Is university really right for everyone?

[Scotrail12]

I've stuck it out for 3 years but frankly I disagree with the sentiment that it's the 'best time of your life' and that it's where everyone has to go and excels at what they do.

I think that we force people through a sausage machine of having to do things an exact way to get a qualification. It's so rigid, people are forced into it and told it's the only way to succeed but I don't feel that their way of doing things is right for everybody. I feel like there should be more space for creativity. I got an essay back today where I was told it was a really enjoyable read, well written and has lots of knowledge on the subject. However, it apparently doesn't read like an academic essay so he couldn't give me as high of a mark as it deserved. That put things into perspective for me and is making me begin to think that uni is holding me back from my full potential.

What are your thoughts on uni? Should everyone go? Is it right for everyone? Should we allow more creativity/individuality? I'm interested to know your thoughts because we do really encourage a lot of students to go to university but with the number of people who go each year, it's surely inevitable that some of them would be better served elsewhere?

 

[yorkie]

I've stuck it out for 3 years but frankly I disagree with the sentiment that it's the 'best time of your life' and that it's where everyone has to go and excels at what they do.

It is the case for some people but by no means all.

I think that we force people through a sausage machine of having to do things an exact way to get a qualification. It's so rigid, people are forced into it and told it's the only way to succeed but I don't feel that their way of doing things is right for everybody.

I completely agree; it certainly isn't.

I feel like there should be more space for creativity. I got an essay back today where I was told it was a really enjoyable read, well written and has lots of knowledge on the subject. However, it apparently doesn't read like an academic essay so he couldn't give me as high of a mark as it deserved. That put things into perspective for me and is making me begin to think that uni is holding me back from my full potential.

What are your thoughts on uni?

It should be an option; it's the right thing for some people but not others.

Should everyone go? Is it right for everyone?

Definitely not!

Should we allow more creativity/individuality? I'm interested to know your thoughts because we do really encourage a lot of students to go to university but with the number of people who go each year, it's surely inevitable that some of them would be better served elsewhere?

I agree we spend too much time and effort trying to encourage too many students to go to Uni. We should focus on more vocational courses, apprenticeships, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree we spend too much time and effort trying to encourage too many students to go to Uni. We should focus on more vocational courses, apprenticeships, etc.

I would echo this. Some (such as me) took the university path and were very happy with it, but it makes no sense for it to be the "sausage machine" as was mentioned above. A further benefit of reducing numbers going would be that it might be affordable to make it free again (equivalent apprenticeships and similar schemes would also be free to the student in terms of the education so could be paid a better wage, that they can be paid less than minimum is scandalous).

 

[najaB]

What are your thoughts on uni? Should everyone go? Is it right for everyone?

No. People should only go into further education if and when they can see that it will help them with a career, or if they have a genuine desire to know more about the chosen subject.

The idea that further education is something that you "must" do is just wrong.

 

[SargeNpton]

It was a stated ambition of a previous government that 50% of all school leavers would go to university - but do 50% of jobs require university-level qualifications?

If the answer to the latter is no then the ambition of the former will just result in some wasting their time when they could have been earning (or taking further education more focused on their intended career).

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main issue is that plenty of entry level junior jobs do ask for a degree these days (or at the very least will filter out those who don't have one). If you start more strictly restricted who can and who can't go to university, you put those who don't go a huge disadvantage in the jobs market. You can (rightly) argue that if as many people didn't go to uni they wouldn't be able to do that, but sadly the ship has sailed and we are now in a situation where the kind of jobs my father went into at age 16 now ask for a degree! We are starting to see that ease up a little, plenty of companies are talking about their apprenticeships schemes and even for jobs that had the university route as the common way in we are seeing some alternatives (E.g. coding bootcamps instead of a Computer Science degree), but it will be a while before people who don't have a degree aren't severally disadvantaged when it comes to getting jobs.

 

[westv]

It's now at expectation rather than an aspiration.

 

[DarloRich]

I would encourage everyone to go to university, if they can. Don't be put of by people who tell you it isn't for you or that you aren't the right sort. You are. Why don't Tories want people like you and me to go to university?

