Is the class 455 really life expired?

[swt_passenger]

The seats in SWR’s 455s are a long way from ironing boards.

The term wasn’t even in normal usage in rail circles when the SWT conversion was done...

 

[DustyBin]

When they previously were running out of Victoria/London Bridge on Southern, they were very extensively used as 2-car trains at weekends. This was equally ludicrous. I can recall Saturday morning passengers who had waited a while at Forest Hill etc being unable to even get in. Meanwhile every track at Selhurst depot was stuffed with stock for the weekend.

Back in BR days they used to run as single units regularly as I recall, they may have doubled them up in the peaks though. I can remember as a young child in (I’m guessing) the very early 90s going from London Bridge to Victoria (or possibly the other way around) on a 456 and thinking how modern it was. At the time the Hayes branch and Catford loop were operated by EPBs to put it in perspective (they were the usual lines I’d travel on back then, I wish I could remember more of the EPBs!). I know this is the 455 thread but could the 456s finds a new home? Are they still able to work with Southern’s 455s?

 

[JonathanH]

The seats in SWR’s 455s are a long way from ironing boards.

The term wasn’t even in normal usage in rail circles when the SWT conversion was done...

I think the reason for this is that the tops of the seats in 455s (including the slightly different seats in the Southern units) are rounded. I suspect that the 'ironing board' terminology in part comes initially from the shape of the tops of the modern seats rather than actually the comfort of them. Clearly it has moved on to wider use as a nickname for an uncomfortable seat.

However, more to the point, the seats in 455s are somewhat better than what was fitted before.

I know this is the 455 thread but could the 456s finds a new home? Are they still able to work with Southern’s 455s?

There would appear to be no reason why the 456s couldn't still work with Southern 455s although I assume there would be some issue about compatability of passenger information systems. However, Southern's 455s mainly work on 8-car routes and so the 456s would be of no real use. Moreover, with 321s going for scrap, there would appear to be no reason why 456s would need to be retained in service.

 

[Domh245]

There would appear to be no reason why the 456s couldn't still work with Southern 455s although I assume there would be some issue about compatability of passenger information systems. However, Southern's 455s mainly work on 8-car routes and so the 456s would be of no real use. Moreover, with 321s going for scrap, there would appear to be no reason why 456s would need to be retained in service.

During their introduction at SWT, you couldn't put green and red (anything) together in service, only in emergencies, which would imply that the PIS incompatibility was fairly significant (possibly something relating to how emergency call for helps were/weren't processed rings a bell?) but certainly not insurmountable to revert back I'd have thought. Like you say though, unlikely to move back for the reasons given, and to boot I'm led to believe that the 455s are increasingly less utilised now (pre-covid) so even more reason not to go back

 

[DustyBin]

During their introduction at SWT, you couldn't put green and red (anything) together in service, only in emergencies, which would imply that the PIS incompatibility was fairly significant (possibly something relating to how emergency call for helps were/weren't processed rings a bell?) but certainly not insurmountable to revert back I'd have thought. Like you say though, unlikely to move back for the reasons given, and to boot I'm led to believe that the 455s are increasingly less utilised now (pre-covid) so even more reason not to go back

What were/are they using in their place? (Genuine question, I’m interested!).

 

[Speed1283]

Do I think the 455s are feeling outdated now? Yes.

But do I feel that the best use for an order for 750 new-build carriages is replacing them? Absolutely not...

Apologies but I would respectfully disagree, new build will offer many advantages.
1) increased capacity per vehicle
2) faster dwell times including door cycle times +better acceleration.
3) Air conditioning.
4) Toilets (not that I think they are needed on suburban services mind you).
5) Modern, live/connected passenger information screens.
6) WiFi (limited benefit in suburban services though).
7) Power sockets

This excludes the benefits associated with a homogeneous fleet, with likely reduced maintenance costs, lower track access charges and possibly lower EC4T.

Of course Covid and reduced demand may dampen some of the benefits in the short-medium term but still, I think the replacement of the old stock is justified in this instance.

 

[Domh245]

What were/are they using in their place? (Genuine question, I’m interested!).

As I understood it, the plan was to backfill from 700 introduction - 377s freed from services to Horsham & East Grinstead would be used on the suburban services, but a quick glance at diagrams for Dec'19 would suggest there are still 42 diagrams M-F

 

[Milo T.K]

Alot of those the 455s have on swr and southern

Apologies but I would respectfully disagree, new build will offer many advantages.
1) increased capacity per vehicle
2) faster dwell times including door cycle times +better acceleration.
3) Air conditioning.
4) Toilets (not that I think they are needed on suburban services mind you).
5) Modern, live/connected passenger information screens.
6) WiFi (limited benefit in suburban services though).
7) Power sockets

This excludes the benefits associated with a homogeneous fleet, with likely reduced maintenance costs, lower track access charges and possibly lower EC4T.

