Is there really a Class 255 and Class 257?????

JN114

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Doesn’t mean it officially exists though - it is just made up by GWR for internal purposes. “Computer says no” if you ask the national vehicle register for Class 255 or 257.
I mean, strictly speaking the national register will also say no if you put 43xxx in as a loco number, (or possibly show the withdrawn warships, it’s been a while since I played this game) all the power cars are still registered as coaching stock from their formative days as DEMU sets.

Officially, they are all Class 43s.
Commonly held view, but aside from a few data plates painted/stickered on powercars - almost all sectional appendix instructions, traction manuals, gauging certificates, statements of compatibility, train crew diagrams refer to them as 253/254 still. If they were officially something else, then there’s a lot of official documentation being produced even now that is wrong.

The argument has been done to death for years. Every time it has come up no one has ever been able to produce any kind of contemporary notice or memo detailing the change in classification - only that it happened a long time ago and despite almost all official documentation saying otherwise that they’re loco and coaches - coincidentally this all seems to have happened round about when most other loco hauled services were withdrawn.
 
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hexagon789

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I mean, strictly speaking the national register will also say no if you put 43xxx in as a loco number, (or possibly show the withdrawn warships, it’s been a while since I played this game) all the power cars are still registered as coaching stock from their formative days as DEMU sets.



Commonly held view, but aside from a few data plates painted/stickered on powercars - almost all sectional appendix instructions, traction manuals, gauging certificates, statements of compatibility, train crew diagrams refer to them as 253/254 still. If they were officially something else, then there’s a lot of official documentation being produced even now that is wrong.

The argument has been done to death for years. Every time it has come up no one has ever been able to produce any kind of contemporary notice or memo detailing the change in classification - only that it happened a long time ago and despite almost all official documentation saying otherwise that they’re loco and coaches - coincidentally this all seems to have happened round about when most other loco hauled services were withdrawn.
I thought I'd have a look at the BRB vehicle diagram books to see what they had -

In the October 1981 issue the power cars and trailers are in the DEMU book and have 253/254 classification; in the March 1987 book the power cars no longer appear in the DEMU book and the trailers no longer carry Class 253/254 numbers in the header.
 

Clansman

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If people are really implying that GWR's internal Class 255 designation is a universal term, then are they really suggesting that by default, GWR will have effectively forced ScotRail to designate their sets based on how they chose to designate their own?
 

pdeaves

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I thought I'd have a look at the BRB vehicle diagram books to see what they had -

In the October 1981 issue the power cars and trailers are in the DEMU book and have 253/254 classification; in the March 1987 book the power cars no longer appear in the DEMU book and the trailers no longer carry Class 253/254 numbers in the header.
The current sectional appendix has separate 'Mark 3' and 'class 43' entries in the coaching stock and locomotive clearance tables.

I think it's fair to say that a decision made a long time ago inadvertently caused confusion that is still with us today!
 

43096

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I mean, strictly speaking the national register will also say no if you put 43xxx in as a loco number, (or possibly show the withdrawn warships, it’s been a while since I played this game) all the power cars are still registered as coaching stock from their formative days as DEMU sets.
That is incorrect. On the national vehicle register (R2) they show as locomotives, and the EVN starts “92” which is the code for diesel locomotives.
 

43096

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Challenger were the shortened XC 2+5 sets, Pioneer full 2+8 VWC sets with two Trailer Firsts and a TRFB.
It wasn't that simple, as per the quote further up from the 125 Group website.

The Challenger fleet was intended for long term retention by Virgin and consisted of the worst condition members of the fleet as it was to undergo overhaul and refurbishment, and had dedicated set of diagram between Birmingham and Manchester/Blackpool. These sets were maintained by an Alstom/Maintrain consortium at Longsight. Of course Challenger never happened and the 22 power cars and 10 sets (plus 43091 from the Pioneer fleet and trailers to create 2+8 sets) were transferred to MML for Project Rio, where they did receive the overhauls.

The Pioneer fleet was to cover Voyager introduction and consisted of 25 power cars and 4 x 8-car sets (2TF TRSB 4TS TGS) for West Coast (largely North Wales) workings and a number of 5-car sets (TF TRSB 2TS TGS) to cover XC Voyager introduction. These were maintained by FGW at Laira under contract to Bombardier.

The 10 other power cars from the Virgin fleet had been transferred out by this stage to Network Rail (43013/014/062), GNER (43006/008) and MML (43007/104/166/178/184).
 

hexagon789

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It wasn't that simple, as per the quote further up from the 125 Group website.