By the same token for people who don't want to or aren't able to go to university we should have high quality vocational courses that offer the same access to the wider jobs market and salary as a degree and are not just some kind of office junior role dressed up as something it isn't.

We are supposed to be moving to a high skills economy. How can we do that without high quality further/additional educational opportunities for everyone?

 

[jfollows]

"No" is my answer to your question; when I went to university about 14% of school leavers went (<4% in my father's day), now it's about 40%, and something like 25% of jobs require a university degree. So if you're headed towards this sort of job, it should colour your thinking. It's a good way to leave home, it worked for me and my sister; my brother went into the Royal Navy. But it's expensive and questionable value for money these days. And, in your specific case, if you're being marked down for not being "academic" enough, that sounds a little silly to me if you're not planning an academic career.
I ended up doing 4 years as an undergraduate, it was a year too long, but I failed my first year so count myself lucky that I worked my way through the system.
It can also be a good experience, to build on in later life, so that may make the money worth it alone.
But in the end I think it's an important decision and deciding not to go to university for the right reasons will usually make sense.

 

[westv]

By the same token for people who don't want to or aren't able to go to university we should have high quality vocational courses that offer the same access to the wider jobs market and salary as a degree and are not just some kind of office junior role dressed up as something it isn't.

Sorry, but many people started as office juniors as went on to have very successful careers. To start at the bottom is not to be sneered at.

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry, but many people started as office juniors as went on to have very successful careers. To start at the bottom is not to be sneered at.

There is no sneering - far from it - but there are reports in the media of people doing apprenticeships that are nothing of the sort and who are not getting good quality skills from those schemes.

EDIT - I simply want people to get a good quality education that equips them with skills, knowledge and experiance to achieve as high paying as possible, long term and stable career.

 

[jfollows]

I'm also conflicted on the "value for money" thing. When I went to university the tuition was paid and I was given a means-tested grant which my parents made up, and I managed to live on this for four years and come out with no debts. Now there's a serious loan to pay off. And senior politicians such as Theresa May and Boris Johnson benefitted from the system I had, but now make students pay a lot more themselves. Maybe it's fairer to do so, but ironically it was more unfair when 86% of the population subsidised the 14% who went to university, now the question is whether the 60% should do similarly and the answer here appears to be "no". But, with the wisdom of hindsight, coming out of the system and into a job with no debts was very helpful to me then - I was able to buy a house and a car reasonably soon, for example.

 

[najaB]

I'm also conflicted on the "value for money" thing. When I went to university the tuition was paid and I was given a means-tested grant which my parents made up, and I managed to live on this for four years and come out with no debts. Now there's a serious loan to pay off.

Which goes back to the point I was making - go into further education if you can see that it will (or at least should) be of benefit to your career. Don't go just because you feel that it's something that you're 'supposed' to do.

I lectured first-year computer science for a couple of years after finishing my degree and it was obvious that some people were there because they had a genuine academic interest, some were there because it fit into their career plans, but a disturbing number were there simply because they'd finished secondary school.

 

[Magdalia]

It was a stated ambition of a previous government that 50% of all school leavers would go to university - but do 50% of jobs require university-level qualifications?

No. This was a classic misunderstanding of correlation as cause and effect. Just because rich countries spend a lot on education, that doesn't mean that spending a lot on education makes a country rich.

The 50% target also sent a message to the 50% who didn't go to University that somehow they mattered less than the 50% who did, and that's had long term consequences.

It's a good way to leave home

That was the main benefit for me! I think it is sad that some students go away to University then end up back with their parents.

many people started as office juniors as went on to have very successful careers

I think that I could have got to the same place without going to University, but it would have taken longer. On the other hand I would have been earning money more quickly, at a time when it wasn't possible to borrow against expected future earnings. I went to University in the days of grants and the loans system would have been a deterrent for me.

I disagree with the sentiment that it's the 'best time of your life' and that it's where everyone has to go and excels at what they do.

It is for some but not for all. I recommend it most for people who are not happy with where or who they are. For them University is a wonderful opportunity to start with a clean slate. Looking back I wish I'd made more of that opportunity.

