Is standing in the First Class vestibule in contactless zone fare evasion

[callumd]

Hi all,

I’m a frequent traveller from Stratford to London Liverpool Street and I use Greater Anglia trains for the 10 min journey everyday.

I tap in with my contactless card at Stratford and out at Liverpool Street.

9 out of 10 trains which stop in the morning have no First Class, but sometimes there are trains which come from Norwich which has the first class carriages at the front and the rear.

Being the opportunistic commuter I am, I like to stand at the very front of the train in order to be the first off and avoid the insanity which is the barriers at Liverpool Street in the morning.

When you board these trains there is a vestibule in the first class carriage which is isolated from the first class seating area by two button operated doors. So for two years whenever I encounter one of these trains I will stand in this vestibule and never sit in any of the seats.

Then one day a revenue inspector walks through the carriage and says “you’re lucky you have me today because some of my colleagues would give you a penalty fare just for standing in the first class categorised carriage. These passengers pay more for the privilege to exit a non crowded carriage at the front of the train. And being here prevents them from doing that.”

Apart from the condescending tone of the inspector I’m glad I didn’t get a penalty fare, but I started to think if I did get a penalty fare - is what he is saying true and would I be able to fight it? Especially given I was never afforded the option to buy a first class ticket as I tapped in and I was not occupying a seat.

Will be interesting to see what any of you think about this and if what he is saying is true!

Thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

Yep even the vestibules of a first class carriage are for first class ticket holders only I'm afraid to say! So if you don't have a valid first class ticket then you could be charged a penalty fare. I wouldn't necessarily go with the argument "first class passengers pay for a less crowded exit from the train" as the explanation but the general thrust is correct.

 

[bcarmicle]

Especially given I was never afforded the option to buy a first class ticket as I tapped in

Unfortunately this is not relevant. As it happens, first class tickets are available for sale so you could have purchased one at Stratford, but even if they were not available, you would still not be permitted to use the first class area.

 

[Titfield]

I travelled a lot on GA services from Liverpool Street to Cambridge in peak times and this was said to me on a couple of occasions when I, not paying attention, used the first class vestibule. After the second polite warning I took more care.

 

[callumd]

Thanks all! I’ll be sure to drag myself back to cattle class when one of these trains turn up.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all,

I’m a frequent traveller from Stratford to London Liverpool Street and I use Greater Anglia trains for the 10 min journey everyday.

[…]

Apart from the condescending tone of the inspector I’m glad I didn’t get a penalty fare, but I started to think if I did get a penalty fare - is what he is saying true and would I be able to fight it? Especially given I was never afforded the option to buy a first class ticket as I tapped in and I was not occupying a seat.

Will be interesting to see what any of you think about this and if what he is saying is true!

Thanks

Isn't it well known that Oyster, and more latterly TfL Contactless, have never had any functionality to deal with first class fares? So that’s probably a straw you can’t clutch.

But aren’t the Norwich trains shown as set down only at Stratford in the printed timetable, and you shouldn’t be getting on them anyway? Is it no longer enforced?

 

[hexagon789]

But aren’t the Norwich trains shown as set down only at Stratford in the printed timetable, and you shouldn’t be getting on them anyway?

Definitely set-down only in the timetable, so shouldn't be advertised on the platform at Stratford but no idea how well GA intend or do intend it to be enforced.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

I’m a frequent traveller from Stratford to London Liverpool Street and I use Greater Anglia trains for the 10 min journey everyday.

I tap in with my contactless card at Stratford and out at Liverpool Street.

9 out of 10 trains which stop in the morning have no First Class, but sometimes there are trains which come from Norwich which has the first class carriages at the front and the rear.

Being the opportunistic commuter I am, I like to stand at the very front of the train in order to be the first off and avoid the insanity which is the barriers at Liverpool Street in the morning.

When you board these trains there is a vestibule in the first class carriage which is isolated from the first class seating area by two button operated doors. So for two years whenever I encounter one of these trains I will stand in this vestibule and never sit in any of the seats.

Then one day a revenue inspector walks through the carriage and says “you’re lucky you have me today because some of my colleagues would give you a penalty fare just for standing in the first class categorised carriage. These passengers pay more for the privilege to exit a non crowded carriage at the front of the train. And being here prevents them from doing that.”

Apart from the condescending tone of the inspector I’m glad I didn’t get a penalty fare, but I started to think if I did get a penalty fare - is what he is saying true and would I be able to fight it? Especially given I was never afforded the option to buy a first class ticket as I tapped in and I was not occupying a seat.

Will be interesting to see what any of you think about this and if what he is saying is true!

