Is there really that much difference between fare dodgers and split ticketers?

[12CSVT]

To use shops as a comparison :

Go to shop 'X' where there is a 2 for the price of 1 offer on the item you intend to buy
Or go to shop 'Y' and purchase the intended item but shoplift an identical item

Same price, same number of items, one was within the law, the other wasn't.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Sounds to me like the distinction between tax avoidance and tax evasion

Exactly right. Tax avoidance is a consequence of a flawed system. Tax evasion is the consequence of a dishonest individual.

Split ticketing is a consequence of a flawed system. Fare evasion is the consequence of a dishonest individual.
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The point is that you are denying one TOC revenue due to the fare setting policy of another TOC, outside of their control.

I don't see the relevance, and I reject the notion that it is "outside of their control". Fares are within the control of the industry. It is not the consumer's fault or concern if the control system for fares is flawed. It has no relevance to the moral question raised by the OP.

 

[WestCoast]

The point is that you are denying one TOC revenue due to the fare setting policy of another TOC, outside of their control.

Couldn't care less quite frankly, it's still valid and it's not the fault of the passenger that Britain has a fragmented rail system with complex ticketing. And I've been accused of being anti-passenger....

Do you worry about Tesco not selling an item because you buy the same product cheaper at Morrisons?

 

[moonrakerz]

Tax avoidance is a consequence of a flawed system.
Split ticketing is a consequence of a flawed system.

That just isn't so - tax avoidance is reducing one's tax liability by perfectly LEGAL methods. It doesn't mean the tax system is "flawed" any more than the ticketing system is "flawed".

 

[Zoe]

Do you worry about Tesco not selling an item because you buy the same product cheaper at Morrisons?

That's not the same. You wouldn't expect to buy something in Tesco at Morrison's prices. There fare between two stations is set by a TOC. Other TOCs are not setting the same fare between two stations except where a TOC specific ticket is available. The rules allow you to use split tickets where fares are set by another TOC on a service run by the TOC that sets the through fare. This is denying revenue to the TOC that set the fare.

 

[Failed Unit]

That's not the same. You wouldn't expect to buy something in Tesco at Morrison's prices. There fare between two stations is set by a TOC. Other TOCs are not setting the same fare between two stations except where a TOC specific ticket is available. The rules allow you to use split tickets where fares are set by another TOC on a service run by the TOC that sets the through fare. This is denying revenue to the TOC that set the fare.

As others have said, life is tough and the TOC setting the high fare shouldn't rip off passengers.

 

[WestCoast]

The rules allow you to use split tickets where fares are set by another TOC on a service run by the TOC that sets the through fare. This is denying revenue to the TOC that set the fare.

And this is the passenger's problem because....?

How is the average passenger supposed to know that Ticket A is set by XC and is valid, but a combination of tickets B and C are set by FGW and are still valid. It's none of their concern who sets the fare, ORCATS distributes revenue to appropriate TOCs.

The TOC used may gain less through split ticketing, but that is entirely the system's fault. NRCoC permits the action, the passenger is following the rules. Only in Britain! Why should they have to protect revenue by paying a higher fare, when dodgers often pay nothing?


In fact, some friendly staff will even suggest spilts to you if you ask nicely.

 

[Zoe]

It's none of their concern who sets the fare, ORCATS distributes revenue to appropriate TOCs.

The TOC that sets the fare is deciding what you should pay for that journey. If someone uses split tickets then they are paying less than what the TOC have decide the fare will be for that journey, regardless of the fact that revenue is split by ORCATS they will still be losing revenue.

 

[Failed Unit]

The other thing Zoe, I want to travel from London - Edinburgh. Hypothetically it is cheaper to split at Darlington, would you feel better about it if i got on the 930 East coast service, got off had a beer and got on the following east coast service? You are doing the same thing!
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The TOC that sets the fare is deciding what you should pay for that journey. If someone uses split tickets then they are paying less than what the TOC have decide the fare will be for that journey, regardless of the fact that revenue is split by ORCATS they will still be losing revenue.

Then perhaps they shouldn't try and rip off passengers in the first place, maybe offer cheap day return tickets etc.

 

[Zoe]

The other thing Zoe, I want to travel from London - Edinburgh. Hypothetically it is cheaper to split at Darlington, would you feel better about it if i got on the 930 East coast service, got off had a beer and got on the following east coast service? You are doing the same thing!

