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Is there any valid reason to why Chester is not electrified (ignoring P7)

craigybagel

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Crewe to Chester alone would make a lot of sense - potentially 3tph would benefit
  • 1tph Avanti (Chester terminator could be EMU, Holyhead terminator requires BMU)
  • 2tph local EMU stopper, calling at newly reopened Beeston and Tarporley (increased frequency)
20 miles of electrification (Crewe Station and 1 mile towards Chester already wired) is quite short and could be achieved for £65 million if £1m/stkm is at all possible.

However - CLC, Rochdale, Atherton would all equally be deserving of such electrification investment, and would need to be prioritised on a cost/benefits ratio.
As mentioned above, dealing with Christleton tunnel is not going to come cheap. Nor the many low over bridges, or resignalling Beeston Castle. Suddenly it doesn't seem all that sensible.
 
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sansyy

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As mentioned above, dealing with Christleton tunnel is not going to come cheap. Nor the many low over bridges, or resignalling Beeston Castle. Suddenly it doesn't seem all that sensible.
From what I recall, there are about 20ish bridges I think and about 16 of them would be easy to deal with, with 4 being more difficult. As much as it might be difficult and non-sensical to do, in the long run it would be very much worth the struggle and will make wiring up North Wales and other lines like Chester-Shrewsbury, Crewe-Shrewsbury etc a lot easier and benefit with the Welsh border being electrified.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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From what I recall, there are about 20ish bridges I think and about 16 of them would be easy to deal with, with 4 being more difficult. As much as it might be difficult and non-sensical to do, in the long run it would be very much worth the struggle and will make wiring up North Wales and other lines like Chester-Shrewsbury, Crewe-Shrewsbury etc a lot easier and benefit with the Welsh border being electrified.
This is the real issue. We do not have any long-term strategy, with clearly defined priorities, for the electrification of the majority of the national network, though the Scots are at least trying. Instead we are shifting towards less efficient bi-modes (which to be clear are still likely to better than continuing with pure diesel operation) and the hope of some technological solution to allow for IPMUs which don't use diesel but don't rely on expensive resource depleting batteries. Hydrogen seems unlikely to provide the answer which brings us back to bionic duckweed ie nothing.
 

sansyy

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This is the real issue. We do not have any long-term strategy, with clearly defined priorities, for the electrification of the majority of the national network, though the Scots are at least trying. Instead we are shifting towards less efficient bi-modes (which to be clear are still likely to better than continuing with pure diesel operation) and the hope of some technological solution to allow for IPMUs which don't use diesel but don't rely on expensive resource depleting batteries. Hydrogen seems unlikely to provide the answer which brings us back to bionic duckweed ie nothing.
I really hope we can get some sort of government in place or a rail body to try and set us some plans. I always thought the point of the network rail control groups were for this purpose but so far all their promised intentions are a load of nonsense and nothing is ever done via them. Really disappointing considering how important rail transport is in this country.
 

Meglos

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If Bristol (UK's 6th biggest city) which has a population for nearly 650000, and Bath which has a population slightly bigger to Chester can't make in ontp the electricified list on their busiest route which is into Paddington, what makes you think that Chester where is not only has a smaller catchment, but also where the main passenger route is to Liverpool will be anywhere in the priority list.
 

Bikeman78

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How many services are there of which Crewe - Chester is the only unwired section?
Priorities should be short sections which would help to eliminate diesel running under the wires (either instal wiring or order bi-modes)
To be fair, Crewe to Chester is a shuttle most of the time but TfW would need to order some EMUs if it were wired. The Euston trains are bi-mode so they could use the OHL or straight EMUs could be used for trains which terminate at Chester.
 

Meerkat

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To be fair, Crewe to Chester is a shuttle most of the time but TfW would need to order some EMUs if it were wired. The Euston trains are bi-mode so they could use the OHL or straight EMUs could be used for trains which terminate at Chester.
Or some 777s could be dual voltage and run through to Crewe.
 

