Ivanhoe line?

[yorksrob]

You cannot make a case on diversionary routes. They dont happen often enough or be quantified.

Diversionary potential should certainly feed into the business case, even if not the whole case. If it doesn't, it suggests the methodology is flawed.

 

[The Planner]

How do you quantify them then? Put an arbitary value on their usage?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did go to Leicester in the early 60s, but don't remember what the passenger services were like, or what exactly worked them. The line seems to have closed to passenger on Sept 7, 1964.
I suspect it would have been a sort of two-hourly stopping service - so 6 or 7 trains a day maximum, but perhaps someone on here will know.

My 1958 LMR timetable shows 9 trains a day each way from Leicester to Burton, with two of them running through to Derby.
Journey time about 65 minutes to Burton.
Some big gaps in services, typical of the era (2-3 hours or more).
Two trains on Sundays, very early and very late.

 

[70014IronDuke]

My 1958 LMR timetable shows 9 trains a day each way from Leicester to Burton, with two of them running through to Derby.
Journey time about 65 minutes to Burton.
Some big gaps in services, typical of the era (2-3 hours or more).
Two trains on Sundays, very early and very late.

Thanks. Bit better than I thought then. Wonder what worked the line in those days? I suspect Stanier 2-6-2Ts or Fowler 2-6-4Ts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How do you quantify them then? Put an arbitary value on their usage?

I presume that you have a formula to evaluate, eg the value of (say) inserting a stop on a train in terms of a) the 'damage' done to current passenger loadings/revenues due to increased overall journey times versus b) the extra passenger revenue won by the stop?

So, extending that to back-up routes: surely you could estimate how often a route is used, eg 4 Sundays per year or whatever and factor in how much more attractive that is per passenger. I somehow suspect passengers would far rather be kept on a train for an extra 45 minutes than turfed out onto buses at Leicester. And the pros/cons in pax revenues could then be estimated?

However, in the case of Leicester-Burton, while, if it existed as an available alternative route it would be used at times - we all know that the Melton route already serves for diversions, allowing full engineering possession of Kettering - Leicester (albeit with limited capacity).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I have! I am working my way through the many replies.
I seem to have opened a few cans of rail worms!

Ah, welcome back. Yes, this is one of those festering wounds for some of us

 

[edwin_m]

I presume that you have a formula to evaluate, eg the value of (say) inserting a stop on a train in terms of a) the 'damage' done to current passenger loadings/revenues due to increased overall journey times versus b) the extra passenger revenue won by the stop?

So, extending that to back-up routes: surely you could estimate how often a route is used, eg 4 Sundays per year or whatever and factor in how much more attractive that is per passenger. I somehow suspect passengers would far rather be kept on a train for an extra 45 minutes than turfed out onto buses at Leicester. And the pros/cons in pax revenues could then be estimated?

However, in the case of Leicester-Burton, while, if it existed as an available alternative route it would be used at times - we all know that the Melton route already serves for diversions, allowing full engineering possession of Kettering - Leicester (albeit with limited capacity).

I'm sure that could be done, but the benefits would have to be factored down to account for:
- The few days in the year when intrusive possessions are needed on the route being bypassed
- The small proportion of those days when possessions block the whole route, most of which is four-track so two tracks can often be kept in use
- The fact these would be at quieter times when there were fewer passengers to benefit
- The extra journey time on the diversion making it less attractive to passengers when compared with going via Birmingham for example
- The absence of major structures requiring frequent attention, or sections unusually prone to weather damage, on the route being bypassed

I think when factors are applied to allow for all the above, the amount of benefit attributable to diversionary useage will be tiny.

As for electrification possessions, for all its problems the Great Western scheme doesn't seem to have been causing huge amounts of disruption to passengers and hopefully by the time the Midland is done the working methods will have been refined further. OLE and its supports can be done in overnight possessions, so it's really just the bridgeworks that require weekend closures.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

INDEED - but she doesn't seem to have returned !



the report (posted by Lincoln, up thread) does mention Swadlincote - pp 24

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CD-05.pdf

but doesn't agree with you on the population (by a long way!)

Indeed, see pp 24!

My estimate of Swadlincote's population is from that great bastion of correct information Wikipedia, which states;

"Swadlincote consists of the settlements of Swadlincote itself plus the districts of Newhall and Midway, and the contiguous suburban villages of Church Gresley and Woodville. Their combined population is about 36,000".

I'm intrigued as to why the document you linked to estimates it to be so much lower. A cynic might suggest the report deliberately underestimated the potential market for a passenger service....

