Is the S&C a basket case undeserving of regular public transport?

[Peterthegreat]

Really? There's limited diesel rolling stock available, and Avanti West Coast are withdrawing theirs from the route soon. Journey time from Preston to Carlisle via Clitheroe and Appleby isn't competitive either with a non-stop coach. And then there is the trouble and cost of hiring route conductors. Even then you wouldn't have through London to Glasgow services. And before anyone suggests locomotive hauled Pendolinos those are even slower, require more time to attach and detach locomotives to be compliant, and would be difficult to operate reliably.

But hiring coaches coaches is no trouble and doesn't cost money then?

 

[Journeyman]

But hiring coaches coaches is no trouble and doesn't cost money then?

If the WCML is closed, you have to hire coaches anyway for local passengers, but London to Scotland passengers can use the ECML, and XC services cover a lot of the rest.

 

[Starmill]

But hiring coaches coaches is no trouble and doesn't cost money then?

Naturally it costs money. But there's a capability in the bus industry to respond and provide modern, compliant vehicles to a reliable plan which will cater for the numbers travelling. Those costs have increased recently but not very much. It's not difficult to find compliant coaches and competent drivers. It's very difficult to find train crews who sign your diversionary route and traction.

It's only like how a lot of stock moves are done by road rather than rail because it's simply more cost effective to contract a road haulier to do the job for you. Railways are too expensive.

 

[A0]

Well, the route is used by freight and through passengers, so I think you're winning the B.S. bingo at the moment.

That doesn't mean it's suitable as a diversion route though.

And AIUI the freight volumes have dropped somewhat as well. I suspect more freight goes up the parallel WCML than goes up the S&C.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==

But hiring coaches coaches is no trouble and doesn't cost money then?

It's all relative - but you're not talking about a full closure - the bit the S&C "could" provide a diversion route for is between Preston or Lancaster and Carlisle.

On current service levels that means you need to cover 1 x TPE heading to Glasgow or Edinburgh and 1 or 2 x Avanti heading to Glasgow or Edinburgh per hour.

A 390's seating capacity is just under 600 (11 car) yet you can safely bet that few of those are running at full capacity - but even then, that could be handled by about 10 coaches. Finding 10 coaches, even at short notice, isn't that challenging. Finding them for a planned closure - i.e. some weeks ahead, is going to be much easier.

 

[37424]

I remember my first ever photography out by car with my dad on the S&C and it was to get Sunday morning diverts the first train of the day we got was a class 50 so it shows how long ago that was. The railway is somewhat different today and S&C diverts fall into the carn't be arsed category these days and with the reduction in Diesel Trains that will be even more the case going forward, retaining any line on the basis of diversionary capability is a nonsense in my view,

Also even if the current 2/3/4 car trains are reasonably well used throughout the year that doesn't mean to say that the line isn't still a massive loss maker.

 

[Grumpy]

,...so are you saying that Northern should train another dozen staff on route knowledge (over and above the number required to do regular S&C duties), to ensure that there were sufficient to cover diverted Avanti services?

Perhaps this illustrates why the whole tradition of route knowledge needs replacing . Generations of London taxi drivers have had to acquire their version of route knowledge, but then along comes satnav and the need for the knowledge disappears.
I have no problems picking up a car at a strange foreign airport, keying in the destination details, then letting the satnav tell/show me how to get there. Surely it's time to develop something similar for train drivers and both save the millions spent every year on route learning/refreshing, and gain greater flexibility in staff deployment.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember my first ever photography out by car with my dad on the S&C and it was to get Sunday morning diverts the first train of the day we got was a class 50 so it shows how long ago that was. The railway is somewhat different today and S&C diverts fall into the carn't be arsed category these days and with the reduction in Diesel Trains that will be even more the case going forward, retaining any line on the basis of diversionary capability is a nonsense in my view,

Also even if the current 2/3/4 car trains are reasonably well used throughout the year that doesn't mean to say that the line isn't still a massive loss maker.

Doesn't make it a basket case though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps this illustrates why the whole tradition of route knowledge needs replacing . Generations of London taxi drivers have had to acquire their version of route knowledge, but then along comes satnav and the need for the knowledge disappears.

DB has the Buchfahrplan which is a book (now electronic) detailing the line ahead, FWIW.

 

[Journeyman]

Doesn't make it a basket case though.

