Is there really that much difference between fare dodgers and split ticketers?

[phil35]

I've not really thought about this before, but I'm just looking at split ticketing from a different angle.

The general consensus on this forum is, esp. over long journeys, the ticket is going to be extortionally priced, so take advantage of the flawed system, spending a lot of time working out the best splits and trying to save every penny, sometimes reducing the standard walk on price by more than half (I guess could be £100+ in some examples). This is generally / encouraged on this forum.

Compare this to someone who chances getting a free ride on a 5 minute hopper train that would have cost £2.50. If the guard comes round (and not a penalty fare zone) he can pay, otherwise he gets a free ride.

The TOC believes for the journey the split ticketer made should have been £200, yet they only paid £100, costing the industry £100. Fare dodger cost the industry £2.50.

I know this is a very extreme example, and there's the case of repeated fare dodging (and repeated split-ticketing I guess). Obviously fare dodger travelled without a valid ticket, which is not allowed, but I'm thinking about this question with a more industry income focus.

I should note that I don't condone fare dodging in any way, and that I do, and will continue to, split ticket on a regular basis. Just wanted some controversial discussion

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a difference. Fare dodgers don't pay the fare; split ticketers do.

Not the customer's fault the rules can be archaic, is it?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Split ticketers go out of their way to find the best deal for their journey.

Fare dodgers go out of their way to pay as little as possible for their journey.

 

[Wolfie]

Not wishing to be offensive but that is a damn silly comparison. There is one heck of a difference between paying the price for goods/a service but looking to minimise the price paid and actually obtaining good/a service without payment.

Stretching your comparison further perhaps we should all only purchase goods at Harrods in future as it is unfair to them that other shops/websites sell the same item cheaper......

 

[parkender102]

Split Ticketing is completely within the law / terms and Conditions. I had a conversation with the lady at the ticket office at my local station the other day. She said although they don't advertise the fact, if someone comes up to the window and asks for tickets to a destination using a split ticket purchase they are bound by the Terms and Conditions to sell the person that ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Split Ticketing is completely within the law / terms and Conditions. I had a conversation with the lady at the ticket office at my local station the other day. She said although they don't advertise the fact, if someone comes up to the window and asks for tickets to a destination using a split ticket purchase they are bound by the Terms and Conditions to sell the person that ticket.

That's exactly correct. From the NRCoC:


19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[rail-britain]

There is a difference
Fare dodgers don't pay the fare; split ticketers do

Equally, the fare dodger boards the train without a ticket, or a ticket to a short destination (travelling further than intended)
The split ticketer has a ticket for each portion of the journey

 

[trickyvegas]

I think it should also be bourne in mind that split ticketers are also willing to accept a slower journey by taking a stopper that calls at the relevant station rather than a faster train.

 

[Chapeltom]

Is there really that much difference between fare dodgers and split ticketers?

Short answer, a world of difference. If I wanted to dodge my fares I'd do anything to avoid paying but if I want to get them cheap than the system wants me to and legitimately I will do so.

You can use any combination of valid tickets for journey, that's split ticketing and is legal. Fare dodging is openly avoiding paying altogether and that is illegal.

 

[Ferret]

Split ticketers go out of their way to find the best deal for their journey.

Fare dodgers go out of their way to pay as little as possible for their journey.

Hmmmmm, or put another way - split ticketers operate within the law and fare dodgers operate outside the law.

 

[Zoe]

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that while split ticketing is not fare dodging and the rules clearly allow split tickets to be used, it is not the right thing to do as the TOC clearly sets the price for the service it provides from station A to station B and that's would you should expect to pay.

 

[trickyvegas]

Split Ticketing is completely within the law / terms and Conditions. I had a conversation with the lady at the ticket office at my local station the other day. She said although they don't advertise the fact, if someone comes up to the window and asks for tickets to a destination using a split ticket purchase they are bound by the Terms and Conditions to sell the person that ticket.

