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Is the S&C a basket case undeserving of regular public transport?

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Bletchleyite

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The A65 is a fantastic driving road. I love it.

To be fair it only follows the S&C from Skipton to Settle so it isn’t really a decent comparison.

I enjoy driving scenic roads almost as much as I enjoy riding trains on scenic lines. The thing I don't enjoy is 2+ hours on the M1/M6 to get anywhere near said scenic roads. At least if you're "enjoying" the drab sameness of the southern end of the ECML you can read a book, though.
 
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yoyothehobo

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The problem with the A65 is that everyone else is on it driving at 40mph! Stops it being a good driving road and i have been on it a lot of late.

I know Eden Brows was a major rebuild, but it wasnt an insurmountable rebuild and the works cost 23 million, if you are looking at an event an order of magnitude more expensive to repair, then serious questions get asked.
 

Neptune

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The problem with the A65 is that everyone else is on it driving at 40mph! Stops it being a good driving road and i have been on it a lot of late.
True, it makes it all the more worthwhile when you do get a good run. The overtaking lane near Giggleswick is a godsend.
 

30907

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True, it makes it all the more worthwhile when you do get a good run. The overtaking lane near Giggleswick is a godsend.
Indeed it is (I know we are totally OT!) but then West of Kirkby Lonsdale is pretty slow.

Back on topic - I checked my records and my infrequent experiences (never at weekends or in really bad weather) on both routes West of Skipton vary from 3 cars full to 2 cars lightly loaded (meaning maybe 20 pax, so more than a minibus), the latter being on the newly-introduced 20xx from Carlisle and a Langwathby starter during the Eden Brows blockade (obviously atypical!).
That sort of variation isn't particularly unusual on any form of public transport.
 

yorksrob

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For us Marshlink users its interesting to see the investment lavished on these rural lines in the North, Wales and Scotland when all we on the south coast suffer is broken promises on electrification, more coaches and line speed increases:
Marshlink ORR station figures;
Rye 474,000
Ham St 92,000
Appledore 40,000
Three Oaks 12,600
Winchelsea 9,000

The Marshlink is a route that is also close to my heart, and one that I have used many many times over the decades.

I agree it is deserving of investment, however the key problem for that route seems to be the inability to extend third rail electrification due to current Health and Safety regulations. I suspect that had NSE remained a few years longer you would have had 4 carriage CIG's plying their trade decades ago (and I don't mean dragged by a diesel loco)

There was a major infrastructure failure five or six years ago when a large section of the hillside below the line collapsed at Eden Brows, North of Armathwaite and it was repaired at huge expense. If there were to be another major infrastructure failure in the future, it would almost certainly occur on the Kirkby Stephen-Carlisle section, where the soft red Cumbrian sandstone - which can almost become liquid after heavy rain - has caused numerous landslips, both above and below the line, since its opening in 1876. At least three of those landslips - at Mallerstang, Crosby Garrett and Little Salkeld, have caused train derailments and/or collisions - the former sadly involving a staff fatality. The main point of vunerability on the Southern Section of the line is, of course, Ribblehead Viaduct, which will need regular heavy maintenance due to its size, position and the prevailing weather conditions. Despite all these potential problems and the undoubted financial losses that the line's passenger services incur, I can't help but feel that the government (DfT) and therefore, by default, Network Rail regard the line as a long-term strategic neccessity to be maintained in case of a major blockage of either the ECML or WCML.

Yes, it's heartening to reflect on the strenuous efforts at the time, not only to rebuild the affected section, but also to maintain as much of a service as possible. Contrast that with now.
 

Grecian 1998

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Politicians don't tend to like line closures for a number of reasons:

1. Politically very unpopular, even with people who don't use the train.
2. The closures of the 60s and 70s never saved as much money as was anticipated.
3. The process of closing lines and stations is hugely time-consuming and expensive.

Politicians like measures with immediate short-term benefits. Measures which are very expensive and unpopular in the short-term, and where any benefits are entirely long-term? Not popular.

Additionally the current government want to look like they are investing in the north of England having won the 'red wall'. Closing northern railway lines wouldn't play well to the gallery, particularly given the perception that the north was unfairly targeted under the tier system last year.

