Is there a case for reopening the the Port Road line?

[duffers2324]

Does anyone think there is a real case to reopen the Port Road Line between Carlisle and Stranraer with reopened stations at Eastriggs, Maxwelltown, Castle Douglas, Dalbeattie, Creetown, Gatehouse of Fleet, Newtown Stewart and Glenluce.

I think if this were to be reopened this would mean it could be used for freight as well as passenger services.

If the reopening of certain projects such as the Borders railway turns out to be a success, then could this be another possible project to fill in a missing link.

Thoughts??

 

[ainsworth74]

What freight?

No one lives there and tourism isn't exactly a huge draw (Stranraer station only had 45,000 entry/exits last year).

This project has got to be firmly in the 'nice to have' category rather than the 'needed urgently'.

 

[adrock1976]

I think there is a better chance of Elvis Presley being found alive and well, and for Glasgow Crossrail to be up and running before the route via Castle Douglas is reopened.

 

[QueensCurve]

I think there is a better chance of Elvis Presley being found alive and well..d.

At Prestwick perhaps?

 

[duffers2324]

well there is a facebook page which seems to think that it could be a possibility:
https://www.facebook.com/ReopenTheDumfriesStranraerRailway?ref=profile

 

[30907]

Given that the Girvan Stranraer line isn't in the best of economic health, that Stranraer Harbour no longer has ferries, and that the only town of any size en route is Castle Douglas...not a chance.

 

[thenorthern]

I think as well people forget that Carlisle isn't that big but because it is isolated and on the West Coast Mainline and M6 motorway it often seems bigger than it really is. Dumfries isn't that big either which combined I don't think could justify the re-opening of the line.

I would like to see it reopened though.

 

[ainsworth74]

well there is a facebook page which seems to think that it could be a possibility

There are Facebook pages for just about everything, doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things

I'm not opposed but I think there are far far bigger priorities for reopening.

 

[Pinza-C55]

There is a strong case for reopening it but unfortunately we no longer have a national rail system or a government which cares about anything more than what the next foreign pension fund is prepared to invest in. I don't think it will be reopened in my lifetime.

 

[najaB]

There is a strong case for reopening it...

Where's the traffic from/to?

 

[47802]

I doubt there is weak case for reopening it never mind a strong one.

 

[me123]

I have to agree with some other commenters on here. There's little to no chance of this happening. As lovely an area as Dumfries and Galloway is, there just aren't many large settlements along the line of the route that would warrant a station, and Stranraer is a mere shadow of its former self. Just look at how relatively few people travel from Glasgow to Stranraer. And I think it's safe to say that Glasgow is going to be by far the biggest market. There's just not enough traffic for the line to work.

I'd love to see a line back through that part of the world, but it just isn't financially viable. The A75 is a miserable drive through, with lots of lorries heading towards Cairnryan and few overtaking opportunities. But nevertheless, there's not enough opportunities to move this traffic to rail.

 

[47802]

I have to agree with some other commenters on here. There's little to no chance of this happening. As lovely an area as Dumfries and Galloway is, there just aren't many large settlements along the line of the route that would warrant a station, and Stranraer is a mere shadow of its former self. Just look at how relatively few people travel from Glasgow to Stranraer. And I think it's safe to say that Glasgow is going to be by far the biggest market. There's just not enough traffic for the line to work.

I'd love to see a line back through that part of the world, but it just isn't financially viable. The A75 is a miserable drive through, with lots of lorries heading towards Cairnryan and few overtaking opportunities. But nevertheless, there's not enough opportunities to move this traffic to rail.

Indeed I think I would be more concerned about the existing line to Stranraer than trying to reopen another,

 

[70014IronDuke]

Indeed I think I would be more concerned about the existing line to Stranraer than trying to reopen another,

Precisely this.

If there is any money around for improvements, maybe an extra station or two on the G&SW - and the provision of a better interval service, including improvements to the awful Sunday service.

 

[kylemore]

What freight?

No one lives there and tourism isn't exactly a huge draw (Stranraer station only had 45,000 entry/exits last year).

This project has got to be firmly in the 'nice to have' category rather than the 'needed urgently'.

Unfortunately you're probably right.

But here is a fantasy scenario -

It's around 10pm and the Northern Irish LGVs roll off the ferries at Cairnryan trundling a short distance to the International Freight Terminal.

There they quickly load onto the waitng overnight Piggyback services (with couchettes for the drivers) to the Midlands, London, France and Germany via the (loading gauge enhanced) electrified railways to the south.

The next day the drivers - with a full day's driving hours intact - delver/collect their loads using a fraction of the fuel they would normally use before boarding the Piggybacks back to Cairnryan.

Yes total fantasy for the UK - but it's as well to remind ourselves that the rest of Europe is not as daft as we are!

 

[Western Lord]

Take a look at Google earth and try to trace the course of the line through the towns en route. It's gone for good.