I'm not going to provide details in case it gets the individual in trouble but the very first time I encountered it was at the suggestion of someone in a ticket office when I had requested a direct ticket. I have also had instances where I have been made aware of a cheaper split than the one I had requested on a few occasions.

 

[phil35]

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that while split ticketing is not fare dodging and the rules clearly allow split tickets to be used, it is not the right thing to do as the TOC clearly sets the price for the service it provides from station A to station B and that's would you should expect to pay.

That's kind of what I was getting at. As I mentioned in the OP, I realise one is completely within the law and one isn't, and because of this fare dodging is always wrong. I think you've summarised there what I was trying to get across: TOC thinks a journey from A to B should be £x, therefore shouldn't we have to pay that price, regardless of whether we think the price is reasonable or not?

And because we go out of our way to get around this, the industry loses revenue.

 

[moonrakerz]

The general consensus on this forum is, esp. over long journeys, the ticket is going to be extortionally priced, so take advantage of the flawed system, spending a lot of time working out the best splits and trying to save every penny,

Well - what exactly is wrong with that ? For a start, your statement "the ticket is going to be extortionally priced," is not necessarily true. You are attempting to justify a somewhat shaky argument by making a somewhat extreme statement from the outset.
The system is not "flawed", it may have a lot of peculiarities in it - but, amazingly many of those have actually come about through the rail companies offering CHEAPER fares on some routes to attract more trade.

I am in the process of getting tickets to go to/from Sheffield from Warminster. A "direct" ticket is £58.20 (hardly "extortionate", for a start); split ticketing/different routing/advances gets me £30.80 - it didn't take "a lot of time" either. Should I not do that ? I am afraid it didn't prick my conscience one tiny bit

I bought a lettuce in Lidl this morning as it was cheaper than Morrisons - does that make me a shoplifter ?? Should Lidl be forced to sell at the most expensive price of its competitors ?
In 1964 the Resale Prices Act was passed, which considered all resale price agreements to be against public interest, prior to this Act being passed there was NO competition on anything - everything cost the same everywhere - as dictated by the manufacturer/importer !! I don't think we want to go that way again.

As I have said on previous occasions when this, and related, topics arise, it always strikes me a being a case of: "if I can't get that cheap fare - why should anyone else!"

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Split Ticketing is completely within the law / terms and Conditions. I had a conversation with the lady at the ticket office at my local station the other day. She said although they don't advertise the fact, if someone comes up to the window and asks for tickets to a destination using a split ticket purchase they are bound by the Terms and Conditions to sell the person that ticket.

I'm not going to provide details in case it gets the individual in trouble but the very first time I encountered it was at the suggestion of someone in a ticket office when I had requested a direct ticket. I have also had instances where I have been made aware of a cheaper split than the one I had requested on a few occasions.

Ticket office clerks must offer the cheapest through fare for the journey being made, unless the 'customer' requests a specific fare. They may choose to offer a cheaper combination of fares, but they do not have to. Equally, if they offer a cheaper combination of fares, you do not have to accept it.

Hmmmmm, or put another way - split ticketers operate within the law and fare dodgers operate outside the law.

Well, yes. No-one wants to pay more than they have to, but the defining line, I think, is precisely that.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

it is not the right thing to do as the TOC clearly sets the price for the service it provides from station A to station B and that's would you should expect to pay.

Tesco sets the price of a cheesecake at £5 but you can buy vanilla essence, cream, biscuits and cream cheese for £3. It is unfair for me to buy the ingredients separately though, because Tesco clearly feel the price of a cheesecake is £5.

Tescos sells Carlsberg for £5 for a four pack, but my local sells them for £1 per can. If I buy from my local I am defrauding Carlsberg because I could have bought it more expensive somewhere else.

Complete baloney, the TOCs set ALL of the fares including the split fares and it is my *duty* as a good consumer and steward of my resources to make judgments about value based on cost and quality.

 

[Zoe]

Ticket office clerks must offer the cheapest through fare for the journey being made

So if someone turns up asking for a ticket for a journey the next day, do you have to offer them the advance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Complete baloney, the TOCs set ALL of the fares including the split fares.