Whilst anyone can argue that a line should be closed if they want, it's unlikely that the government will agree barring a total economic collapse or a total collapse of infrastructure as referenced upthread.

BR spent the period from 1983-89 seeking permission to close the S&C when it had a whopping total of one intermediate station and a skeleton service. The government refused permission. The signalling upgrade in the 2000s (admittedly for freight traffic which has subsequently reduced) and that no questions were asked about the cost of repairs at Eden Brows indicate the line's future is as safe as it realistically could be currently. Any catastrophic infrastructure collapse might change that, but then the same could be said of many routes.

Does the S&C run at a loss? I assume so, but then large swathes of the network do. The routes BR designated as part of the Intercity sector were chosen in part so that sector could be seen to run at a profit.

Is it a 'basket case'? If it is then large chunks of the railway could be described as basket cases. There are likely plenty of routes running at a worse loss. Whilst it does have some expensive infrastructure such as Ribblehead Viaduct and Blea Moor Tunnel, 2 hourly 158s running at 60mph presumably can't cause that much wear and tear to the track. Whilst freight will, freight is supposed to pay its own way to a much greater extent than passenger rail. The regular steam specials in normal times also presumably pay their way. On the other hand, this document indicates there are 9 open signal boxes. I presume the cost of staffing them would be a significant part of the line's costs, although I don't claim to be an expert.


Should the S&C be a low priority in emergencies such as the pandemic? Yes probably. Northern should focus resources on its busiest routes unless there are good reasons for doing otherwise. In normal times a 2 hourly service seems about right to me.
 

Clayton

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Locals are few and will have cars, but this is iconic and won’t be closed. I imagine it’s mainly for the tourists - we’re going up there this year and hope to have a trip on it - so I hope the train company presents the service in an appropriately appealing way.
 

chorleyjeff

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True, it makes it all the more worthwhile when you do get a good run. The overtaking lane near Giggleswick is a godsend.
From central Lancashire ( the pre 1974 version) it is impractical to use the S&C to get to hiking destinations for a day out. Either change at Preston. Lancaster and somewhere at or before Hellifield or Manchester and Bradford or Leeds. The M65 and road to Long Preston then the A65 are a much better alternative even if drifting along at 40 mph than trying to access the S&C by rail. Utility of S&C to next door Lancashire for passengers is z.ero

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And big moneyspinner for the North Yorks police video van
If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. People choosing to pay a voluntary tax.
 

Bletchleyite

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From central Lancashire ( the pre 1974 version) it is impractical to use the S&C to get to hiking destinations for a day out. Either change at Preston. Lancaster and somewhere at or before Hellifield or Manchester and Bradford or Leeds. The M65 and road to Long Preston then the A65 are a much better alternative even if drifting along at 40 mph than trying to access the S&C by rail. Utility of S&C to next door Lancashire for passengers is z.ero

Agreed. The only time it's actually useful from Lancashire is on a summer Sunday when DalesRail is operating. I reckon they would probably do OK with it if they operated it on summer Saturdays and every day in the school hols as well, to be honest (particularly as if it operated Saturday and Sunday you might get some weekend trippers), though it'd be pointless running it at other times.
 

yorksrob

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From central Lancashire ( the pre 1974 version) it is impractical to use the S&C to get to hiking destinations for a day out. Either change at Preston. Lancaster and somewhere at or before Hellifield or Manchester and Bradford or Leeds. The M65 and road to Long Preston then the A65 are a much better alternative even if drifting along at 40 mph than trying to access the S&C by rail. Utility of S&C to next door Lancashire for passengers is z.ero

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. People choosing to pay a voluntary tax.

Agreed. The only time it's actually useful from Lancashire is on a summer Sunday when DalesRail is operating. I reckon they would probably do OK with it if they operated it on summer Saturdays and every day in the school hols as well, to be honest (particularly as if it operated Saturday and Sunday you might get some weekend trippers), though it'd be pointless running it at other times.

Admittedly the S&C isn't the most useful route for central Lacashire. Had the Colne route continued to run to Skipton, this would have provided a good connection, but obviously this isn't the case.

It would be possible to make the route more useful to Lancashire by extending the Clitheroes to Hellifield to connect of course.
 
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