Is Preston (Lancs) to London Underground Zones 1-4 valid via Thameslink?

[redreni]

I have an advance single from Preston (Lancs) to London Underground Zones 1-4.

My destination is Abbey Wood.

Is it permissible to exit at Euston mainline, walk to St Pancras and enter at St Pancras Thameslink to commence my single cross-London journey? Or alternatively, is it permissible to enter at Kings Cross St Pancras tube?

Or am I limited to entering the tube at Euston or Euston Square?

No big deal if it's not permitted, but if it is then I will.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it permissible to exit at Euston mainline, walk to St Pancras and enter at St Pancras Thameslink to commence my single cross-London journey? Or alternatively, is it permissible to enter at Kings Cross St Pancras tube?

Yes

You can't travel to Abbey Wood via Greenwich though, so would need to switch to the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon, Moorgate, Liverpool Street or Whitechapel.

 

[redreni]

Thanks!

Ticket was not accepted by the barrier at St Pancras Thameslink but the lady inspected it and let me through without questioning it.

So that's good.

I'm not sure I understand the limitations on validity of tickets to a London Underground zone now, though. Is walking between Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross allowed as a special case, or is it generally permitted to start the Thameslink/tube/DLR/EL portion of the journey at a station other than the one you arrived at by National Rail?

Or is it allowed on the basis that I could validly have arrived by train from Preston into St Pancras or Kings Cross? Whilst that may be the case for certain tickets, I was using an Avanti Only advance single which had a mandatory reservation printed on it specifying a train to Euston.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure I understand the limitations on validity of tickets to a London Underground zone now, though. Is walking between Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross allowed as a special case, or is it generally permitted to start the Thameslink/tube/DLR/EL portion of the journey at a station other than the one you arrived at by National Rail?

When crossing London, the following applies. Clearly this describes tickets with a Maltese cross rather than tickets to London Underground Zones, but essentially it says, 'enter the underground at a relevant station' for your journey.

Therefore walking connections such as Embankment for Charing Cross, Lancaster Gate for Paddington, Baker Street for Marylebone, Bank for Cannon Street, Kings Cross for Euston, are all reasonable and relevant interchanges.

There is interavailability with London Underground fares on Thameslink through Central London.

Travelling across London with your train ticket

If your journey involves travelling via or across London to connect with another National Rail service, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on London Underground, DLR, Thameslink or Elizabeth line services between the relevant stations.

Your ticket will be marked with a cross ( + ) sign.

Tickets displaying this sign are valid for travel between any 2 stations shown in the list below, appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.

Abbey Wood
Aldgate
Amersham
Baker Street
Balham
Bank
Barking
Battersea Power Station
Blackfriars
Blackhorse Road
Brixton
Canada Water
Cannon Street
Charing Cross
Ealing Broadway
Edgware Road
Elephant & Castle
Embankment
Euston
Euston Square
Farringdon
Finsbury Park
Greenwich (DLR)
Highbury & Islington
Kensington Olympia
Kentish Town
Kings Cross St Pancras
Lancaster Gate
Lewisham (DLR)
Limehouse
Liverpool Street
London Bridge
Marylebone
Moorgate
Old Street
Paddington
Queens Park
Richmond
Seven Sisters
Shadwell
Shepherds Bush
Southwark
Stratford
Stratford International (DLR)
Tottenham Hale
Tower Hill
Upminster
Vauxhall
Victoria
Walthamstow Central
Waterloo
West Brompton
West Ham
West Hampstead
Whitechapel
Wimbledon
Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)
Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

 

[redreni]

Ah, thank you. That's interesting.

I've just seen that the OSI list for PAYG includes exiting at Euston NR and entering at St Pancras NR. It does not include exiting at Euston NR and entering at Kings Cross St Pancras LU, though - the only LU stations listed against Euston NR are Euston and Euston Square.

https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/interchanging-trains/osi-list/

I appreciate the OSI list is not determinative and arguably not directly relevant to a passenger travelling on a paper ticket, although I should have thought if something is a permitted OSI then it must be capable of forming part of a reasonable route for a cross-London transfer or a through journey to a LU/DLR/EL station, so I'm fairly happy that my ticket was rightly accepted.

