It's time for more electric loco's!

[Phoenix]

Well I haven't created a thread for a while so now is a better time than any for me to see how fellow enthusiasts feel about the following view.........

Without a doubt we need more electric locomotive's in this country and with the recent talk of putting the wires up around the country I belive traction investment is needed.
We do have electric locomotives in this country but each one has it's own issue which I belive is the following......

86's = Fl are running out of spares and at the current rate of use these loco's will last for around another 5 years before problems begin to arise and considering that the boys at Long Marston are not prepared to yeild spares and the fact they will be either 50 years old or damn close.

90's = now these locomotives do sterling work on the GEML but in general they are becoming a pain for those who use them and DBS are in the process of withdrawing the whole fleet.

92's = although there are many of these locomotives about and never seem to cause to many problem's they appaear to be our newest kit so in time will all be utilisied and considering DBS is testing the class on sleeper work it is likely they will be fully used to replace all class 90's on DBS's fleet list.

Now there are various short term solutions which would involve the success of class 92's in replacing class 90's for DBS and the sale of all 90's and parts to FL so that in turn the class 86's can bow out gracefully after the current 5 year contract.

But if we want to increase electiric locomotive usage we will without a doubt need a new build of locomotive.

there is around 16 86's that need replacing and there are 23 90's with some being very close to never returning to service so realistically the 90's would easily fill the gap and slightly augment the FL fleet.

But there is only 20 class 92's available which leaves DBS with a small electric fleet if all are used.

So your thought's then people it would be really great to have a discusion on the matter.

 

[90019]

I think the problem is that not all lines are electrified, so electrics are limited in their use, whereas diesels can run on any track that they need to, so until there is much more widespread electrification, the diesel will be the more attractive option for FOCs.

 

[2030720310]

I think the problem is that not all lines are electrified, so electrics are limited in their use, whereas diesels can run on any track that they need to, so until there is much more widespread electrification, the diesel will be the more attractive option for FOCs.

What 'e said

 

[Phoenix]

I think the problem is that not all lines are electrified, so electrics are limited in their use, whereas diesels can run on any track that they need to, so until there is much more widespread electrification, the diesel will be the more attractive option for FOCs.

Fair point and that's what keeps me from turning this into a rant at the moment the amount of electric's we have is fine and Foc's have the right amount of locmotives for the correct diagrams.

But if and only if we do have an increase in miles of electrified lines should we begin to buy more electric locomotive's and thus if we are in the planning stages of another electric revelution shouldn't we begin to look into viable options for the traction of the future ?

 

[Dai.]

I think electric lines and electric locos are both needed here, we need to upgrade the rail system in the UK just to compete with other lines. |:

 

[Phoenix]

I think electric lines and electric locos are both needed here, we need to upgrade the rail system in the UK just to compete with other lines. |:

Exactly my thoughts at this moment in time there are countries with much lower GDP's that have a higher percentage of electrification.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye. Freight locos have a need to be able to go EVERYWHERE-with the extent of our electric network, that makes diesels a sensible choice. We'll need to have much higher coverage before we see the likes of an electric "66".

 

[NSEFAN]

What about some sort of bi-mode or even tri-mode loco, which can use third rail, overhead or its own engine? Wouldn't that be the most flexible?

Not sure how practical that would be, mind. There would have to be some really efficient design to get everything to fit.

 

[43167]

I wasnt aware DBS were looking to get rid of the remaining 90's. I also wasnt aware 92's were been tested on the sleepers. I thought technical issues would prevent their use on sleepers?.

 

[Pumbaa]

They are operable - several test runs with dummy stock have been undertaken prior to trials beginning god knows when with the real stock.

 

[starrymarkb]

Plus the 92s were built with use on Nightstars in mind

 

[Daimler]

I think we'll probably need more electric routes before we get more electric locos, but I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment!

A pity, as overhead wires aren't the best looking addition to a rail network...

I do raise one question though - why get rid of the 86s? As far as I'm aware, Freightliner have no major problems with them, and as they themselves have commented, the beauty of them is their simplicity - with little to go wrong, they could be kept going almost indefinitely.

 

[jopsuk]

92s should be more than powerful enough to haul the trains and provide power, given they were supposed to single head (as said) Nightstars- the generator cars were only going to be used when not under the wires (as they were to be marshalled between the pair of 37s).

They going to paint a few up in the new Scotrail livery for it?

As for not being attractive- perhaps a point, but the swiss railways are hardly blots on the landscape, and they're almost entirely electric.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I think the problem is that not all lines are electrified, so electrics are limited in their use, whereas diesels can run on any track that they need to, so until there is much more widespread electrification, the diesel will be the more attractive option for FOCs.

I agree with 90019, as diesals are ok to run on most lines electrified or not they'll always appeal more to FOCs.

 

[tbtc]

What would you use more electric locos on?

Just as a direct replacement on existing freight routes?

Or anything new?

