Is rail travel in the North really that bad compared to the South?

[anti-pacer]

Generally speaking, in terms of stock, stations, train loadings, etc?

It would be interesting to get a Southerner's perspective on this too.

 

[yorkie]

Not really, can you elaborate what you mean?

 

[anti-pacer]

Not really, can you elaborate what you mean?

1) Age and quality of rolling stock
2) Cleanliness of it (inside and out)
3) Frequency of services
4) Quality of stations
5) Overcrowding

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When I lived down south my local station had, at worst, four 4-car trains each hour, each way. The local station had information screens that worked, a ticket office open 14 hours a day, seven days a week, with full CCTV coverage and covered seating areas. Electric multiple units were built specially for the line in the late 80s, but could be quite full at peak time.

Now I live in Greater Manchester, my local line has, at best, two 4-car trains each hour, each way. The local station has a ticket office open less than seven hours a day and for only six days a week, no CCTV, information screens or covered seating areas. Diesel multiple units were built in the mid to late 80s and can be quite full at peak time.

 

[tbtc]

We've been over this plenty of times, and everyone thinks that their local area has the worst service.

People in Manchester/ Leeds complain about the age of their DMUs, but then don't seem to appreciate their heavily subsidised fares.

And then we all pick the worst examples of stock - do the FCC/ SN 313s trump the Northern 142s? (etc)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And then we all pick the worst examples of stock - do the FCC/ SN 313s trump the Northern 142s? (etc)

In that case, despite the 313s being significantly older, yes they are considerably better. The 313s have proper bogies for a start, and though they are old- the refurbishments carried out on them have done a pretty good job of masking this. Not to mention that although the 142s were built a decade later, they were based upon a bus (and not a particularly good one at that) that was designed round about the same time as the 313s anyway. Fares in the North may be cheaper, but the service quality is much lower and significantly, so are incomes.

 

[Eagle]

Um. We have Pacers in the south too.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think it's a case of North vs South but more a case of Network South East vs Rest of England and Wales.

FGW and ATW have Pacers and 150s as well. While EMT don't have Pacers or 150s they use 153s on services which should really be operated by the former.

And then we all pick the worst examples of stock - do the FCC/ SN 313s trump the Northern 142s? (etc)

Apart from a small toilet what real advantages does a Pacer have over a 313?

 

[Bevan Price]

As a northerner now making only occasional visits to London outside Monday - Friday peak hours, I would say there are good & bad parts in both areas. Many northern cities are served by 2 car dmus which were mostly inadequate when built, and even less adequate following increases in the number of passengers. Many London area local services are at least 3 or 4 car emus. In terms of train quality, I find little to choose between Merseyrail 507/508s, and similar age stock in the London area. And London does not have Pacers......... But it does have longitudinal seating in London Overground emus, which I also dislike.

Little to choose between stations in north & south - again some good, some bad, and a few that I would hesitate to use at night....

Sunday services around London are generally better than those in the north, where DfT, NR & TOCs still seemingly fail to recognise (or care ???) that Sunday is now a major shopping day.

The worst part of London is the Underground, where even at off-peak times, many services in the central area can be horrendously overcrowded - if not in a hurry, I find bus travel preferable to using the Underground.

 

[Eagle]

FGW and ATW have Pacers and 150s as well. While EMT don't have Pacers or 150s they use 153s on services which should really be operated by the former.

There are 150s and 153s operating on some ex-NSE routes though (namely Marston Vale and Reading to Basingstoke).

Not trying to pick holes though

 

[tbtc]

Apart from a small toilet what real advantages does a Pacer have over a 313?

The OP said:

1) Age and quality of rolling stock

313s are older than Pacers.

I don't think it's a case of North vs South but more a case of Network South East vs Rest of England and Wales.

There are 150s and 153s operating on some ex-NSE routes though (namely Marston Vale and Reading to Basingstoke).

Not trying to pick holes though

...plus the GA 153s?

 

[northwichcat]

Reading to Basingstoke

Ah yes the cascaded 3 car 150s introduced for extra capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

313s are older than Pacers.

If we use the average life expectancies of EMUs and DMUs then 313s should expect to last another 3 years, while for 142s only another 2.

 

[tbtc]

If we use the average life expectancies of EMUs and DMUs then 313s should expect to last another 3 years, while for 142s only another 2.

As I said, I'm just quoting things in the terms that the OP asked

 

[61653 HTAFC]

313s are older than Pacers.

But if you were to show the average member of the public the following 2 photos:

and ask them which they thought was older (and indeed which looked more comfortable!) I think we know what they'd say!

 

[anti-pacer]

But if you were to show the average member of the public the following 2 photos:

and ask them which they thought was older (and indeed which looked more comfortable!) I think we know what they'd say!

The 313, easily.

 

[starrymarkb]

Plus in the south are there not some 5 hour 150 runs?

 

[Eagle]

Great Malvern to Weymouth, you're thinking of, which is definitely not the southeast...

 

[DarloRich]

Generally speaking, in terms of stock, stations, train loadings, etc?

It would be interesting to get a Southerner's perspective on this too.