Is it generally accepted, though, that there are reasonable routes you can take that involve 'unofficial' out-of-station interchanges? Surely if an OSI is part of a reasonable route, it should be on the list so that PAYG passengers can use it and be charged one fare?

 

[Watershed]

When crossing London, the following applies. Clearly this describes tickets with a Maltese cross rather than tickets to London Underground Zones, but essentially it says, 'enter the underground at a relevant station' for your journey.

Therefore walking connections such as Embankment for Charing Cross, Lancaster Gate for Paddington, Baker Street for Marylebone, Bank for Cannon Street, Kings Cross for Euston, are all reasonable and relevant interchanges.

There is interavailability with London Underground fares on Thameslink through Central London.

I don't think these rules apply to U Zone tickets. I'd regard these tickets as equivalent to outboundary Travelcards insofar as they're effectively two tickets in one (unless routed "via Underground/DLR"). They're constituted of a National Rail single/return, plus an Underground single/return valid for any journey in the specified Zone(s), i.e. equivalent to the paper ticket you could buy at an LU POM.

The only difficulty lies in identifying what the intended validity of the National Rail portion is, as there will sometimes be multiple plausible origins/destinations for the validity.

For the Underground portion of the ticket, there's no question about validity as you can undertake any journey within the stated Zone(s) on any of the covered operators/modes (i.e. Underground, DLR, and National Rail services over any interavailable NR/LU routes).

 

[TUC]

When I enter Preston (Lancs)-London U1-4 into BrFares it shows no fares available?

 

[redreni]

When I enter Preston (Lancs)-London U1-4 into BrFares it shows no fares available?

Nevertheless I managed to buy it. From memory I think TrainSplit adds on the LU portion to (in this case) Avanti's fare to Euston.

 

[JonathanH]

For the Underground portion of the ticket, there's no question about validity as you can undertake any journey within the stated Zone(s) on any of the covered operators/modes (i.e. Underground, DLR, and National Rail services over any interavailable NR/LU routes).

In that case it is unambiguously valid for entry at the Thameslink barriers at St Pancras International.

Would the barriers at Warren Street, which is not a Maltese Cross Station but is within walking distance of Euston, accept such a ticket where London U1-4 is the destination, rather than origin?

 

[MikeWh]

Ah, thank you. That's interesting.

I've just seen that the OSI list for PAYG includes exiting at Euston NR and entering at St Pancras NR. It does not include exiting at Euston NR and entering at Kings Cross St Pancras LU, though - the only LU stations listed against Euston NR are Euston and Euston Square.

https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/interchanging-trains/osi-list/

I appreciate the OSI list is not determinative and arguably not directly relevant to a passenger travelling on a paper ticket, although I should have thought if something is a permitted OSI then it must be capable of forming part of a reasonable route for a cross-London transfer or a through journey to a LU/DLR/EL station, so I'm fairly happy that my ticket was rightly accepted.

Is it generally accepted, though, that there are reasonable routes you can take that involve 'unofficial' out-of-station interchanges? Surely if an OSI is part of a reasonable route, it should be on the list so that PAYG passengers can use it and be charged one fare?

Am I missing something. You wanted to arrive at Euston and continue from St Pancras International on Thamelink? That is permitted by the OSIs as they stand.

 

[redreni]

Am I missing something. You wanted to arrive at Euston and continue from St Pancras International on Thamelink? That is permitted by the OSIs as they stand.

I was asking if it was permitted to do that on a paper ticket Preston to U1234.

I also asked if it was permitted to exit at Euston NR and enter the underground at Kings Cross St Pancras.