The Planner

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There also seems to be an assumption that you can feed it off the existing network. Im not sure thats guaranteed. If you can't, then the bridges are small change.
 

craigybagel

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From what I recall, there are about 20ish bridges I think and about 16 of them would be easy to deal with, with 4 being more difficult. As much as it might be difficult and non-sensical to do, in the long run it would be very much worth the struggle and will make wiring up North Wales and other lines like Chester-Shrewsbury, Crewe-Shrewsbury etc a lot easier and benefit with the Welsh border being electrified.
At what level of expense does it become no longer worth the struggle? The other lines are not likely to be electrified any time soon - and again, it's not just the bridges you're dealing with (as awkward as they are), it's a very problematic and potentially expensive tunnel.
With the long term goal to connect Wrexham and Crewe that seems unlikely.
Not to mention the logistical challenges (and inefficiencies) of separating out the Crewe - Chester shuttle from TfW, an idea often put forward by posters who think the service shouldn't be run by a Welsh based TOC regardless of any other logic. Granted electrification would remove the largest hurdle, but not the only one.
 

Bikeman78

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Not to mention the logistical challenges (and inefficiencies) of separating out the Crewe - Chester shuttle from TfW, an idea often put forward by posters who think the service shouldn't be run by a Welsh based TOC regardless of any other logic. Granted electrification would remove the largest hurdle, but not the only one.
It used to be worked by First North Western, when anything from a 101 to a 158 could turn up on it. No Idea where the crew were based. Probably similar to now.
 

Mikey C

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Bimodes (for better or worse) do make electrifying such sections (Chester to Crewe) less urgent.

Yes it needs to be done, but for me would be a lower priority than finishing off the MML, the aborted GW sections to Bristol and Oxford, and starting on the Chiltern Mainline (at both the London and Birmingham ends).
 

craigybagel

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It used to be worked by First North Western, when anything from a 101 to a 158 could turn up on it. No Idea where the crew were based. Probably similar to now.
I would assume under FNW it was Chester, Llandudno Junction and Holyhead. Today it is all of those depots plus Crewe and Shrewsbury, and for guards only Cardiff.
 

QueensCurve

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I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

The new 197s and the newish 195s are nice but whenever commuting far its not always so nice to sit on a 153 2-car thrown on to Birmingham New Street by Transport for Wales making the journey more viable by sitting in the gangways the entire time.

It just makes no sense to me considering Runcorn, Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool and most stations origin from Chester are electrified minus the North Wales Coast Line being unelectrified.
The same goes for many places.

HMG has ostensibly committed funding for electrification of the N Wales main line, but whether they have allocated enough money or indeed whether any of the "Network North" investment will ever be seen is questionable.

Even if the NW Main line is electrified, it doesn't really make any sense without going on to both Warrington and Crewe.

There is the 750V DC electrification from Chester to the Liverpool Loop but that stands alone.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Transport for Wales have been changing to a new fleet and took their best trains (Class 175) off lease when the Chester depot became the base for maintaining the 197’s.
Best trains in your (and mine, admittedly, and I preferred them to the MK4s too) opinion, but it's not objective.
 

Elecman

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There also seems to be an assumption that you can feed it off the existing network. Im not sure thats guaranteed. If you can't, then the bridges are small change.
The line runs right past the Crewe Grid Bulk supply point at Middlwich Toad
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The same goes for many places.

HMG has ostensibly committed funding for electrification of the N Wales main line, but whether they have allocated enough money or indeed whether any of the "Network North" investment will ever be seen is questionable.

Even if the NW Main line is electrified, it doesn't really make any sense without going on to both Warrington and Crewe.

There is the 750V DC electrification from Chester to the Liverpool Loop but that stands alone.
The NW mainline announcement was desperate back of a fag packet stuff by Sunak. HS2 was (rather shockingly) designated as an England and Wales scheme by the treasury. There was no way they could get away with that for Network North unless at least some money was promised to Wales.
 

The Planner

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The line runs right past the Crewe Grid Bulk supply point at Middlwich Toad
Is there enough juice to cover the extra services though? you would assume so if it was just the 2tph, but considering how close to the limit a lot of the network is its not guaranteed.
 

eldomtom2

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Going back to original question, the simple answer is the ratio between the benefits (including social and environmental) and the costs hasn’t been high enough for it to be a high priority for investment (for governments of any colour).
Of course, that's not to say the ratio was correctly calculated or that governments have set the correct priorities...
 