It's not my personal opinion, I am just stating why splitting can be seen as not the right thing to do. The decision on if you split or not is of course your own.

Then perhaps they shouldn't try and rip off passengers in the first place, maybe offer cheap day return tickets etc.

Indeed but the reality is the railways are run as a profit making business and not a public service so maximizing revenue should be expected.

 

[WestCoast]

The TOC that sets the fare is deciding what you should pay for that journey. If someone uses split tickets then they are paying less than what the TOC have decide the fare will be for that journey, regardless of the fact that revenue is split by ORCATS they will still be losing revenue.

I think you're missing something, even if you do buy a through ticket it may not be priced by the main TOC you are using. I could buy a Poulton-le-Fylde to Frodsham day return, I could take the entire journey on TPE, Virgin and ATW, yet Northern price the fare. It is impossible to travel the whole way with Northern, or even part of the way without massive time penalty!

If Virgin priced the fare (as the bulk of journey operator) I suspect it would be considerably more expensive, but Northern price it cheaper instead. You cannot avoid that.

If I split the ticket at Preston, Virgin would probably get more revenue!

Britain has a poor system, that is obvious. There are endless examples of TOCs pricing fares, which don't seem appropriate.

If TOCs want to get full revenue, advance tickets are the only way, without TOC specific tickets!

 

[Zoe]

I think you're missing something, even if you do buy a through ticket it may not be priced by the main TOC you are using. I could buy a Poulton-le-Fylde to Frodsham day return, I could take the entire journey on TPE, Virgin and ATW, yet Northern price the fare. I cannot do the most direct route on Northern!

It's quite simple, the TOC that sets the fare decides what you should pay for that journey. Other companies can offer TOC specific fares between the same stations. If you don't think it's right that Northern set the fare then the issue that needs to be looked at is how it is decided who sets the fares.

 

[WestCoast]

It's quite simple, the TOC that sets the fare decides what you should pay for that journey. Other companies can offer TOC specific fares between the same stations. If you don't think it's right that Northern set the fare then the issue that needs to be looked at is how it is decided who sets the fares.

Yes, but in many cases, the TOC that sets the fare doesn't run the trains! So, the TOC that runs the trains has no say in the matter. How is that different to split ticketing, where another TOC sets the fare for a portion of the journey?

I want Northern to set the fare, they will price it more affordably than another TOC would.

That is perfect example of why ticketing in Britain is very poor, compared with other countries. TOC specific tickets are making the situation even more complicated.

Walk-up fares can be outrageously high in this country, it's the difference between travelling by train and not travelling by train for me. If I don't travel because the through fare is too high, the TOC gains NO REVENUE whatsoever. If I don't split, I don't go - it's the case for many.

Why should someone be forced to buy an Anytime Return on a journey when they can buy two Day Returns by splitting? Often this is the same company setting the fare!

 

[Captain Chaos]

Here's a comparison for you then:

In Tesco's a few months ago there was a "Special offer" on smoked back bacon. 3 packets for £6.

However the actual price of the packets was £1.97 meaning three individual packets in total should cost £5.91. However when rung through the till you are charged £6 and not £5.91.

In order to get the cheaper and best price I have to split the purchase and buy two packs first and then one pack on it's own to pay the cheaper price. There is nothing Tesco's can do about me doing this as I am purchasing all the items and not attempting to steal them and they are more than happy to allow me to do this.

Surely this is the same scenario as split ticketing?

Oh and BTW I am not making this up. Next time you go shopping look at the tag price and then the special offer price and you will be amazed the amount of times these "special offers" are actually a rip-off. If it is perfectly legal for you to split a purchase at Tesco's in order to save money and according to NrCoC it is also perfectly legal to split the purchase of tickets in order to save money then I don't see the issue.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's not my personal opinion, I am just stating why splitting can be seen as not the right thing to do. The decision on if you split or not is of course your own.


Indeed but the reality is the railways are run as a profit making business and not a public service so maximizing revenue should be expected.

But the reason I have no sympathy with the TOCs is the way some predatory price. Look at XC with some of the Edinburgh - Glasgow fares, they are denying scotrail money? Are scotrail ripping us off because they don't offer a mega cheap fares.