The Challenger fleet was intended for long term retention by Virgin and consisted of the worst condition members of the fleet as it was to undergo overhaul and refurbishment, and had dedicated set of diagram between Birmingham and Manchester/Blackpool. These sets were maintained by an Alstom/Maintrain consortium at Longsight. Of course Challenger never happened and the 22 power cars and 10 sets (plus 43091 from the Pioneer fleet and trailers to create 2+8 sets) were transferred to MML for Project Rio, where they did receive the overhauls.

The Pioneer fleet was to cover Voyager introduction and consisted of 25 power cars and 4 x 8-car sets (2TF TRSB 4TS TGS) for West Coast (largely North Wales) workings and a number of 5-car sets (TF TRSB 2TS TGS) to cover XC Voyager introduction. These were maintained by FGW at Laira under contract to Bombardier.

The 10 other power cars from the Virgin fleet had been transferred out by this stage to Network Rail (43013/014/062), GNER (43006/008) and MML (43007/104/166/178/184).
We went through this before, I confess I couldn't remember exactly what you said last time so just quoted the bit from the 125Group and made some incorrectly inferences from that, seemingly the same ones as previously :oops:
 

gimmea50anyday

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Some of the west coast HST sets made appearances on the Saturday morning 09:03 PAD-MAN services then worked between there to Newquay or Paignton. Think one eventually ended up at Glasgow for the Sunday 15:00 GLC-PAD (1V96) to put it back in position ready for Monday morning service out of Euston. I certainly saw a difference on loadings on that train when it switched to 2x voyager, Solihull required rear 4 locked out but was a fail to call as a HST due to the platform length. I know which I preferred to work as an RSM back in the day...
 

gimmea50anyday

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Wonder if the fact they were challengers reflected in the fact it was a challenge to complete a diagram without breaking down...

5 car HST sets certainly made appearances on Bournemouth diagrams, 15:48 off Bournemouth was one as I picked it up at Reading (worked to Birmingham, 19:33 off there back to Paddington pass back, TM always made us bail at Reading)

I remember one Saturday there was a complaint regarding a specific early afternoon service being a 4 car voyager off Bournemouth and severely overcrowded in that it was leaving people behind at Southampton, so Chris Green went to inspect that service one Saturday afternoon in Reading. A Pioneer HST turned up, so happy as Larry off Chris trotted, as far as he was concerned that service had now been suitably allocated. Complaint resolved. Following Saturday, same train, what turns up? 4 car voyager!
 

43096

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Some of the west coast HST sets made appearances on the Saturday morning 09:03 PAD-MAN services then worked between there to Newquay or Paignton. Think one eventually ended up at Glasgow for the Sunday 15:00 GLC-PAD (1V96) to put it back in position ready for Monday morning service out of Euston. I certainly saw a difference on loadings on that train when it switched to 2x voyager, Solihull required rear 4 locked out but was a fail to call as a HST due to the platform length. I know which I preferred to work as an RSM back in the day...
Any ideas when that was?
 

jopsuk

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The answer to "is an HST a DMU or Loco + coaches?" is "yes".

So as far as I can summarise from the thread, whilst in the vehicle register and for clearance purposes the power cars and coaches are listed as locos and carriages, for diagramming and some other purposes they're designated as DEMUs, including some designations that they have never been registered as, but this is for the internal purposes of the TOC and is not definitive.

Problem is enthusiasts really do like things to be neat and "official". Reality is messy
 

43096

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The answer to "is an HST a DMU or Loco + coaches?" is "yes".

So as far as I can summarise from the thread, whilst in the vehicle register and for clearance purposes the power cars and coaches are listed as locos and carriages, for diagramming and some other purposes they're designated as DEMUs, including some designations that they have never been registered as, but this is for the internal purposes of the TOC and is not definitive.

Problem is enthusiasts really do like things to be neat and "official". Reality is messy
As you say, people like to be able to put things in neat boxes.

Just to throw something else into the mix to further blur it, HST power car maintenance has always been done on locomotive type maintenance regimes (was light, intermediate and general - at Derby Locomotive Works - and is now E, F and G exam).

Perhaps the answer is to refer to them as HSTs and just accept they are superior to other forms of traction?! :D
 

gimmea50anyday

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Any ideas when that was?
Would be 2003 when XC still ran in to London Paddington. Eventually in the wake of the failure of operation princess a massive shake-up of XC took place to make the network more resilient. Paddington was dropped the same time as Liverpool and Blackpool and the west coast VT3 route was split in to two at Manchester Piccadilly (this would eventually become TPEs west coast operations) although ECS services still operated out of Paddington using the paths (5M03, 5M07) to pick up the Reading based train crew, the Voyagers were serviced at Old Oak Common where the drivers were based. This was also about the same time the HSTs left VXC (although hire ins of GNER and FGW HSTs for summer Saturday work still took place) and the Stroud valley workings transferred to Great Western along with the 158s XC operated on that route transferred out.
 

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