 

[Midlandman]

The population of Swadlincote increased greatly after the M42 opened when people from the West Midlands discovered that they were virtually giving houses away there. You only have to walk down the High Street now for the accents to tell you where the influx came from. Incidentally, I am a native of Church Gresley and my father was the last booking clerk at Swadlincote station. The local service there went in 1947, but the line was still open for freight (and excursions) until 1962 and the station functioned as an agency, meaning you didn't have to go to Burton to book a ticket from Burton.
The Leicester line was pretty much dieslelised by 1960 (apart from a Saturday train when Leicester City were at home) but most off peak trains were reduced to running Wednesdays and Saturdays only by then. The 'replacement' bus service following closure consisted of one bus a day from Gresley to Ashby to cater for children attending Ashby Grammar School. (Including me, in the first intake not to go by train. It was far more convenient than the train, being a 5 minute walk from home to bus stop as against a 2 mile trek to a station at the bottom of a hill like the side of a house). Also, although there's been a lot of mentioning of Leicestershire County Council, a re-opened Gresley station (actually in the smaller village of Castle Gresley) would be in Derbyshire.

 

[Kettledrum]

The population of Swadlincote increased greatly after the M42 opened when people from the West Midlands discovered that they were virtually giving houses away there. You only have to walk down the High Street now for the accents to tell you where the influx came from. Incidentally, I am a native of Church Gresley and my father was the last booking clerk at Swadlincote station. The local service there went in 1947, but the line was still open for freight (and excursions) until 1962 and the station functioned as an agency, meaning you didn't have to go to Burton to book a ticket from Burton.
Also, although there's been a lot of mentioning of Leicestershire County Council, a re-opened Gresley station (actually in the smaller village of Castle Gresley) would be in Derbyshire.

Perhaps this is being looked at the wrong way round. Potential passenger demand from Ashby and Swadlincote is more towards Birmingham - as evidenced by the commuters on the M42.

Instead of thinking of opening up the Leicester end, there might be more scope to run services:

Ashby - Swadlincote - Burton - Tamworth - Wilnecote - Birmingham New Street

The existing XC trains are full in peak times so there's clearly demand on part of the route. The economic boost for this part of the East and West Midlands would be fantastic.

A few years ago there was talk of building a turn-back facility at Tamworth, and this could be avoided, and the trains proposed to terminate at Tamworth could terminate at Ashby instead.

 

[Midlandman]

Unfortunately, the station 'serving' Swadlincote would have to be a re-opened Gresley, which is still 2 miles from the town centre. (The old station at Swadlincote was on a loop line which was very much built for freight, the sparse passenger service being very much an afterthought. The station now lies buried under a row of houses behind the fire station). The only plans I've seen envisage rebuilding Gresley on the site of the old goods yard, which would at least give room for some sort of car park, but it's still a long way from the town centre. And, of course, that would be dependent on getting some money from Derbyshire. Leicestershire has never been very enthusiastic about anything to the west of Coalville and has, as far as I know, never even acknowledged thje need to build stations west of Ashby. (There used to be 2, Moira, which was just in Leicestershire and would be the closest station to the Conkers Visitor Centre, although 'closest doesn't necessarily mean close, and Gresley, in Derbyshire).

 

[Kettledrum]

It's this comment in the West Midlands and Chiltern consultation study that makes me wonder if there is an opportunity to start to open the Ivanhoe line from Burton towards Castle Gresley and Ashby:

"On the Birmingham to Nottingham corridor, at the current time and based on the passenger count data used, a medium value for money case for lengthening services could not be identified for the whole route. An alternative option of a new service between Burton-on-Trent and Birmingham to relieve the most crowded section of route has been identified. This new service would require additional infrastructure in the Burton-on-Trent area, or consideration of extending the new service beyond Burton-on-Trent."

 

[edwin_m]

Even when there was a passenger service it probably wasn't very attractive, considering that the railway also operated trams between Burton and Ashby.

The idea of heading towards Birmingham is an interesting one and could have potential. However I think a reversal in Burton would still be necessary because of the number of Burton to Birmingham passengers that could be diverted from other more crowded trains. It would probably therefore still need the bay platform at Burton.

 

[MarkRedon]

Interesting in the context of this discussion: according to a story in the Burton Mail, South Derbyshire has protected from development land potentially required for station sites:

http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/land-fo...e-local-plan/story-29642511-detail/story.html

LAND with the potential to be developed for new rail stations has been protected in the South Derbyshire Local Plan.

The document, which sets out a blueprint for development in the district for the next decade, notes the areas of potential development of railway stations in Castle Gresley, Drakelow and Stenson Fields, near Derby.

Read more at http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/land-fo...9642511-detail/story.html#G4hx5OtIvGVWMjFP.99

 

[scott118]

For years this discussion has rumbled on. As a kid i lived in an estate that this line ran adjacent to. I also know some who used to walk the line, as a 'shortcut' as the traffic was so sparse, even at it's height..

Where would the benefit of this line come from? Most in Leicester, view Coalville as a ghost town, since the demise of the collieries and lately, Snibston Discovery. Coalville/Whitwick, has had it's own 'regeneration', and those that i know who live there, chose to go to Ashby, as it's simply closer. Those that live in LFE/KM, as stated previously, have the park and ride, should they want to use public transport, for their ride into the city centre. However those that live in those suburbs, simply pop along to Fosse Park, as again it's 'easier'.. Those who live towards Desford/ Newbold Verdon, chose to visit Hinckley, for the very same reasons.