Simple answer - Yes,

next question.

 

[valenta]

I feel that the locations specified are too broad to give an accurate answer, whether it is worse or better varies between rail companies.

 

[Muzer]

We've been over this plenty of times, and everyone thinks that their local area has the worst service.

I dunno about that - I rather like my local service around the Southampton area.

I haven't been on many trains in the North (my most frequent one is probably the Manchester to Crewe line), but I do find that in general everything was slightly worse. More graffiti on trains, less comfortable trains, more dirty trains, far, far fewer facilities at stations. Not anything I'd be unhappy with using on a regular basis in general, but definitely less satisfying.

But outside the NSE area, you get the same sort of thing. It really is commuter trains for Londoners (and a few nearby services that have the same stock and TOC) that are nicest, *ON THE WHOLE*.

 

[mister-sparky]

In terms of loadings, trains in London will always be busier than those in say Manchester or Leeds. For example, peak weekday commuter trains from London termini are 12 coaches full and standing alot of the time. In the north, (in my experience but do correct me if I'm wrong!) a max of maybe 3 or 4 coaches full and standing. But give the 12 coaches to the north and they'd be carrying around dust in the peaks mostly, 5 or 6 coaches would be plenty. Whereas London commuter trains need to be longer than 12 coaches, not shorter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....It really is commuter trains for Londoners (and a few nearby services that have the same stock and TOC) that are nicest, *ON THE WHOLE*.

That's because train fares for London commuters are ALOT more expensive than those up north. It's actually quite shocking how much cheaper fares up north are.

 

[anti-pacer]

I dunno about that - I rather like my local service around the Southampton area.

I haven't been on many trains in the North (my most frequent one is probably the Manchester to Crewe line), but I do find that in general everything was slightly worse. More graffiti on trains, less comfortable trains, more dirty trains, far, far fewer facilities at stations. Not anything I'd be unhappy with using on a regular basis in general, but definitely less satisfying.

But outside the NSE area, you get the same sort of thing. It really is commuter trains for Londoners (and a few nearby services that have the same stock and TOC) that are nicest, *ON THE WHOLE*.

Dirty inside or out? Not seen much graffiti on trains up here, but have in the London area.

 

[bicbasher]

The 313s look nicer, but at least the Pacers have a toilet. A passenger on a Southern West Coastway 313 service may have to cross their legs for a while.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 313s look nicer, but ... the Pacers are a toilet. ...

Fixed that for you

 

[Muzer]

Dirty inside or out? Not seen much graffiti on trains up here, but have in the London area.

I've seen a lot of scratched windows (scratched as in someone's scratched their initials into them) - and as for dirtiness, I've seen sticky floors/seats, etc., quite a lot.

 

[yorksrob]

In answer to the OP I'd say no.

The network in the North is as pleasurable to travel on as the network in the South. Rail is just a superior form of transport in Britain.

 

[northwichcat]

Plus in the south are there not some 5 hour 150 runs?

Great Malvern to Weymouth, you're thinking of, which is definitely not the southeast...

And don't the 150s used on those journeys usually have 2+2 seating, armrests and tables, making it more like a typical refurbished class 156 interior?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dirty inside or out? Not seen much graffiti on trains up here, but have in the London area.

Despite many of Northern trains not being loved by passengers and most not having CCTV, graffiti either internally or externally seems to be rare.

However, one that did get vandalised was a loaned SWT 158 while stabled at Scarborough overnight, while led Northern to be over cautious about where the ATW 150s which they loaned at a later date got used.

 

[edwin_m]

And don't the 150s used on those journeys usually have 2+2 seating, armrests and tables, making it more like a typical refurbished class 156 interior?

I used to use these every few weeks to get from Nottingham to Bradford-on-Avon with one change at Gloucester/Cheltenham. They were fairly reliably 2+2 150s or 158s until the ex-Centro units started appearing, when the prospect of 3+2 seating for 1.5hrs made us switch to the Voyager option despite having to change at New Street and Bristol.

I think each of these workings is overtaken by a Voyager while it makes the detour into Gloucester, so rather than enduring the whole journey anyone with a suitable ticket should be able to alight at Cheltenham and rejoin the same train at Bristol or vice versa.

 

[tbtc]

Plus in the south are there not some 5 hour 150 runs?

Great Malvern to Weymouth, you're thinking of, which is definitely not the southeast...

In fairness there are only two such journeys a day (12:50 and 14:50) and its not the kind of journey that many people do from end to end (compared to, say, Brighton to Portsmouth on a 313).

Great Malvern to Weymouth is still double the number of services from Middlesbrough to Carlisle (the 16:32) though.

Then again I could claim that the London Underground stock is unsuitable for a journey like Cockfosters to Heathrow (around seventy minutes, almost as long as London to Birmingham takes), but I think most of us accept that the 1973 stock is good enough for most passengers (and anyone doing the journey from end to end is going to be in a significant minority).

 

[yorksrob]

Having travelled from Weymouth to Bath recently, I was very impressed with the Great Western 150's. They show that with the right refurbishment, a 150 can be made perfectly suitable for some quite long journey's.