 

[RT4038]

Unfortunately you're probably right.

But here is a fantasy scenario -

It's around 10pm and the Northern Irish LGVs roll off the ferries at Cairnryan trundling a short distance to the International Freight Terminal.

There they quickly load onto the waitng overnight Piggyback services (with couchettes for the drivers) to the Midlands, London, France and Germany via the (loading gauge enhanced) electrified railways to the south.

The next day the drivers - with a full day's driving hours intact - delver/collect their loads using a fraction of the fuel they would normally use before boarding the Piggybacks back to Cairnryan.

Yes total fantasy for the UK - but it's as well to remind ourselves that the rest of Europe is not as daft as we are!

Yes, this is undoubtedly a fantasy scenario. Rather, put the trailer (or container) on the train (no need for a couchette car, or to pay the driver whilst he is travelling along) and get it delivered by another company at the other end? The train could take the longer route via Ayr and no need for all the expense of re-opening this line.

The piggyback might use only a fraction of the fuel, but think about the freight charge (due to the expensive way the railway does everything) and that your load is beholden to a third party (with infrastructure failures, equipment shortages, industrial disputes, inefficiency etc etc).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... The A75 is a miserable drive through, with lots of lorries heading towards Cairnryan and few overtaking opportunities. But nevertheless, there's not enough opportunities to move this traffic to rail.

The A75 is a lot better for the long-term upgrade mind, I usually go along it annually to get to Northern Ireland and for every year since about 2011 I've noticed some form of improvement - the latest being dualling and realignment at one of the few remaining settlements still on the A road, and a 2-3 mile bypass of Dunragit and the awkward rail bridge there. Certainly a lot more tolerable now than it was a decade ago! Still a mind-numbing drive though, the only properly scenic stretch I've found is between Annan and Dumfries.

 

[Argosy]

Does anyone think there is a real case to reopen the Port Road Line between Carlisle and Stranraer with reopened stations at Eastriggs, Maxwelltown, Castle Douglas, Dalbeattie, Creetown, Gatehouse of Fleet, Newtown Stewart and Glenluce.

I think if this were to be reopened this would mean it could be used for freight as well as passenger services.

If the reopening of certain projects such as the Borders railway turns out to be a success, then could this be another possible project to fill in a missing link.

Thoughts??

This is a good idea but frought with major difficulties. Just depends upon what you want to do.

Contrary to Ainsworth's comments tourism is a big issue in D&G along the route of the A75. In fact it would be a very popular tourist railway as most of the visitors come from......England (source Destination D&G visitor survey).

With regards to freight, as the Scottish Government's infrastructure committee has just recommended that a rail link to Cairnryan be looked at (progress or what) then this is positive. The Loch Ryan ports combined are a major facility. The trouble is rail is yet to break into the short sea inter modal market and compete with ro-ro. One thing though is there are a high number of unaccompanied trailers on these routes. If these were swap bodies and if NR hadn't been so quick to rip out the last freight facility in Stranraer we might be able to do something.

The main issues are:
1. Land take in urban areas (all gone Castle Douglas a classic, now a Tescos, bridge flattened etc)

2. Pasenger traffic flows likely to be low, but at least in the direction people want to go ie Dumfries & Carlisle.

3. Financial cost and cbr (cost benefit ratio).

I would estimate the cost as bordering on £1bn to be honest and that is too much. However if we had road pricing......

One would (probably) need to find a new route to get near Kircudbright and Dalbeatie, Castle Douglas, Newton Stewart and Glenluce all have land use issues, not to mention bits of the old line near are now part of the A75.

An interesting fact is that under Beeching the Port Road covered all its operating costs whilst the Girvan line only covered 67% of its operating costs.

It could be looked at as part of HS3? to connect into a link to Scotland to allow a link to Ireland and regeneration which the sw of Scotland badly needs.

As for scenery if you think Annan to Dumfries is the most scenic stretch you must have been asleep at some point. It is flat there!

 

[Pinza-C55]

I have to agree with some other commenters on here. There's little to no chance of this happening. As lovely an area as Dumfries and Galloway is, there just aren't many large settlements along the line of the route that would warrant a station, and Stranraer is a mere shadow of its former self. Just look at how relatively few people travel from Glasgow to Stranraer. And I think it's safe to say that Glasgow is going to be by far the biggest market. There's just not enough traffic for the line to work.

I'd love to see a line back through that part of the world, but it just isn't financially viable. The A75 is a miserable drive through, with lots of lorries heading towards Cairnryan and few overtaking opportunities. But nevertheless, there's not enough opportunities to move this traffic to rail.

If there is no possible traffic for a reopened line where are the "lots of lorries" bound for and what are they carrying ?

 

[najaB]

If there is no possible traffic for a reopened line where are the "lots of lorries" bound for and what are they carrying ?