Financially it does. There's no doubt whatsoever that the S&C is a giant money pit. It has a number of expensive big structures to maintain, it's manually signalled, it goes through remote areas so access for maintenance is complicated, the gradients are very harsh so fuel costs are high, and it carries very few passengers.

I suspect it's never made a profit in its entire existence.

 

[yorksrob]

Financially it does. There's no doubt whatsoever that the S&C is a giant money pit. It has a number of expensive big structures to maintain, it's manually signalled, it goes through remote areas so access for maintenance is complicated, the gradients are very harsh so fuel costs are high, and it carries very few passengers.

I suspect it's never made a profit in its entire existence.

Financially the whole railway's a basket case though. As is health, social care, defence etc.

 

[Journeyman]

Financially the whole railway's a basket case though. As is health, social care, defence etc.

Well, actually, some parts of the railway are financially very healthy. Or were, before COVID.

 

[randyrippley]

Perhaps this illustrates why the whole tradition of route knowledge needs replacing . Generations of London taxi drivers have had to acquire their version of route knowledge, but then along comes satnav and the need for the knowledge disappears.
I have no problems picking up a car at a strange foreign airport, keying in the destination details, then letting the satnav tell/show me how to get there. Surely it's time to develop something similar for train drivers and both save the millions spent every year on route learning/refreshing, and gain greater flexibility in staff deployment.

Get rid of drivers and automate. Tesla must have something that can do the job. Simples!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, actually, some parts of the railway are financially very healthy. Or were, before COVID.

Basically the Serpell map. We don't *really* want to go there, do we? I think there is an acceptance that the social railway is a good thing, though I do think the industry does need to do something about its rather excessive cost base (not by closing lines but by looking at how it does things). There is really no good reason why Metrolink should make an operating profit (or at least break even), but Manchester suburban heavy rail not, and that needs sorting out.

 

[muddythefish]

The railway is somewhat different today and S&C diverts fall into the carn't be arsed category

I grew up near the Blackburn - Hellifield line (which fed into the S & C) and as spotters we loved the Sunday Anglo-Scottish diversions which brought passenger trains to what was then a (busy) freight only line. Some of those trains involved D400s (as we called them) on running in turns fresh out of the factory - a wonderful sight (and sound!).

I don't know when the S&C diversions finished because as a family we moved away from the area but as I recall those Sunday diversions were always well patronised and it seems to me the operating companies are providing a very shoddy service by forcing passengers on to replacement buses instead of diverting trains over the S&C when the WCML is shut.

Why are they allowed to do this and should not there be regulations that force them to divert trains where possible instead of using buses? I know that as a passenger I would never travel by rail if there is a replacement bus for part of the journey and would use the car instead.

 

[muddythefish]

To take freight as an example, over the past fifty years, the route has in turn been used to remove unfitted freight from the WCML, supply coal to Yorkshire power stations and serve quarries in Horton. If at any stage after one of those flows had ended, the route had been closed, it would not then have been available for the next flow. The key to adapting to future traffic flows is retaining the line in the first place.

Someone in another post said the S&C had never commercially "washed its face" in its entire history which I find hard to believe. I spent countless hours on Hellifield station in the 1960s and 1970s as a young spotter and it was extremely busy line, particularly for freight, 24 hours a day, with traffic during the night hours being especially heavy. Did not this traffic, which admittedly was mostly through Anglo-Scottish traffic and not generated on the S&C itself, contribute towards the commercial viability of the line?

 

[randyrippley]

Thinking about it, the S&C is an ideal candidate for converting into a guided bus and lorry route.
Nearly all the roads to the towns and villages on the route run east-west along narrow tortuous routes, while what's really needed are north-south links for buses and shop supply trucks. For instance buses running circuits of places such as Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Ingleton and then sprinting up the S&C to Carlisle could open up job opportunities to residents of the Yorks/Cumbria border.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking about it, the S&C is an ideal candidate for converting into a guided bus and lorry route.

That's about the most ridiculous idea I've heard all week.

Nearly all the roads to the towns and villages on the route run east-west along narrow tortuous routes, while what's really needed are north-south links for buses and shop supply trucks. For instance buses running circuits of places such as Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Ingleton and then sprinting up the S&C to Carlisle could open up job opportunities to residents of the Yorks/Cumbria border.

How is that better than the railway? If there's the demand (which to be honest there probably isn't), run buses to connect with the trains with integrated ticketing.