 

[Kite159]

It was a stated ambition of a previous government that 50% of all school leavers would go to university - but do 50% of jobs require university-level qualifications?

If the answer to the latter is no then the ambition of the former will just result in some wasting their time when they could have been earning (or taking further education more focused on their intended career).

Although sadly those entry level jobs which don't need someone to have a degree to be able to do have been changed so you need to have a degree if you want to apply.

Even if said degree is for something completely different from the job area. A random tick box which puts those who don't have a degree (i.e. went straight into work after A levels) at a disadvantage.

 

[LowLevel]

I went for a year 15 years ago. It was an expensive mistake as it turns out I am a poor and undisciplined student who struggles with work deadlines, but am excellent at calmly reacting to developments in real time. Consequently I dropped out, got a job that got me by for 3 years then started a well paid career on the railway that hasn't seen me wrong yet.

It was not for me, despite going to a good university with nice facilities.

 

[GS250]

I agree there are too many jobs that require a degree to pass through HR. The actual job itself could be attained with a 1 year vocational course. Any post development could be attained with job related training.

There's also the dubious social/political values that are a big part of University culture. I've two younger 2nd cousins, both very similar in outlook and behaviour. Balanced and generally reasonable kids. Around 15 years ago one went through University and the other left A levels to do a 3 year electricians course. One is now successfully running a small electrical business, the other, whilst has worked intermittently, became a bitter, angry and unreasonable civilian thanks to getting involved with the SJW faction that is active at many universities. To compound matters, they went back to university to undertake another degree and take on yet more debt!

University has its place. Trust me, if you want to be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer etc then a degree is a required stepping stone onto the actual job training.

However....there are other ways to achieve an 'education' than through academic environments.

 

[jfollows]

thanks to getting involved with the SJW faction that is active at many universities.

Social Justice Warrior? Mind you, I don't know what that means anyway.

 

[kristiang85]

I can't really remember anything of the academic side of university; I ticked my boxes and got my degree.

But in terms of life experience, getting out of my southern bubble, building one of my largest friendship networks and establishing the career path i eventually went down (nothing to do with the degree itself), it was by far the most significant 3 years of my life. I do not regret it one bit.

However, I did not pay £9k to do it, and I did not have all the fun parts of university stunted by COVID restrictions, so I wholly understand those who are graduating now and don't see the same benefits. I think all the things I got out of it would have been impossible had I been to university in the last couple of years, and current graduates have my unending sympathy.

 

[johntea]

Not at all, I was in a job at 17, hated college and how they seemed to only want to support students going on to university rather than into employment - I'm earning a very respectable wage now despite not having a degree or even great GCSE / A Level qualifications for that matter

I actually found the hardest part of getting a job not so much the education but the experience - particularly with a first job you're a bit stuck as you obviously can't gain said experience until you get offered a job to begin with! Apprenticeship schemes are luckily a lot more common these days which would have suited me a lot more, and in fact I've looked after apprentices in the past who have gone on to become full time members of the team when vacancies arose

 

[NorthOxonian]

It's a difficult one. I think my answer to the question would be no, and in particular I think the conventional route into university is probably too narrow.

I can only speak from personal experience and for how things are at my uni, but I felt completely thrown into the deep end. At sixth form I had found my studies a breeze, had a large friendship group providing strong support networks, and was relatively dependent on my parents for my daily necessities. At university the difficulty of academic work increased exponentially, I found myself in an environment where I struggled to fit in and make friends, and had to worry about the practicalities of everything. Needless to say, I struggled both academically and mentally, and while I'm almost finished my course now, the consequences of those early difficulties mean my final marks will likely be far lower than what I could have got.

It would have been better, for me at least, if the pressure to go to uni immediately wasn't there. If I could have worked for a couple of years, then I think I would have found my studies far more beneficial. I would have been able to mature and grow so I was ready for university, as well as earning money which would have made my time studying that bit more comfortable. And I wouldn't be coming out of it with a degree that's frankly going to do me no good at all.