I don't think anyone has said that there's no traffic at all, but there's a vast difference between the amount of traffic that makes a single carriageway A road busy and the amount that justifies spending the better part of half a billion pounds to reopen a railway.

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately you're probably right.

But here is a fantasy scenario -

It's around 10pm and the Northern Irish LGVs roll off the ferries at Cairnryan trundling a short distance to the International Freight Terminal.

There they quickly load onto the waitng overnight Piggyback services (with couchettes for the drivers) to the Midlands, London, France and Germany via the (loading gauge enhanced) electrified railways to the south.

The next day the drivers - with a full day's driving hours intact - delver/collect their loads using a fraction of the fuel they would normally use before boarding the Piggybacks back to Cairnryan.

Yes total fantasy for the UK - but it's as well to remind ourselves that the rest of Europe is not as daft as we are!

Freight for the continent is unlikely to be unloaded at Cairnryan. It makes much more sense for the boat to simply continue to Rotterdam or somewhere else more appropriate.

 

[jimm]

It's a nice idea/fantasy but nothing more than that. The sums of money needed would be mind-boggling and you would need a whole new coastal route between Castle Douglas and Newton Stewart, via Kirkcudbright and Gatehouse of Fleet, where people actually live, rather than the wilderness 'served' by the old line.

The discount airlines, road hauliers and shipping lines are far better adapted to meeting the modern-day transport needs of Northern Ireland and that is not going to change.

The Irish transit traffic was why the Port Road and the Girvan route were built in the first place - with serving the locals and visitors being an afterthought - but the railway has lost that traffic bit by bit over the past 50 years and it's not going to come back unless you price road hauliers off the M6 and A75 and make airlines and shipping companies pay tax on their fuel.

Any money that is available for rail in that part of Scotland should be directed at developing ways to ensure the survival of the existing line to Stranraer, end of story.

if NR hadn't been so quick to rip out the last freight facility in Stranraer we might be able to do something.

I would hardly call waiting 20-plus years from the end of Stockton Haulage's operations to finally removing the track 'quick'.

 

[najaB]

Any money that is available for rail in that part of Scotland should be directed at developing ways to ensure the survival of the existing line to Stranraer, end of story.

Semantics, I know, but money *should* be spent on re-openings, but sadly *must* be spent on stopping further closures.

 

[route:oxford]

Take a look at Google earth and try to trace the course of the line through the towns en route. It's gone for good.

You're falling into the classic enthusiast trap.

Did you know there is no formal legislation in Scotland that demands a new rail route has to follow the exact route of a closed line?

I can see the benefit of a rail link between Carlisle and Stranraer and for the people living on towns that could be served by the route.

I also suspect that people in the North of Scotland will be asking "what about us?" - Peterhead to Aberdeen is probably a far stronger case - as well as the current issue of the Highland Clearances of 158 stock to use on the Borders Rail Link

 

[najaB]

I also suspect that people in the North of Scotland will be asking "what about us?" - Peterhead to Aberdeen is probably a far stronger case - as well as the current issue of the Highland Clearances of 158 stock to use on the Borders Rail Link

Edinburgh-Glenfarg-Perth would also be up there - knocks significant time off journeys between the Central Belt and the Highlands. Much better business case than the Port Road.

 

[Argosy]

Any money that is available for rail in that part of Scotland should be directed at developing ways to ensure the survival of the existing line to Stranraer, end of story.



I would hardly call waiting 20-plus years from the end of Stockton Haulage's operations to finally removing the track 'quick'.

It is when it was thought to be a Strategic Freight site, that the local CRP campaigned to keep that open in 2010? and ORR only permitted closure of Stranraer Town Yard on the strength that access to Stockton Haulage was maintained.

The existing line to Stranraer (as a line) has better growth figures over the last 6 years than the West Highland and Oban lines. Indeed the northern lines account for the minority of it.

 

[Argosy]

If there is no possible traffic for a reopened line where are the "lots of lorries" bound for and what are they carrying ?

Mainly fmcg (fast moving consumer goods) to Northern Ireland. A major haulier is McBurney who at one time was considering their own ferry service!

 

[kylemore]

Freight for the continent is unlikely to be unloaded at Cairnryan. It makes much more sense for the boat to simply continue to Rotterdam or somewhere else more appropriate.

Theres room for both - yes containerised loads can go by the "feeder" routes from Belfast to the major container hub ports, however there's still plenty of LGVs making the long journey for a variety of reasons.
And my scenario would not need the "Port Road" to work - but would need extension from Stranraer to Cairnryan and extensive gauge enhancement!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To be honest - even in the 19thC , the route struggled economically (there are comments on this in David L Smith's books on the Glasgow and South Western) - thin local services and a few not really performing very well long distance services like sleepers from London via the S+C (which in itself was not a gold mine really)

Road hauliers will not use it when they can get Eastern European drivers to work cheaply and with some disregard to the tachograph - on what basically are "free to use" roads. IN any case - not enough volume even if it were possible.