 

[Greybeard33]

And AIUI the freight volumes have dropped somewhat as well. I suspect more freight goes up the parallel WCML than goes up the S&C.

The freight that originates on the S&C, from the Arcow quarry and British Gypsum at Kirkby Thore, cannot use the WCML instead. There is no chance closure of the line would be approved when this would mean more HGVs in the Yorkshire Dales National Park. As I already pointed out upthread:

Skimming through RTT for this week, there were up to 10 freights daily that actually ran on the S&C, plus numerous unused paths. There are frequent workings from the Arcow quarry near Horton and from British Gypsum at Kirkby Thore. These flows would have to go by road if the line closed. Additionally there are through workings between Settle and Carlisle, which would otherwise need paths on the WCML or ECML.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Settle Jn all day on 09/04/2021

Train information at Settle Jn all day on 09/04/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

IMO keeping HGVs out of the Yorkshire Dales National Park is adequate justification for the line to remain open, so the infrastructure savings from removing the scheduled passenger service would be modest.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That's about the most ridiculous idea I've heard all week

Indeed. The Cambridge busway took 4 years to build and cost around £200m at today's rates and for around 16 miles. And that was through flat land with no engineering features. Multiply the distance by 5, make allowances for tunnels, probably ten years to build, the remote location and I would expect no change from a couple of billion.

 

[CBlue]

Indeed. The Cambridge busway took 4 years to build and cost around £200m at today's rates and for around 16 miles. And that was through flat land with no engineering features. Multiply the distance by 5, make allowances for tunnels, probably ten years to build, the remote location and I would expect no change from a couple of billion.

I suppose this is the speculative ideas section.

That said, the Cambridge busway is more or less a success story to the extent the local council / combined partnership want to build at least two or three in the next few years - perhaps even more when you consider the "autonomous metro" is just a set of guided busways itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose this is the speculative ideas section.

It is, but most of them at least have some foundation in reality

That said, the Cambridge busway is more or less a success story to the extent the local council / combined partnership want to build at least two or three in the next few years - perhaps even more when you consider the "autonomous metro" is just a set of guided busways itself.

The Cambridgeshire busway is a fairly unique proposition, though (give or take Gosport which is in some ways not dissimilar), and works because it covers a commuter hinterland to a very anti-car city, and one that is quite spread out but all heads to Cambridge via basically one corridor. If you wanted to run buses from Appleby, Settle or whatever to Carlisle, then there's already a perfectly good "busway" to do that on, it's called the M6, and that stretch is, barring major collisions, basically always uncongested, and the A65 and A66 to reach it are hardly the rush hour M25 either.

 

[HS2isgood]

I personally think that the Settle and Carlisle will eventually be electrified whenever HS2-induced demand makes freight trains on the north WCML totally unviable, so they will have to be detoured via the S&C. However, it will take years, as it is not an easy line to electrify. Having said that, I have to admit that, for passenger purposes, it is a total basket case. The total population of the stations between Skipton and Carlisle doesn't even reach 15,000!

 

[daodao]

I have to admit that, for passenger purposes, it is a total basket case. The total population of the stations between Skipton and Carlisle doesn't even reach 15,000!

One of the misconceptions about the S&C line is that it provides a service to a significant population. It does not, which is why I questioned the need to retain it in my original post. The 2 largest towns served are:

• Settle (population 2,564 at the 2011 Census), which is also served by Giggleswick and could be possibly be retained as a terminal station for a morning and evening peak working from Leeds if the S&C line was closed as a through route.
• Appleby (population 3,048 at the 2011 Census), which was formerly the county town for Westmorland and even returned 2 MPs until Lord Grey (briefly one of its MPs before being elevated to the peerage in 1807) abolished pocket boroughs as part of the 1832 Reform Act.

Is Appleby's former importance as a county town with 2 MPs one of the reasons why it is considered a bigger and more significant place than it actually is? From 1781-4, one of its MPs was the distinguished and long-serving PM, William Pitt the Younger.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, actually, some parts of the railway are financially very healthy. Or were, before COVID.

Not many though. I can still remember seeing reports that most TOC's required subsidy up until quite recently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2021 ==

Basically the Serpell map. We don't *really* want to go there, do we? I think there is an acceptance that the social railway is a good thing, though I do think the industry does need to do something about its rather excessive cost base (not by closing lines but by looking at how it does things). There is really no good reason why Metrolink should make an operating profit (or at least break even), but Manchester suburban heavy rail not, and that needs sorting out.