Of course Covid and reduced demand may dampen some of the benefits in the short-medium term but still, I think the replacement of the old stock is justified in this instance.

 

[DustyBin]

As I understood it, the plan was to backfill from 700 introduction - 377s freed from services to Horsham & East Grinstead would be used on the suburban services, but a quick glance at diagrams for Dec'19 would suggest there are still 42 diagrams M-F

Thanks. I was last in London in September and the usual 455 routes were still being worked by 455s, certainly that’s how it appeared anyway.

My thought re the 456s was that they could be used to strengthen 4-car trains to 6-car. That’s total speculation though based only on the fact that they’re compatible, have worked the routes before, are decent units and will be available.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks. I was last in London in September and the usual 455 routes were still being worked by 455s, certainly that’s how it appeared anyway.

My thought re the 456s was that they could be used to strengthen 4-car trains to 6-car. That’s total speculation though based only on the fact that they’re compatible, have worked the routes before, are decent units and will be available.

Southern 455s appear to always run in 8-car formation now, certainly during the week, so no need to bolster 4-car formations to 6-car.

 

[DustyBin]

Southern 455s appear to always run in 8-car formation now, certainly during the week, so no need to bolster 4-car formations to 6-car.

Fair enough, there were single units out last September though, I caught one to Norwood Junction.

 

[py_megapixel]

Apologies but I would respectfully disagree, new build will offer many advantages.
1) increased capacity per vehicle
2) faster dwell times including door cycle times +better acceleration.
3) Air conditioning.
4) Toilets (not that I think they are needed on suburban services mind you).
5) Modern, live/connected passenger information screens.
6) WiFi (limited benefit in suburban services though).
7) Power sockets

This excludes the benefits associated with a homogeneous fleet, with likely reduced maintenance costs, lower track access charges and possibly lower EC4T.

Of course Covid and reduced demand may dampen some of the benefits in the short-medium term but still, I think the replacement of the old stock is justified in this instance.

Welcome to the forum!

I've had this discussion at length already with other members. Please see pages 2, 3 and 4 of this thread.
To summarise though: I don't disagree with the benefits of new build rolling stock, but I do disagree that the 455s are the most in need of replacement, because there are other trains in a much worse state.

You might also be interested in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-we-have-a-national-strategy-for-how-rolling-stock-is-replaced.213471/

 

[whoosh]

Are the leasing companies profiting excessively by over-charging for older rolling stock? Surely BR-era stock will have been paid for many times over by now. Is this an inherent problem with privatisation?

Well their profits are not part of the often quoted, "only 3% profit," that TOCs make out of the railway, but are a hardly ever mentioned extra load of profit made out of the system.

In 2009 a two car class 156 cost East Midlands Trains £24,000 to lease per month. That's £288,000 a year. They probably cost about that to build back in the 1980s - it would be interesting to know.

 

[physics34]

I think so, yes. And they're very comfortable.

I find it funny that people who have never been on an early 4CIG or EPB call 455 seats very comfortable looooool. This is an assumption by the way, you may have been on the slam doors....

 

[Domh245]

Alot of those the 455s have on swr and southern

Not sure if you're trying to say that the 455s have those features, because other than WiFi they don't!

 

[DustyBin]

Well their profits are not part of the often quoted, "only 3% profit," that TOCs make out of the railway, but are a hardly ever mentioned extra load of profit made out of the system.

In 2009 a two car class 156 cost East Midlands Trains £24,000 to lease per month. That's £288,000 a year. They probably cost about that to build back in the 1980s - it would be interesting to know.

Thanks that’s really interesting and goes some way to answering my question. I’d love to know more about the financial side of this but the information isn’t easy to come by as you’ll appreciate

I find it funny that people who have never been on an early 4CIG or EPB call 455 seats very comfortable looooool. This is an assumption by the way, you may have been on the slam doors....

CIGs were amazingly comfortable to travel on. I’m going to be controversial here (or maybe not!) and say that even VEPs were a lot more comfortable than most of what we now have to endure....

 

[norbitonflyer]

The term wasn’t even in normal usage in rail circles when the SWT conversion was done...

Maybe not, but regular passengers soon remarked on the similarity - also described as coffins because of the high backs and close spacing.

 

[physics34]

Thanks that’s really interesting and goes some way to answering my question. I’d love to know more about the financial side of this but the information isn’t easy to come by as you’ll appreciate



CIGs were amazingly comfortable to travel on. I’m going to be controversial here (or maybe not!) and say that even VEPs were a lot more comfortable than most of what we now have to endure....

I agree

 

[Speed1283]

Welcome to the forum!

I've had this discussion at length already with other members. Please see pages 2, 3 and 4 of this thread.
To summarise though: I don't disagree with the benefits of new build rolling stock, but I do disagree that the 455s are the most in need of replacement, because there are other trains in a much worse state.