I've done it now so there's no live or urgent query, I was just curious as I didn't understand the answer or the reasoning behind it.

Watershed's answer is clear enough, although I note he hasn't said anything about whether LU would actually accept such a ticket for entry at a station that is not the station where the NR portion of the journey ended, nor connected to that station by an official OSI, nor on a logical route.

My reason for wanting to do this was to take advantage of the nice weather to walk up to Camden and then along Regents Canal to the Waitrose round the back of Kings Cross, before resuming my journey home. While I see no harm in this, I was conscious it may not be how the ticket is intended to be used, hence the question.

 

[TUC]

I was asking if it was permitted to do that on a paper ticket Preston to U1234.

I also asked if it was permitted to exit at Euston NR and enter the underground at Kings Cross St Pancras.

I've done it now so there's no live or urgent query, I was just curious as I didn't understand the answer or the reasoning behind it.

Watershed's answer is clear enough, although I note he hasn't said anything about whether LU would actually accept such a ticket for entry at a station that is not the station where the NR portion of the journey ended, nor connected to that station by an official OSI, nor on a logical route.

My reason for wanting to do this was to take advantage of the nice weather to walk up to Camden and then along Regents Canal to the Waitrose round the back of Kings Cross, before resuming my journey home. While I see no harm in this, I was conscious it may not be how the ticket is intended to be used, hence the question.

If that's your intent, wouldn't Contactless be cheaper than paying for the U1-4 add-on?

 

[cool110]

When I enter Preston (Lancs)-London U1-4 into BrFares it shows no fares available?

That's the wrong destination, London Zones X-X are for Travelcards

Nevertheless I managed to buy it. From memory I think TrainSplit adds on the LU portion to (in this case) Avanti's fare to Euston.

You got the one to Zone UXXXX* Londn, which does exist.

 

[Watershed]

Watershed's answer is clear enough, although I note he hasn't said anything about whether LU would actually accept such a ticket for entry at a station that is not the station where the NR portion of the journey ended, nor connected to that station by an official OSI, nor on a logical route.

In theory the ticket should be printed with encoding such that it automatically works the LU etc. barriers in the relevant zones. But even if this doesn't happen (e.g. due to a fault on the part of the retailer or the TVM, or the magstripe becoming demagnetised or corrupted) you should have no difficulties being let through the barriers manually.

I've used U Zone tickets for a variety of weird and wonderful journeys and have been let through barriers without issue plenty of times. In fact, I tend to find that most LU gateline staff aren't particularly interested in what, exactly, your paper ticket says. If it has a Maltese cross or says "Underground" on it, that generally seems to suffice.

Obviously for NR barrier staff it's a bit of a different story - especially so at the Thameslink core stations, where I often see RPIs or "detail-oriented" gateline staff. But the validity is the same and I've similarly been let through every time, albeit sometimes after a short explanation of what it is I'm doing.

My reason for wanting to do this was to take advantage of the nice weather to walk up to Camden and then along Regents Canal to the Waitrose round the back of Kings Cross, before resuming my journey home. While I see no harm in this, I was conscious it may not be how the ticket is intended to be used, hence the question.

I don't think there's any compulsion to continue the journey immediately with a U Zone ticket, even if the National Rail portion of the ticket is an Advance.

 

[redreni]

If that's your intent, wouldn't Contactless be cheaper than paying for the U1-4 add-on?

Yes, it was an oversight. I had a reason for wanting a through ticket on the outbound leg but not so much on the return leg. But it was just easier to use the same origin and destination (in reverse, of course) for the return leg.

Although in fairness, given the probability of a delay of over 15 minutes occurring on a journey on Avanti, it could easily have worked out cheaper.

 

[MikeWh]

I also asked if it was permitted to exit at Euston NR and enter the underground at Kings Cross St Pancras.

It probably is permitted using a U-zone paper ticket. When using PAYG it would be treated as two journeys. Apart from the Piccadilly line, everything else at KXSP can be found at Euston or Euston Square, and the Piccadilly line can be accessed by changing at either Leicester Square or KXSP.