That's a good point.

And we know heavy rail can break even by some metrics. Think NSE, and no one needed to consider shutting the Marshlink (not since about 1979 anyway).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2021 ==

One of the misconceptions about the S&C line is that it provides a service to a significant population. It does not, which is why I questioned the need to retain it in my original post. The 2 largest towns served are:

• Settle (population 2,564 at the 2011 Census), which is also served by Giggleswick and could be possibly be retained as a terminal station for a morning and evening peak working from Leeds if the S&C line was closed as a through route.
• Appleby (population 3,048 at the 2011 Census), which was formerly the county town for Westmorland and even returned 2 MPs until Lord Grey (briefly one of its MPs before being elevated to the peerage in 1807) abolished pocket boroughs as part of the 1832 Reform Act.

Is Appleby's former importance as a county town with 2 MPs one of the reasons why it is considered a bigger and more significant place than it actually is? From 1781-4, one of its MPs was the distinguished and long-serving PM, William Pitt the Younger.

Ah, Giggleswick Parkway.

The S&C does provide a service to a significant population. The West Riding of Yorkshire. It gets urban city dwellers into the Dales.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2021 ==

Someone in another post said the S&C had never commercially "washed its face" in its entire history which I find hard to believe. I spent countless hours on Hellifield station in the 1960s and 1970s as a young spotter and it was extremely busy line, particularly for freight, 24 hours a day, with traffic during the night hours being especially heavy. Did not this traffic, which admittedly was mostly through Anglo-Scottish traffic and not generated on the S&C itself, contribute towards the commercial viability of the line?

Back in the day it would have facilitated The Midland running to Scotland. I don't know whether that meant the section of line operated as a profit, but as a company The Midland Railway certainly had a commercial justification for running from London to Scotland.

 

[daodao]

The S&C does provide a service to a significant population. The West Riding of Yorkshire.

The southern part of the S&C line to just north of Garsdale station is in the former West Riding of Yorkshire, but hardly anyone lives in this area.

 

[yorksrob]

The southern part of the S&C line to just north of Garsdale station is in the former West Riding of Yorkshire, but hardly anyone lives in this area.

True, but plenty of people arrive from the rest of the county.

 

[Ianno87]

True, but plenty of people arrive from the rest of the county.

"Plenty". More warm, vague words without actual numbers.

Is there an actual number to put to this - what proportion of the population of the West Riding actually use the S&C trains north of Skipton, say, at least once per year for any purpose?

 

[yorksrob]

"Plenty". More warm, vague words without actual numbers.

Is there an actual number to put to this - what proportion of the population of the West Riding actually use the S&C trains north of Skipton, say, at least once per year for any purpose?

As I've said before, the proposition of the thread is that the line is a basket case.

It is up to you to justify why you think that is the case.

At present, we've had passenger figures at intermediate stations, speculation as to what proportion of interchanges at Carlisle come from the S&C and vague assertions that most of the trains on the route are empty.

None of this adds up to a case supporting the assertion of this thread.

 

[Ianno87]

As I've said before, the proposition of the thread is that the line is a basket case.

It is up to you to justify why you think that is the case.

At present, we've had passenger figures at intermediate stations, speculation as to what proportion of interchanges at Carlisle come from the S&C and vague assertions that most of the trains on the route are empty.

None of this adds up to a case supporting the assertion of this thread.

Just challenging your claim that the line serves "the entire West Riding of Yorkshire", which is optimistic to say the least.

 

[zwk500]

As I've said before, the proposition of the thread is that the line is a basket case.

It is up to you to justify why you think that is the case.

At present, we've had passenger figures at intermediate stations, speculation as to what proportion of interchanges at Carlisle come from the S&C and vague assertions that most of the trains on the route are empty.

None of this adds up to a case supporting the assertion of this thread.

If you didn't personally use the line, would you make exactly the same arguments you've been using?

A lot of your assertions can't be disproven without access to the ticketing database (which is strictly controlled) and conducting a full piece of route analysis. That's a 5-figure fee from a consultant. It's not surprising people posting in their spare time aren't showing you the case. But just because you haven't been shown the data doesn't mean your experiences of personal travel are automatically the full and accurate story.