The few electric locos used on passenger services (like the 90s in East Anglia) will be replaced by EMUs in the next few years, the 91s on the ECML will last longer, but there's very little demand for electric locos that can haul passenger trains. The newly electrified services in the future (like Manchester - Glasgow - when the Lancashire wires go up) will be EMU run too.

Shame, in a way, as you could use them on routes like Birmingham - Glasgow, if they were fast enough, but I can't see that happening

 

[jopsuk]

Well quite- the only market for locos (if we're talking new-build) is freight. The recently built Austrian "Railjet" hauled stock was only built due (ironically enough) to an over supply of high speed high power locomotives mainly intended for freight (but with foresight, built with ETS)

 

[Daimler]

As for not being attractive- perhaps a point, but the swiss railways are hardly blots on the landscape, and they're almost entirely electric.

Indeed, I very nearly added 'in this country'. For some reason, France and Switzerland (and no doubt other places) seem to require less obtrusive 'lineside clutter' with electrified lines. And as for this 'style'...

It's rather beautiful - found only - I think - in south-western France (image taken from http://trainsdumidi.bb-fr.com/achives-f40/2010-02-fevrier-2010-la-catenaire-midi-t4202-15.htm)

 

[sprinterguy]

The few electric locos used on passenger services (like the 90s in East Anglia) will be replaced by EMUs in the next few years,

At what point are the East Anglian services meant to be going over to EMU operation? Hardly seems likely when they only recently gained the 90s and mark 3s, and the 90s are only 20 years old. But maybe I've missed something. As I see it, it's the 91s on the east coast that will be next to be replaced by EMUs, so long as the IEP isn't shelved completely, seeing as the ECML was due to be receiving the pre-production batch in 2013.

Not to spread the doom and gloom, but I don't imagine there will be any new build passenger electric locomotives turning up any time soon. Which is a shame, I was on a Crosscountry Bournemouth to Manchester service earlier and was remembering the days when loco changes from diesel to electric used to take place at New Street, which was massively preferable to the current Voyagers, as it made better use of the electrification north of Birmingham, and meant that with loco hauled carriages there was no bloody underfloor engine noise
I'd love to see new mark 5 carriages on that sort of route, hauled by a 67 as far as Birmingham and then maybe a Bombardier Traxx electric onwards, that would be heaven! But unlikely, operators seem to be in love with standardised multiple unit designs, be they diesel or electric.

On the freight front I definitely think better use should be made of the current electric fleet. The 90s and 92s could be used a lot more efficiently and more regularly than they are. I think operators should get full utilisation out of the current fleet before they start buying new locos. I haven't been keen on recent EWS (now DB) and Freightliner attitudes to electric operation, where it seems that increasingly class 66 locos are being used for extensive periods under the wires on trains that COULD use electric traction for the trunk part of their journey, with only short sections at either end of the journey that are not electrified (anglo-scottish car trains from Bathgate using class 66 power anyone?).

Using 92s on the Caledonian Sleepers is a bright idea I'd think (but personally I reckon they'd look 'orrible in First blue and pink). If the Anglian 90s were replaced by something else, for instance displaced class 91s and mark 4s from the ECML if IEP goes ahead, then conceivably Freightliner would have the opportunity to replace it's class 86s with a standard 90 fleet (15 90s working singly would be more than sufficient to replace 23 86s in pairs), although, as has been said above, there's nowt wrong with the 86s anyway despite their age!

 

[WatcherZero]

Theirs a new design of Overhead cables and Gantrys that will be used in all future work that is less cluttered than our traditional style, only requires one set of insulators rather than three for example. Uses smart power transformers or something.

 

[starrymarkb]

Well quite- the only market for locos (if we're talking new-build) is freight. The recently built Austrian "Railjet" hauled stock was only built due (ironically enough) to an over supply of high speed high power locomotives mainly intended for freight (but with foresight, built with ETS)

Quite a lot of the Alpine operators prefer 'Universal' locomotives. One design suitable for freight and passenger. The Swiss Re460/5 is a similar example, though now most operators in CH prefer Multisystem stuff to avoid loco changing at the border

 

[Rugd1022]

For more electric haulage on freight rains virtually every piece of track in the country would have to be wired, but in many cases it's just not practical or economical.... liner terminals obviously spring to mind so a diesel shunter would still be needed, and as good as 08s undoubtedly are they won't be around forever. A lot of our freight work at Rugby involves diversions over various routes that might not warrant OHLE in the economic sense.... who pays for it and who benefits in the long term?

The bulk of our work is aggragates traffic from the Leicestershire quarries to London via the Midland Mainline, which often gets diverted via Syston Jcn / Manton Jcn / Corby / Kettering.... if the proposed MML electrification goes ahead you can bet your Grannies finest china this bit won't get done and the logistics of changing from one form of traction to the other and back again will send the TOC's operating costs skyward. When things like this are done in a piecemeal fashion then traction and route knowledge come into the equation too.

I'm still baffled why the Birmingham - Nuneaton line wasn't electrified way back in the 60s as it has always been used as a diversionary route, as per the Stetchford-Aston-Bescot-Bushbury line, which was electrified in about 1965. That's just one example anyway.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant but I've heard of so many disparate schemes and empty promises over the years that really ever seems to materialise!