The argument about whether it's right that academic qualifications should be seen as the pinnacle is an interesting one too. I'd always assumed that I was academic because I was bright and did well at school, but coming to uni made me realise that I've little interest in knowledge for its own sake. If vocational routes were more valued, perhaps I'd have been able to take a course (whether at a university or as an apprenticeship) which involved less of the theoretical side of maths and which involved more of the material I enjoy (such as applied statistics).

 

[Scotrail12]

I'd always assumed that I was academic because I was bright and did well at school, but coming to uni made me realise that I've little interest in knowledge for its own sake.

I can relate to this (and a lot of what you said in your post) - I think because I managed to do fairly well in the basic qualifications in high school (had a really good set of National 5 results and a decent set of Highers), that I ended up thinking I was more academic than I was. My family kinda encouraged that delusion (I even had one of my aunts saying I should try Oxbridge). Uni kinda brought me back to earth and quite brutally actually, since my first semester 2.5 years ago was an outright disaster in every way. I didn't have a clue what I was doing. It's been better since but I've never really felt like I've excelled there, instead just feeling fairly average and a bit of a misfit for the academic environment overall.

 

[dakta]

Questions an easy one - no.

Personal exeprience time - did uni (IT) subject was good but first year of a new IT course, it wasn't very well established and I think to cut some of the workloadings or test things out we were group assessed on a lot of it.

Got into that strange situation where personally one was doing rather well (won some competitions and got offered mentoring by a blue chip company) but fell apart as there was a bit of bullying and I couldn't keep our group score up and I left at the end of the first year, better to jump when you can.

I actually decided never to go back to IT after that, or at least the corporate type and ended up running my own tuning business which may have been short sighted as I got involved in it again a couple of years ago and now work in cybersecurity though i've done some software development projects for my tuning business too which is now a casual business on top.

got some student debt but ultimately I won my way back through to IT due to a good attitude, doing some personal projects and taking professional certifications on my own initiative.

What I note is back in college I didn't actually want to go to uni, i wanted to get some experience in the networking world - I was effectively coerced into it by a combination of parents and my college tutor who made it appear, even if not overly pushy that 'not going to uni' would be a bit of a downgrade.

Uni does benefit some people but in a lot of cases you don't need it (unless it's a career path that absolutely demands it). Especially if you're willing to invest a bit in yourself as you go. Uni is my mistake and I've probably lost about a decade between leaving uni never to do IT again and doing IT again. Damn.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

It was a stated ambition of a previous government that 50% of all school leavers would go to university - but do 50% of jobs require university-level qualifications?

If the answer to the latter is no then the ambition of the former will just result in some wasting their time when they could have been earning (or taking further education more focused on their intended career).

Not quite: the promise at the 1999 Labour conference was '50 per cent of young adults going into higher education', which was set out as 50% of all people under the age of 30 to take part in higher education, and the 50% would include part-time students and flexible courses.

Students from richer backgrounds will go anyway. Reducing the numbers means disproportionately reducing the proportion for the less well off. Declaring an interest, I went as a (very) mature student eight years ago. Many of those I studied with were 'first in family' students whose careers and employability have been hugely enhanced, they'd be the ones to lose out by restricting the numbers.

 

[GS250]

Questions an easy one - no.

Personal exeprience time - did uni (IT) subject was good but first year of a new IT course, it wasn't very well established and I think to cut some of the workloadings or test things out we were group assessed on a lot of it.

Got into that strange situation where personally one was doing rather well (won some competitions and got offered mentoring by a blue chip company) but fell apart as there was a bit of bullying and I couldn't keep our group score up and I left at the end of the first year, better to jump when you can.

I actually decided never to go back to IT after that, or at least the corporate type and ended up running my own tuning business which may have been short sighted as I got involved in it again a couple of years ago and now work in cybersecurity though i've done some software development projects for my tuning business too which is now a casual business on top.

got some student debt but ultimately I won my way back through to IT due to a good attitude, doing some personal projects and taking professional certifications on my own initiative.

What I note is back in college I didn't actually want to go to uni, i wanted to get some experience in the networking world - I was effectively coerced into it by a combination of parents and my college tutor who made it appear, even if not overly pushy that 'not going to uni' would be a bit of a downgrade.