Remember as well sometimes it is the operators own fault. As I said CT didn't want to offer cheap day returns between Peterborough and Birmingham. They did a mega large increase, but people wanted to go on cheap days hence the split which previously would be more expensive.

 

[northwichcat]

Look at it another way.

A passenger making a 2 hour journey at 08:30 buys a peak return and an off-peak return for his/her journey to get the cheapest fare. If they had bought only a peak return then they would be travelling on a peak ticket at 10:15 still, while someone else who boarded the same train at 9:45 and alighted at 10:15 paid an off-peak fare.

 

[Zoe]

Yes, but in many cases, the TOC that sets the fare doesn't run the trains! So, the TOC that runs the trains has no say in the matter. How is that different to split ticketing, where another TOC sets the fare for a portion of the journey?

Northern must cleary get an ORCATS share for the route or they wouldn't set the fare. The fact is that Northern have decided what the fare should be and what they expect you to pay. The other TOCs are free to introduce TOC specific fares. In the case of split ticketing though, the TOC that sets the fare for the full journey decides what you should pay, if you split then you are denying them the revenue that it could be argued they deserve as it's their right to set the fare for that route.

 

[WestCoast]

Northern must cleary get an ORCATS share for the route or they wouldn't set the fare. The fact is that Northern have decided what the fare should be and what they expect you to pay. The other TOCs are free to introduce TOC specific fares. In the case of split ticketing though, the TOC that sets the fare for the full journey decides what you should pay, if you split then you are denying them the revenue that it could be argued they deserve as it's their right to set the fare for that route.

Northern must get an ORCATS share for the short Poulton-le-Fylde - Preston segment. Beyond that, the bulk of the journey is Virgin.

You won't be able to explain this one: CrossCountry set the walk-up fare for Manchester Stations - Edinburgh Route: Carlisle. They operate no trains on this route whatsoever, lead operators are TPE and Virgin. So, the main operator, TPE, has no say.

 

[Failed Unit]

Northern must cleary get an ORCATS share for the route or they wouldn't set the fare. The fact is that Northern have decided what the fare should be and what they expect you to pay. The other TOCs are free to introduce TOC specific fares. In the case of split ticketing though, the TOC that sets the fare for the full journey decides what you should pay, if you split then you are denying them the revenue that it could be argued they deserve as it's their right to set the fare for that route.

Wrong, if XC set the expensive direct fare, and FGW set the splits then XC still get a share of the revenue. On the peterbourgh - Stamford fare set by EMT it is XC that gets the majority of the revenue as dominant operator.

 

[Zoe]

Wrong, if XC set the expensive direct fare, and FGW set the splits then XC still get a share of the revenue.

I was not saying XC don't get any revenue. The fact is though that they are denied revenue that it could be argued the deserve as the total revenue from the split will be lower than with the through fare.

 

[Daimler]

That's kind of what I was getting at. As I mentioned in the OP, I realise one is completely within the law and one isn't, and because of this fare dodging is always wrong. I think you've summarised there what I was trying to get across: TOC thinks a journey from A to B should be £x, therefore shouldn't we have to pay that price, regardless of whether we think the price is reasonable or not?

And because we go out of our way to get around this, the industry loses revenue.

I've arrived a little late to this discussion, but surely there's a flaw here:

Let's say there are three places on a line - A, B, and C. The combined price of tickets between A & B and B & C is less than the price of a ticket between A & C.

Surely, by setting the price of the ticket between A & C at a higher price than A-B + B-C, the TOC is ripping off the customer by charging more for exactly the same 'goods' than it would charge to two people buying the 'goods' separately - rather like a meal deal, say, where the 'deal' costs more than the individual items combined.

 

[WestCoast]

I was not saying XC don't get any revenue. The fact is though that they are denied revenue that it could be argued the deserve as the total revenue from the split will be lower than with the through fare.

Until they set fair walk-up tickets, this will continue happening.

The setting of ticket prices isn't anywhere near as clear cut as you think it is. Look at my example above and explain why XC set the fare on that route, when they don't operate any trains on it (in fact you can't go on an XC train at all!).

 

[Failed Unit]

I was not saying XC don't get any revenue. The fact is though that they are denied revenue that it could be argued the deserve as the total revenue from the split will be lower than with the through fare.