You might also be interested in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-we-have-a-national-strategy-for-how-rolling-stock-is-replaced.213471/

Thanks for the links to previous discussions, apologies for not finding them beforehand!

I guess in the context of this tread I was specifically referring to the SWR 455s (I also travel on them so am biased!). I agree the SWR units are generally looking better than the southern units though, no denying that.

 

[Speed1283]

Alot of those the 455s have on swr and southern

Apologies. but I do not believe that is the case?

Take a look at an SWR 455 vs an SWR 707, the scale of differences is significant (toilets excepted of course as there are non on 707s).

 

[DustyBin]

Apologies. but I do not believe that is the case?

Take a look at an SWR 455 vs an SWR 707, the scale of differences is significant (toilets excepted of course as there are non on 707s).

Your probably right but overall I’d say the 455 offers a nicer travelling environment than a 707. It’s just my personal opinion but I think the Desiro City’s are the lowest of the low when it comes to passenger comfort. Awful things.

 

[Journeyman]

I find it funny that people who have never been on an early 4CIG or EPB call 455 seats very comfortable looooool. This is an assumption by the way, you may have been on the slam doors....

I've been on plenty of slam door stock, and grew up with it. It's massively over-hyped by enthusiasts. Most of it was pretty rancid.

 

[Speed1283]

Your probably right but overall I’d say the 455 offers a nicer travelling environment than a 707. It’s just my personal opinion but I think the Desiro City’s are the lowest of the low when it comes to passenger comfort. Awful things.

I guess everyone has their own opinion on this as you say. Just interesting, the 455s aren't particularly comfortable in terms of seating (tiny bit better than 707s maybe?), There's less standing room, no air conditioning, their doors rattle, the air compressors sound awful too.

 

[py_megapixel]

I guess everyone has their own opinion on this as you say. Just interesting, the 455s aren't particularly comfortable in terms of seating (tiny bit better than 707s maybe?), There's less standing room, no air conditioning, their doors rattle, the air compressors sound awful too.

You can't even hear the air compressors from inside, especially when travelling at speed.

That said, the noise on that generation of stock is an issue - especially when passing a fast train, there's a tendency for the doors to bang quite loudly

 

[Malcolmffc]

They certainly don’t look or feel life expired, to the credit of SWT who looked after them for years. They also have a modern traction package as you’ve pointed out. I’ve no idea what they’re like structurally but I haven’t heard of any serious issues, somebody on here may know more than I do about this though. What are they like in terms of reliability (I presume data is available)?

I keep meaning to start a thread about this but whilst great deals are available on new rolling stock, ultimately it has to be paid for surely? Whilst I don’t advocate trying to keep genuinely life expired stock going indefinitely, we seem to be binning (or about to bin) an awful lot of decent EMUs in particular. I suppose in short what I’m asking is are we (i.e. tax payers and rail users) paying for shiny new trains we don’t actually need?

The point is that eventually the cost of keeping old stock running approaches the cost of just replacing them with something newer.

In the specific case of the 455s, they lack air conditioning, toilets and wide enough doors to obtain satisfactory dwell times (at least in the pre-pandemic world). They are no longer fit for purpose and frankly should have gone 10 years ago.

 

[py_megapixel]

The point is that eventually the cost of keeping old stock running approaches the cost of just replacing them with something newer.

In the specific case of the 455s, they lack air conditioning, toilets and wide enough doors to obtain satisfactory dwell times (at least in the pre-pandemic world). They are no longer fit for purpose and frankly should have gone 10 years ago.

It's easy to say things like that, but 10 years ago, passenger numbers were lower and the 455s would have been only about 20-25 years old. Barely older than the first Electrostars are now, and nobody's suggesting getting rid of those!

 

[Speed1283]

It's easy to say things like that, but 10 years ago, passenger numbers were lower and the 455s would have been only about 20-25 years old. Barely older than the first Electrostars are now, and nobody's suggesting getting rid of those!

Agreed, getting rid of stock well before it's economic life is over doesn't make that much sense, unless there is a valid reason (could be reliability, safety, costs etc). 10 years ago might have been a little early for the 455s, but I'd say replacement about now is right as they are nearing 40 years in age and simply lack many of the modern features that are expected by passengers.

In terms of air conditioning alone, I was so happy when a 707 rolled in at Clapham junction instead of a 455 during summer...

 

[physics34]

I've been on plenty of slam door stock, and grew up with it. It's massively over-hyped by enthusiasts. Most of it was pretty rancid.

 

[Journeyman]

Well, you can react with whatever smileys you like! Slam door stock has gone, and most non-enthusiast users were very glad to see the back of it.

 

[43066]

Well, you can react with whatever smileys you like! Slam door stock has gone, and most non-enthusiast users were very glad to see the back of it.

Not all of it...