In an age, where we want everything yesterday, and the convenience of our own transport, I don't ever envisage this line seeing a use again.

In 2009, a report showed a cost of some £49 million required. What price would that be today?

 

[highdyke]

Another report was done recently

http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/local-news/reopening-ivanhoe-line-between-leicester-11417046

£175 million to reopen and £4 million subsidy a year in operating costs. The council was told it was extremely poor value for money and not to pursue it.

I can only imagine it would be done at regional or national level: Perhaps some sort of extension to the cross city route from Litchfield to Leicester via Burton, and some sort of HS2 connectivity in the future under Midlands engine for growth?

 

[scott118]

Another report was done recently

http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/local-news/reopening-ivanhoe-line-between-leicester-11417046

£175 million to reopen and £4 million subsidy a year in operating costs. The council was told it was extremely poor value for money and not to pursue it.

I can only imagine it would be done at regional or national level: Perhaps some sort of extension to the cross city route from Litchfield to Leicester via Burton, and some sort of HS2 connectivity in the future under Midlands engine for growth?

so what's the truth? Yes/No? Mothballed again, perhaps? :roll:
http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/l...cestershire-rail-improvements-county-11508072

Councillors decided not to abandon hope of reinstating the Leicester to Burton line despite investigations showing it would be ‘poor value for money’

http://www.labournwl.org.uk/the_ivanhoe_line_is_unlikely_to_be_reopened_should_we_be_surprised

The Ivanhoe line is unlikely to be reopened. Should we be surprised?

 

[highdyke]

The truth is some of these projects look at a narrow inputs.

The project ought to be under a new electric service from Worcester/Birmingham - Lincoln via Litchfield, which would open up a lot of new journey opportunities, coupled with XC and MML electrification and remodelling of Burton station to remove a long standing PSR. But that would definitely be a regional thing rather than something done by Leicestershire. If it connected in with HS2 might placate some of the voters in that area...Leicestershire needs to look at the East-West railway model on how councils work together.

 

[ashworth]

I can't really see any great future in an Ivanhoe service from Leicester to Burton.
I do, however, wonder if there is any demand for an hourly service from Derby to Birmingham via Lichfield. It would provide, although with a slightly longer journey time, more capacity between Burton and Birmingham. It would certainly make journeys to and from Lichfield to Derby and beyond much easier than via Lichfield TV and Tamworth or even via Birmingham. Some of the busier stations like Sutton Coldfield would also benefit from journeys to the north without travelling via Birmingham.

I'd like to suggest running the hourly Matlock service to Birmingham via Lichfield and then linking the Newark to Derby section of that route through to Crewe. This would then also provide through Nottingham to Stoke on Trent and Crewe journey opportunities. It won't happen but it's fun to think about.

 

[highdyke]

It is yep! With HS2 connectivity, you could put a new curve in north of Toton to connect with the Radford Junction line.

In theory you could run Worcester/New Street/Litchfield/Burton(then Leicester/Loughborough or Derby), Toton(HS2), Notts/Newark/Lincoln.

Never happen, but probably ought to be considered rather than just plonking the East Mids station at Toton and assume everyone will drive or looking at the branch in isolation.

 

[baz2277]

Is there any reason (apart from Electrification!) that the LM Cross City services to Trent Valley couldn't come as far as Burton and beyond along that line??

As a previous poster has already mentioned, it's a faff changing at Tamworth when there's already a track straight into Lichfield and Birmingham. While we have a burton-lichfield bus service that's just been changed with the loss of some services and increased journey times on others a simple 'A38-free' connection would be brilliant and possibly remove some traffic from the crowed XC services into New Street from Burton

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Living in Burton I know there would be a good demand for it. Lots of people buy Burton Leicester tickets despite the high ticket price because they are going via Derby so the rail miles are much higher than going direct via Coalville. Changing in Leicester instead of Derby, Tamworth or Brum could also mean a faster more reliable journey for us to London.

The local Bus Company Midland Classic has done really well strengthening the Burton Ashby Service but there is still very limited evening and Sunday Services

Burton is a funny place rail wise. We have a direct service to Aberdeen and Penzance but nothing to Leicester or London.

 

[Kettledrum]

Is there any reason (apart from Electrification!) that the LM Cross City services to Trent Valley couldn't come as far as Burton and beyond along that line??

As a previous poster has already mentioned, it's a faff changing at Tamworth when there's already a track straight into Lichfield and Birmingham. While we have a burton-lichfield bus service that's just been changed with the loss of some services and increased journey times on others a simple 'A38-free' connection would be brilliant and possibly remove some traffic from the crowed XC services into New Street from Burton

Sadly, the East Midlands route consultation was silent on this last year, as it was on any suggestions for the Ivanhoe line. The consultation responses though included a number of suggestions included suggestions of new stations at Alrewas (on a new Lichfield to Derby service) and Castle Donnington (on a new Lichfield to Nottingham service). See

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/East-Midlands-Route-Study-consultation-responses.pdf

Although some of the consultation responses suggested the Ivanhoe line, this is would be a much bigger and more costly undertaking.