something like the mk1 these days it would have a to be monocoque but then you'd also build in the safety features rather than retrofitting them, You could build a modern crashworthy, safe coach that resembled a ml1, after all it's shaped metal that does that, but there's no gap in the market that requires one.

I do believe Hastings Diesels Ltd have their unit(s) fitted with central door locking and its on the door catch rather than the 90s style triangular unit that you used to bang your head on back in the day if you were over 6ft.

I certainly do not stick my head out of train windows, however it's good to have the opportunity to stand next to one.

How many of these people killed with their heads out of the window, were doing so on supervised railtours ? None I expect.

You could make a periscope and look into that while sitting down.

Indeed they do which is why you either have a generator vehicle in the set or have a diesel attached to provide electrical power.

Remember the 'Dreaded' ETHEL on steam tours?

 

[AY1975]

I wonder if secondary door locks and retention tanks might even become mandatory for all trains on heritage lines. I've started a separate thread on this at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-become-mandatory-for-heritage-lines.222864/

 

[doningtonphil]

I think I heard that the existing design which is being implemented for central locking and Retention tanks (as a joint mod)has a flaw that in certain circumstances can mean the doors unlock when a toilet is flushed!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The young enthusiast getting himself killed when sticking his head out of a 442's droplight has been a big cause for this change.

If I recall correctly, one of the factors in that tragic incident was that the droplight in question was in the middle of the vehicle (as opposed to at the very ends) meaning the position of it on curves was quite different to 99% of the other similar windows.

The other relatively recent incident I can think of was on a HST near Bath, and involved a tree branch. Whilst bars on the windows would have prevented this (or at least mitigated the effects somewhat), so would cutting back the lineside vegetation.

I have noticed a prevalence in a minority of enthusiasts, to think that they know the risks well enough, so can choose when it is or isn't safe to stick their head out of the window. I'm not suggesting that this was the case with the 442 incident, but as a general rule this arrogant assumption needs to be discouraged. How to do this effectively is another matter altogether of course.

 

[fgwrich]

As '43096' points out, it isn't necessarily possible to fit the same system to Mk1 doors. If it was easy, it seems likely it would already have been fitted to Mk1s rather than the garden bolt solution.

The BR Central Door Locking system would seem a sensible standard to use. It can be (and has been by GWR among others) modified to support selective door opening, which uses modified control panels and a wiring change on the vehicle: the cabling between vehicles is unchanged and SDO and non-SDO vehicles can work together.

Just to bring this point up again, it is possible to fit the BR CDL system to Mk1s - this is what LSL has started to do with their fleet of Mk1s, utilising parts taken from scrapped Greater Anglia and EMR / EMT Mk3s. The internal CDL system has been painted in a mock wood style to match the rest of the wooden vestibule.

3148

Mk1 FO 3148 heads north past the village of Eastdon, near Dawlish Warren in the consist of: 1Z28 16:40 Kingswear to Bristol Temple Meads "The English Riviera Express" 13/06/21

shed83a.smugmug.com

I have noticed a prevalence in a minority of enthusiasts, to think that they know the risks well enough, so can choose when it is or isn't safe to stick their head out of the window. I'm not suggesting that this was the case with the 442 incident, but as a general rule this arrogant assumption needs to be discouraged. How to do this effectively is another matter altogether of course.

There has indeed been several cases of enthusiasts sticking their heads out of windows in the past decade - Pathfinder / Riviera Trains were severely told off a few years ago after a tour with a 37 or two had a number of enthusiasts sticking their heads out and "flailing" on the mainline. I believe it led to a number of passengers being banned from travelling on Pathfinder Tours again, while EMR had a number of issues up to this year with enthusiasts sticking their heads out of the windows of the Mk3s and filming themselves doing it in the last few months of the HSTs - leading to at least one diagram being cancelled and a 222 being called out to complete the rest of the day. It is one reason why there wasn't a proper Farewell type tour (though there was one in the works) - the modified training diagram that did run as a tour had EMR staff walk up and down the train and monitor the vestibules.

 

[AY1975]

OK that would certainly not be safe. Kind of reminds me of that problem thdc141 pacers had where the brakes would come on when the toilet flushed.

And the Class 156 Sprinters when they were new, where passengers would often mistake the red "passcom" handle beneath the toilet bowl (which was positioned there for ease of use by disabled people) for the flush!

 

[DJ_K666]

And the Class 156 Sprinters when they were new, where passengers would often mistake the red "passcom" handle beneath the toilet bowl (which was positioned there for ease of use by disabled people) for the flush!

Like in that episode of the IT crowd hehe. I bet that was a real frustration for train crews at the time.

 

[Bikeman78]

If I recall correctly, one of the factors in that tragic incident was that the droplight in question was in the middle of the vehicle (as opposed to at the very ends) meaning the position of it on curves was quite different to 99% of the other similar windows.

The other relatively recent incident I can think of was on a HST near Bath, and involved a tree branch. Whilst bars on the windows would have prevented this (or at least mitigated the effects somewhat), so would cutting back the lineside vegetation.

I have noticed a prevalence in a minority of enthusiasts, to think that they know the risks well enough, so can choose when it is or isn't safe to stick their head out of the window. I'm not suggesting that this was the case with the 442 incident, but as a general rule this arrogant assumption needs to be discouraged. How to do this effectively is another matter altogether of course.

I've simply stopped doing railtours. I can't be bothered any more. The last one I did several years ago had a SPAD and got back hours late. My other hobby is cycling which ironically is rather less safe than trundling around in a mark 1.