They may not be. Penzance - Birmingham is priced by them, but they may get a greater share if you split a Plymouth as they may get a better share of one of the splits. Someone may by XC only tickets on the split rather than the inter-available ticket. It isn't clear cut.

I can't remember where it is but I think the Bournemouth - Oxford season is more expensive than the Poole - Oxford. Could have the stations wrong but anyone would be crazy to buy the shorter expensive ticket.

You argument seems to be based on morals, but as TOCs have none then neither should we.

 

[Zoe]

At the end of the day it's up to you if you split or not, I was simply stating possible reasons to consider in your decision to split. I am not personally saying it is the right or wrong thing to do.

 

[WestCoast]

At the end of the day it's up to you if you split or not, I was simply stating possible reasons to consider in your decision to split. I am not personally saying it is the right or wrong thing to do.

When through fares are reduced in line with split fares I won't do it. It's a perfectly legitimate thing to do and I have had staff sympathizing with me about it.

Many though fares don't offer day returns, hence I split. Otherwise I wouldn't go, I am not particularly interested in who sets the fare - many won't know! It's not that easy to find out if you don't have the Avantix database or know how to look it up on National Rail. My possible considerations when splitting are:

1) Will it limit my route and connections?
2) How much of a saving is there?

 

[Failed Unit]

I think captain chaos sums it up well, I will slightly alter his analogy. You want 200g of coffee. You go to a supermarket, 200g costs £2 and 100g costs 75p. You buy 2x 100g and deny the supermarket 50p in the process it is not illegal as you have paid for 200g just not the price the supermarket wants you to for doing it in one transaction. This happens and the newspapers are on it with rip off Britian! However doing exactly the same thing on the railway is acceptable?

 

[Zoe]

Another issue is where you can save by splitting where there is only one TOC. The Swindon to London walk-up fare is quite expensive as discussed in another thread and you can save quite a bit by splitting at Didcot. I understand this goes back to the decision to split the operations of BR into sectors and so Day Returns were available in the Network SouthEast area from Didcot to London but none from Swindon to London as this was Intercity. The Intercity services became Great Western (later FGW) and the NetworkSouthEast services were taken over by Thames Trains. Eventually FGW won the Greater Western franchise and operated all services but the expesnive fares from Swindon still remain. FGW could introduce a cheaper walk-up (Day Return) fare from Swindon to London and this would likely result in less people splitting but I can't see them doing this is they would lose revenue. In their defence though they have introduced a range of very cheap advance fares from Swindon to London but this isn't always very useful for a journey to London where there are at least four trains per hour and a journey time of around one hour.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think captain chaos sums it up well, I will slightly alter his analogy. You want 200g of coffee. You go to a supermarket, 200g costs £2 and 100g costs 75p. You buy 2x 100g and deny the supermarket 50p in the process it is not illegal as you have paid for 200g just not the price the supermarket wants you to for doing it in one transaction. This happens and the newspapers are on it with rip off Britian! However doing exactly the same thing on the railway is acceptable?

My point exactly. This sort of thing happens quite often in most retail environments. I fail to see why it should be an issue because it is to do with railway ticketing.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to throw another point into the thread that has not been mentioned yet, what if the person with the split tickets is on a service that does NOT stop at the station they split at.

Then the split-ticketer becomes a fare-dodger as well. But in some cases will still tell me "You should be down the train looking for fare-dodgers, not hassling me".

And a surprising number of people on split tickets at Didcot (despite my announcements on-train) argue with me that "Nobody else has a problem with it" when I charge them up.

They have crossed the line between looking for the cheapest way of doing the journey to attempting to make the journey "with the intent to avoid payment of the fare due" (as the UPFN pad so succinctly puts it).

 

[Yew]

Oh and BTW I am not making this up. Next time you go shopping look at the tag price and then the special offer price and you will be amazed the amount of times these "special offers" are actually a rip-off. If it is perfectly legal for you to split a purchase at Tesco's in order to save money and according to NrCoC it is also perfectly legal to split the purchase of tickets in order to save money then I don't see the issue.

You should have put them all through, the told them at customer services, and got double the differance refunded


Also, From a Vector geometry point of view, Going from A to B, then B to C, is identical to taking the same route from A to C