Uni does benefit some people but in a lot of cases you don't need it (unless it's a career path that absolutely demands it). Especially if you're willing to invest a bit in yourself as you go. Uni is my mistake and I've probably lost about a decade between leaving uni never to do IT again and doing IT again. Damn.

IT is an interesting one as far as correlation with degree courses goes. I think if you really want to get involved in the development of infrastructure or programming languages then a degree is probably a given.

If you want to go more down the technical 'network manager' route or specialise in supporting a particular application or range of hardware, then qualifications such as Microsoft Certification or CISCO is probably a better bet. The given here is that you have probably learned quite a bit yourself including setting up and administering a test network at home.

Either way...IT can be a great career with relatively little academic background.

 

[hst43102]

I actually have very mixed feelings about university. I'm currently just coming to the end of my second year of study and, in terms of the academic side, it's ok but rather boring most of the time, most of the work is not really challenging and I effectively just get treat it as a thing to get out of the way for now. However I wouldn't trade the experience for the world. My first year was unfortunately blighted by lockdowns and covid and I ended up staying at home and doing my lectures on zoom, it was a terrible experience and led to a period of depression. I didn't really have much of a life outside of my screen and any attempts to make friends on my course fell flat - it was a very discouraging time! However since the start of my second year last September I've completely turned my life around. I'm living in a house with six other students who now feel closer than family and I now have dozens of friends, albeit not on my course. I've been able to go to lots of new places and do lots of new things with really great people.
However - it is a very expensive experience. Is it worth the £9,250 a year tuition fee, plus rent and living expenses? Absolutely not. But when I consider the alternatives, I hope I won't regret the decision to go to uni. Almost all my friends from home didn't go to uni, are still living with their parents and although some have got successful jobs and are making good money - compared to me, working up a big debt! - in terms of independence, experiences and social life I have definitely got the better of the two options. Of course it's not for everyone, but uni has given me the opportunity to completely change my life and for that I'm really grateful.

 

[Typhoon]

It's a difficult one. I think my answer to the question would be no, and in particular I think the conventional route into university is probably too narrow.

As a former Course Director at an FE college teaching some HE courses (HNC/ HND, Foundation Degree) I would much rather take on a mature student, particularly one who has experience of the world of work. In my experience they were more motivated and worked harder. As I said to a prospective student, when she asked me why I would offer her a place, "You know what your future will be if you muck this up." She had been working for JD Sports and MacDs but had been studying part time to get the required quals. Too may students just follow the conveyor belt and, I'm ashamed to say, not always discouraged by schools and colleges who are keen to get their numbers up. There are some students who would benefit from going to university when they are a year or two older (I would have been one but no-one mentioned that at the time).
Students also need to consider what they study and where. Too few look at the course content - they inevitably differ from institution. Obviously in subjects like English Literature or History but less obviously in the sciences. The best advice I was given when applying for a place was from a tutor at the University of Kent - she said that she would offer me a place but I should reject it simply because I would have to study aspects of the subject (Maths) I wasn't keen on. That encouraged me to look into that more - at school/ college you study the syllabus that has been chosen from a very restrictive list, at University the choice is much wider. Students may need advice on that, if its not forthcoming they can try YouTube clips.
Where is also important. Students still sign up without having been to the university or its city/ town. They are going to spend three years in a place but haven't bothered taking a day out to find whether it is OK. I don't get it. Some places you either like or don't; and the reason will differ person to person.
Even then the answer to the initial question is no. Blair may have meant well when he suggested that the aim should be 50% going to University and the move towards more vocational quals is welcome but my concern is that what will happen is that those diverted towards them will not necessarily be based on ability. I still haven't worked out why those that go to public school seem to be automatically considered to be 'academic' students

 

[DynamicSpirit]

An interesting question - and one that touches me a little since I'm strongly thinking about returning to University (aged 50+) to take up studying again.

I feel a bit conflicted on the question. On one hand, I can see that University is not for everyone - you have to enjoy reading, academic learning, and be up for stretching yourself mentally in order to get the best out of it - and if that's not you, then there's probably not a lot of point going. There is also the student life and all the friends you'll make, all the easily accessible clubs and societies that can get you into new different sports or other hobbies - drama, debating, music, etc., which is itself a great way to broaden your horizons. But again, only if you're into that kind of thing.