Nidge, cynic mode 'off' now ;O)

 

[D6975]

I'm still baffled why the Birmingham - Nuneaton line wasn't electrified way back in the 60s as it has always been used as a diversionary route, as per the Stetchford-Aston-Bescot-Bushbury line, which was electrified in about 1965. That's just one example anyway.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant but I've heard of so many disparate schemes and empty promises over the years that really ever seems to materialise!

Nidge, cynic mode 'off' now ;O)

There are other more recent examples too.
Obvious bits that didn't get done were Leeds-York (Neville Hill - Colton jn to be more precise)
Manchester-Preston, though this going to be done now, it's not via Bolton, it's going to be via the Earlstown connection to the WCML.

Edinburgh - Carstairs was unusual in that it was an obvious bit to electrify once the ECML was done and it did happen.

 

[d.collins26]

I thuink it is disgusting that 20yr old-ish Class 90s are put into store and/or may never see service again. Similar waste to the 56s, 58s, 60s & 87s. :/

 

[Kneedown]

Theirs a new design of Overhead cables and Gantrys that will be used in all future work that is less cluttered than our traditional style, only requires one set of insulators rather than three for example. Uses smart power transformers or something.

I don't know why people harp on about it. You really can't notice the OHLE that much from even a relatively short distance away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's rather beautiful - found only - I think - in south-western France

On the French 1500v dc network. Saw a bit of that last year near Ychoux when on holiday. It's certainly different!

 

[Moog_1984]

I think the problem is that not all lines are electrified, so electrics are limited in their use, whereas diesels can run on any track that they need to, so until there is much more widespread electrification, the diesel will be the more attractive option for FOCs.

There was a memo at some point about "diesel under the wires" in relation to reducing emissions and costs: this would mean a TAC penalty for trains which ran more than a certain % of their journey under wires on diesel power: idea making it more attrractive to invest or at least hire leccie locos, or develop dual mode multiple units.

There are only a couple of classes of "dual mode " locos in the whole of Europe, both low powered. The french used to have some big GM slug with a third rail shoe: the amps/ voltage is probably easier to integrate to DE output than 25kv(?)

We could have had a 210/ 418/ 318 " go anywhere" hybrid apparently it was mooted when the 210s where running. good bits of kit, allegedly more reliabele and certainly quicker than 170s.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I suppose the sensible solution for freight would be to go down the 73 route, having an electric loco with a lower powered diesel engine for operating off the wires. One problem with electric freight is that electrification of yards is difficult. OHLE can get in the way of loading and unloading, and be a danger. Third rail is a danger too. The current option is to electrify the reception sidings and uncouple the loco there, then use a shunter to take the train onwards into the yard. A better option would be to provide the loco with it's own "built in shunter". It's not like a high powered engine would be needed, probably 1000hp at most, which would not take up a lot of space or add that much to weight (on a freight loco, extra weight is a help as it improves haulage capacity). With future technology there is the option of fuel cells or batteries. The early SR electric locos used flywheels to store power for use away from the third rail.

 

[tbtc]

There are other more recent examples too.
Obvious bits that didn't get done were Leeds-York (Neville Hill - Colton jn to be more precise)
Manchester-Preston, though this going to be done now, it's not via Bolton, it's going to be via the Earlstown connection to the WCML.

I agree that there are a lot of "gaps" and that we'd be better filling them in than electrifying totally new areas (which only creates more "gaps") - the examples I've given before are Coventry - Nuneaton, the Walsall - Trent Valley route etc

However, I thought the Bolton line was going to be wired (it was mentioned in the second Lancashire announcement, along with Blackpool)?

 

[Moog_1984]

I suppose the sensible solution for freight would be to go down the 73 route, having an electric loco with a lower powered diesel engine for operating off the wires. One problem with electric freight is that electrification of yards is difficult. OHLE can get in the way of loading and unloading, and be a danger. Third rail is a danger too. The current option is to electrify the reception sidings and uncouple the loco there, then use a shunter to take the train onwards into the yard. A better option would be to provide the loco with it's own "built in shunter". It's not like a high powered engine would be needed, probably 1000hp at most, which would not take up a lot of space or add that much to weight (on a freight loco, extra weight is a help as it improves haulage capacity). With future technology there is the option of fuel cells or batteries. The early SR electric locos used flywheels to store power for use away from the third rail.

Good comment: worth it's own topic- coming to a rail forum near you asap.

 

[royaloak]

Modern diesels are over 3000hp and electrics 5000hp continuous, a 73 was 600 and 1600 respectively, might be a bit under-powered.

Any extra equipment adds weight and so access charges and lowers haulage capacity, is more to go wrong so increases maintenance costs and down-time, because of our loading gauge our trains are small so lack the room for extra equipment.
But apart from that its a good idea

 

[starrymarkb]

Don't the French now have EDMU AGCs? Would that be adaptable for UK use if wiring is rolled out