 

[poffle]

TFL have given advice not to use Euston to access tube services at times due to planned work. They recommend using Warren St/Euston Sq.

"EUSTON UNDERGROUND STATION: From Monday 8 January until mid April, there will be a reduced escalator service at Euston. Please avoid entering, or interchanging at, Euston during morning peak hours (between 0730 and 1000). Access to the southbound Northern line (City branch) and Victoria line platforms will be via a spiral staircase. To prevent overcrowding, the subway between the Overground platforms and the Tube will be closed. At busy times there will be a queue to enter for any services at Euston Underground station."

Euston Underground Station

Live arrivals for Euston Underground Station stop.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[redreni]

TFL have given advice not to use Euston to access tube services at times due to planned work. They recommend using Warren St/Euston Sq.

"EUSTON UNDERGROUND STATION: From Monday 8 January until mid April, there will be a reduced escalator service at Euston. Please avoid entering, or interchanging at, Euston during morning peak hours (between 0730 and 1000). Access to the southbound Northern line (City branch) and Victoria line platforms will be via a spiral staircase. To prevent overcrowding, the subway between the Overground platforms and the Tube will be closed. At busy times there will be a queue to enter for any services at Euston Underground station."

Euston Underground Station

Live arrivals for Euston Underground Station stop.

tfl.gov.uk

They were announcing this at Euston when I was waiting for my train to Preston. They didn't actually suggest Warren Street as an alternative in the announcements.

If they are asking people to use Warren Street then I must say I think it would be both counterproductive in terms of getting commuters to play ball, and unfair to anyone using PAYG and following the advice, if they didn't make Euston-Warren Street an OSI for fares purposes (even if only temporarily). Maybe they have.

Warren Street is closer to Euston than Euston Square is, so presumably the sole basis for not having it on the OSI list to begin with is that anyone wanting the Northern or Victoria lines would use Euston. That reasoning falls away pretty quickly as soon as you start making platforms inaccessible and having intermittent closures of Euston LU.

 

[Hadders]

TFL have given advice not to use Euston to access tube services at times due to planned work. They recommend using Warren St/Euston Sq.

"EUSTON UNDERGROUND STATION: From Monday 8 January until mid April, there will be a reduced escalator service at Euston. Please avoid entering, or interchanging at, Euston during morning peak hours (between 0730 and 1000). Access to the southbound Northern line (City branch) and Victoria line platforms will be via a spiral staircase. To prevent overcrowding, the subway between the Overground platforms and the Tube will be closed. At busy times there will be a queue to enter for any services at Euston Underground station."

Euston Underground Station

Live arrivals for Euston Underground Station stop.

tfl.gov.uk

A few days ago I found myself looking up travel times from Finsbury Park to Euston ont he TfL website.

It was suggesting Victoria Line to Kings Cross then a bus to Euston.
When I specifically said 'exclude buses' it suggested Victoria Line to Kings Cross then H&C/Circle to Euston Square.

Warren Street is closer to Euston than Euston Square

It isn't.

 

[MikeWh]

Euston-Warren Street an OSI for fares purposes (even if only temporarily). Maybe they have.

They may well have. It happened in the past when Tottenham Court Road was part closed for rebuilding. That was an EOSI (emergency).

It's a bit of a faff, but if walking from Euston to Warren Street you go via Euston Square (in and out) then the journey will be joined as there is an OSI between Euston Square and Warren Street.

 

[fandroid]

Warren Street is closer to Euston than Euston Square is, so presumably the sole basis for not having it on the OSI list to begin with is that anyone wanting the Northern or Victoria lines would use Euston. That reasoning falls away pretty quickly as soon as you start making platforms inaccessible and having intermittent closures of Euston LU.

It is not. There's University College Hospital between the two stations and Warren Street station is further west than Euston Square station which is west of Euston station.