On the other hand, I do strongly feel that it is much better for us as a country if people are well educated. That's both from the point of view of adapting to new technologies, and from the point of view of democracy and civic society: It's better if more people know how to think, to look at both sides of issues, to reason things out rationally, etc. etc. - and to the extent that University courses teach those skills, I'd want to encourage everyone who can to take that opportunity. And also because whatever subject you learn, that is giving you somewhat rare skills: Whatever you study, you are picking up expertise and with that, an informed way of looking at the World that most people don't have - and I feel that gives you more of an opportunity to influence the World for the better.

I think on balance, I would want to see the Government try to make it easy for as many people as possible to go to University (although perhaps with more emphasis on people going as mature students when they are ready, rather than almost everyone going at age 18-ish). But that has to go with an acceptance that University isn't right for everyone.

 

[Phil56]

It was a stated ambition of a previous government that 50% of all school leavers would go to university - but do 50% of jobs require university-level qualifications?

If the answer to the latter is no then the ambition of the former will just result in some wasting their time when they could have been earning (or taking further education more focused on their intended career).

This is it! The number of university places should be in relation to the number of jobs that REALLY require a degree. Obviously not equal as there needs to be a certain level of flexibility for child friendly working, early retirement, career changes, etc. and the few with a genuine fascination/interest for their chosen subject, but some kind of relationship. Huge numbers of jobs don't actually need a degree but it's become an easy way for employers to reduce the number of applications, i.e. by immediately removing those without a degree.

Due to the sheer number of people doing degrees that aren't actually needed, everyone is facing huge student loan debts, and it's mostly those who "need" one (i.e. higher paid jobs/professions) who pay for it (plus ruinously high interest). It's just an extra tax on people who go on to get better/higher paid jobs!

I also think there should be easier/cheaper options for people to go to Uni later in life, so that there's less pressure to go to Uni at 18, take a random subject they just liked the sound of, etc etc., especially for jobs/professions where degrees really are essential. An awful lot of mature people are excluded from jobs/professions that DO require a degree, but they simply can't afford to take x number of years away from the workplace, alongside caring responsibilities, etc. The same applies to the disgracefully poor "adult" education which has all but disappeared from colleges etc - I was absolutely aghast that a relative of mine (mid 30's) can't do GCSE or A levels at any of our local FE colleges and would have to go to a private college an hour away (all our local FE colleges now concentrate only on school-leavers - 20 years ago, our nearest college was open for all to do GCSEs and A levels as well as other qualifications - I did my A level English there as a 30 something year old and then spent time teaching book-keeping to a class which was evenly split between mature adults and school leavers)! What on Earth happened to adult education? I can only imagine it was sacrificed so that colleges could be dominated with school leavers and if you wanted a professional qualification, you had to go to Uni (so completely forgetting the mature people who wanted to improve their lot!).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I feel like there should be more space for creativity. I got an essay back today where I was told it was a really enjoyable read, well written and has lots of knowledge on the subject. However, it apparently doesn't read like an academic essay so he couldn't give me as high of a mark as it deserved.

Depending what the more detailed feedback was, I'd be inclined to ask for further clarification. 'couldn't give me as high of a mark as it deserved' sounds very odd (although maybe that's because something was lost in what I assume was your paraphrasing the actual feedback). Does 'doesn't read like an academic essay' mean that something was off in the style or the kind of language you were using? Or does it mean that you weren't reasoning things out, using evidence to draw out logical conclusions, and giving reasons for discounting any counter-arguments, in the way that would be expected academically (if it was the latter, that would probably justify a lower mark, if it was just stylistics, that seems more questionable).

Should we allow more creativity/individuality?

I would say: Definite yes to more creativity/individuality but only provided you're not sacrificing academic rigour and logical reasoning. Some things are done the way they are for purely cultural/historical reasons - it's good to question/challenge those where appropriate. But some things in academia are done they way they are in order to keep a high standard of evidence / reasoning / etc., and you wouldn't want to lose that.