Thanks

I have known staff (and this is back in BR days) stand in the vestibules of the start of the 1st class carriages precisely to prevent standard class passengers walking through to the front to save themselves a few minutes walking along the platform after the train arrives at the London terminus

Trains are and were organised so that the first class is usually at the 'platform buffers' end at the London terminus for precisely this reason, so a 1st calss passenger has less far to walk from their luxury conveyance - a perk of the 1st class ticket for which you pay a hefty premium...

Good to see traditional standards still being upheld in a few places

 

[callumd]

Isn't it well known that Oyster, and more latterly TfL Contactless, have never had any functionality to deal with first class fares? So that’s probably a straw you can’t clutch.

But aren’t the Norwich trains shown as set down only at Stratford in the printed timetable, and you shouldn’t be getting on them anyway? Is it no longer enforced?

They are not advertised on the timetable no, however if you get on the platform - they appear on the platform dot matrix displays.

I would argue that you can’t penalise someone for following the signs at Stratford which say “Trains to Liverpool Street” and see an advertised train on the platform display and get on it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would argue that you can penalise someone for following the signs at Stratford which say “Trains to Liverpool Street” and see an advertised train on the platform display and get on it.

There is no stipulated penalty for boarding a train which is set down only with an otherwise valid ticket.

 

[Titfield]

Definitely set-down only in the timetable, so shouldn't be advertised on the platform at Stratford but no idea how well GA intend or do intend it to be enforced.

I have seen and heard the guard give the odd "bxllxcking" for this but not seen any enforcement action.

 

[The exile]

Definitely set-down only in the timetable, so shouldn't be advertised on the platform at Stratford but no idea how well GA intend or do intend it to be enforced.

Thing is that at Stratford, Clapham Junction etc an up train with passengers on it can only be going to one place so most people wouldn’t be looking at the screens.

 

[alholmes]

Thing is that at Stratford, Clapham Junction etc an up train with passengers on it can only be going to one place so most people wouldn’t be looking at the screens.

At Stratford the screens have always advertised the services as being for Liverpool Street. Once, many years ago, I boarded a Norwich - Liv Street service there in the morning peak, when they were loco hauled, and bought a breakfast bap & coffee from the buffet car for the 8-9 minute journey.

 

[WesternLancer]

At Stratford the screens have always advertised the services as being for Liverpool Street. Once, many years ago, I boarded a Norwich - Liv Street service there in the morning peak, when they were loco hauled, and bought a breakfast bap & coffee from the buffet car for the 8-9 minute journey.

Would have had a dining car then probably! I guess a bit brief for a full cooked breakfast

 

[weeklycommuter]

How do they decide the difference between standing and walking through? The GTR class 387 trains used for Great Northern Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross services and now for the Southampton to Brighton services have a "first class" section (the only difference with standard class is the antimacassar on the seats) at the wrong end of one of the end carriages so passengers sitting in standard class seats in that end carriage are forced to walk through this "first class" section to access the onboard toilets in that four carriage set. I have complained more than once to GTR about this and this is the number one reason why I want first class removed from all GTR services.

 

[alholmes]

Would have had a dining car then probably! I guess a bit brief for a full cooked breakfast

Yes, there was a dining car, was very tempted to see if I could achieve a full at-seat breakfast from Stratford, but that would’ve been greedy, even by my standards

 

[Western Gaffer]

How do they decide the difference between standing and walking through? The GTR class 387 trains used for Great Northern Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross services and now for the Southampton to Brighton services have a "first class" section (the only difference with standard class is the antimacassar on the seats) at the wrong end of one of the end carriages so passengers sitting in standard class seats in that end carriage are forced to walk through this "first class" section to access the onboard toilets in that four carriage set. I have complained more than once to GTR about this and this is the number one reason why I want first class removed from all GTR services.

I don't follow the logic - you have to walk through first class to reach the toilets so the solution to that 'problem' is removal of first class?

I can understand some justifiable angst if anyone walking through en route to/from toilets was accosted and expected to stump up the higher fare, but does that happen?

 

[swt_passenger]

How do they decide the difference between standing and walking through? The GTR class 387 trains used for Great Northern Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross services and now for the Southampton to Brighton services have a "first class" section (the only difference with standard class is the antimacassar on the seats) at the wrong end of one of the end carriages so passengers sitting in standard class seats in that end carriage are forced to walk through this "first class" section to access the onboard toilets in that four carriage set. I have complained more than once to GTR about this and this is the number one reason why I want first class removed from all GTR services.

Walking through first to get to somewhere else on the train that you can be in has always been ok. The byelaw 19 offence is to ‘remain’ in a first class area.

If they were to move first class to the end, you’d still expect to be able to move between units running in multiple using the end gangways?