In some cases the through fare may be set by a different TOC.

 

[Clip]

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that while split ticketing is not fare dodging and the rules clearly allow split tickets to be used, it is not the right thing to do as the TOC clearly sets the price for the service it provides from station A to station B and that's would you should expect to pay.

They do indeed. But they all price journeys for intermittent stops between A to B.

call them a,b,c,d if you like. Now they have to price these journeys up in some way too but if they are pricing them so that A to a then a to b then b to c then c to d then d to B works out cheaper then the fare from A to B then whose fault is that?

I even split my journey to New Zealand at Bangkok and got it cheaper with two singles then it was to go all the way on one ticket.

Do you not think this is a good thing for a passenger to be able to do? I do.

 

[Zoe]

See above, in some cases the through fare is set by a different TOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So if someone turns up asking for a ticket for a journey the next day, do you have to offer them the advance?....

If it is available and the cheapest fare, yes, they should also make the restrictions clear though.

 

[Clip]

So if someone turns up asking for a ticket for a journey the next day, do you have to offer them the advance?

Yes, you do. Or they should be doing so if it is available

 

[Oswyntail]

I can see some sense in what the OP says, in that both cases are depriving the industry of income, albeit legally in one case. Leaving aside the habitual criminals, for whom paying for anything is anathema, is this not a sign of a seriously flawed system? In terms of economics both imply that the original fare is set too high, requiring other market means to reduce the price. The traditional means of doing this, haggling, is ruled out - can you imagine what the effect in the ticket office would be? The TOCs take the Tesco approach of special offers combined with "Value" fares (where the quality of the product is reduced by having flexibility removed); split fares are the equivalent of finding a back-street shop doing a good deal, but made harder to find because it relies on word of mouth.

 

[Scotty]

The TOC believes for the journey the split ticketer made should have been £200, yet they only paid £100, costing the industry £100. Fare dodger cost the industry £2.50.

Or you can look at it another way...

Split ticketer pays £100, fare dodger pays £0.

What do you think the TOCs prefer?

 

[island]

Sounds to me like the distinction between tax avoidance and tax evasion

 

[Failed Unit]

So if someone turns up asking for a ticket for a journey the next day, do you have to offer them the advance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In some cases the through fare may be set by a different TOC.

Why should that matter? In some case you get longer distances that are priced cheaper than shorter flows. I know some examples where xc price flows and advice is give to season ticket holders to go for the longer distance priced by FGW.

Peterborough - birmingham is a very strange example as EMT price part of the split but when CT created that they wanted to discourage people from using Day returns on the route.

 

[Zoe]

Why should that matter? In some case you get longer distances that are priced cheaper than shorter flows.

The point is that you are denying one TOC revenue due to the fare setting policy of another TOC, outside of their control.

 

[SWTCommuter]

The point is that you are denying one TOC revenue due to the fare setting policy of another TOC, outside of their control.

And if there was true competition in the railway industry, the higher-priced TOC would have to reduce its fares to compete with the lower-priced one. As it only has to offer passengers the lowest priced through ticket, it gets away with charging a higher fare because most passengers won't be aware they could pay less by splitting.

 

[Failed Unit]

The point is that you are denying one TOC revenue due to the fare setting policy of another TOC, outside of their control.

Welcome to privatisation, is it fair that xc can set a Newcastle to Morpeth fare with sole purpose of damaging northern. Sorry I have no sympathy with TOCs here.

 

[fulshaw]

Ticket office staff have suggested splits to me in the past as I asked for the cheapest ticket to x. Only saved £ 2 but was grateful for the advice. Key is that the train has to stop at the stations at which you split your ticket but all perfectly legit.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ticket office staff have suggested splits to me in the past as I asked for the cheapest ticket to x. Only saved £ 2 but was grateful for the advice. Key is that the train has to stop at the stations at which you split your ticket but all perfectly legit.

You can even get off and back on again if you feel that splitting is wrong so you have physically completed 2 journeys.