GardenRail

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I suspect Chester falls into insignificance when the likes of Sheffield and Nottingham still haven't got electrification.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The line runs right past the Crewe Grid Bulk supply point at Middlwich Toad

Is there enough juice to cover the extra services though? you would assume so if it was just the 2tph, but considering how close to the limit a lot of the network is its not guaranteed.
North Wales is well-provisioned for electricity supply, with two 400kV power lines from Deeside to Bangor (one via the coast and one via Trawsfynydd) and then on to Wylfa on Anglesey.
That's thanks to the former nuclear power stations, and the pumped storage schemes in Eryri.
There's a big National Grid substation next to the railway near Rockliffe Hall (built to feed the supply from Connah's Quay power station).
Plus the Capenhurst complex a few miles away on the Wirral, which I think powers Merseyrail south of the Mersey.
Then there's the connections to all those turbines in the Irish Sea, and the undersea interconnectors to Ireland and Hunterston, both coming onshore in the area.
 

The Planner

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North Wales is well-provisioned for electricity supply, with two 400kV power lines from Deeside to Bangor (one via the coast and one via Trawsfynydd) and then on to Wylfa on Anglesey.
That's thanks to the former nuclear power stations, and the pumped storage schemes in Eryri.
There's a big National Grid substation next to the railway near Rockliffe Hall (built to feed the supply from Connah's Quay power station).
Plus the Capenhurst complex a few miles away on the Wirral, which I think powers Merseyrail south of the Mersey.
Then there's the connections to all those turbines in the Irish Sea, and the undersea interconnectors to Ireland and Hunterston, both coming onshore in the area.
That isn't the issue, its the existing power supplies to the railway. If the feeds cannot cope with extra electric traction then you need a new one.
 

DarloRich

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the truth is that Chester is neither big enough nor important enough nor politically marginal enough to justify breaking the rules. It might get electrified IF NW coast gets done. That may be pie in the sky mind
 
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Energy

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It might get electrified IF NW coast gets done. That may be pie in the sky mind
North Wales electrification is politics only, its long and not that busy. Within Wales Swansea electrification should rank much more highly. If you treat Great Britain as a whole then North Wales is a long way down the list.

Even Chester/NW was electrified they are unlikely to go via HS2 unless the private North of Birmingham plan goes ahead. Handsacre is 6or7tph and NW is unlikely to get a path, unless combined with 1tph Liverpool at Crewe.

3tph Manchester
1tph Macclesfield
1tph Glasgow
1tph Liverpool
1tph Liverpool/Lancaster.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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North Wales electrification is politics only, its long and not that busy. Within Wales Swansea electrification should rank much more highly. If you treat Great Britain as a whole then North Wales is a long way down the list.
It is political, you are right, but it figured in the Hendy Connectivity Review about improving links between the four UK nations (and to ROI).
Dismissing the North Wales project goes against that aim, which is designed to keep the UK as an entity instead of fracturing into four.
I know the WG would spend it on electrification west of Cardiff, but that starts from a fully electric London-Cardiff base.
There would be uproar up here if the money was diverted to the south - much like the English north-south argument articulated by Andy Burnham.
London is not really the focus of travel, it's at least as much regional services to Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham that matter (including airports).
 

snowball

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My impression is that the Hendy connectivity review was a Boris Johnson idea, and that once he had gone, the government lost interest in it.
 
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The Crewe and Chester line is, I think, one of those built by Thomas Brassey. Of the approximately 40 overbridges, I think most are his originals, still in good condition and visually attractive, and they give the line much of its character. Whether they are listed, I don't know. But I think they may not be easy to lower the track under. The arches could be replaced, 1960s style, by concrete middle sections but again that would significantly alter the character of the line. Christleton Tunnel could also be a challenge. I hope that a way can be found of erecting continuous knitting and preserving the character of the line.

Current traffic levels, both between Crewe and Chester and on to Holyhead / Llandudno may make electrification hard to justify on hitherto applied criteria, but I hope we can all be more generous about it and splash out. I agree that electrification should also include the line to Warrington and hopefully also the CLC route from Mickle Trafford to Stockport. It will be important to keep all the lengths of double track and not do any singling.
 

sansyy

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Would this most likely require double tracking of the Halton curve then for electrification around that area?
 

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