Jimmy Savile

[Butts]

Certainly is these days unfortunately. And i can't help but to feel that broadcasters & the newspapers are gradually going over the top in what their allowed to write / how much of a sound bite their allowed to Manipulate. As you say Paul Sidorczuk, Double standards.

As for his headstone and the path sign removing in Scarborough. I also find the way this is being handled rather sad too, especially as the media is reporting that his headstone is to be 'dumped in a landfill site'. This all before any thorough report has been published.

But i also have to agree with Johnuk123.

As I mentioned earlier Liz Kershaw and Janet Street Porter should be told to "cough up" (the indentities of their harassers) or shut up :roll:

I guess to a lot of younger contributors it is inconceiveable that as a boss you could slap a girls backside and make some ribald remark without any fear of retribution. Equally I have seen women grab mens crotch areas in an inappropriate manner.

Changed days indeed , but no one seemed to object , it was an everyday aspect of working life.

 

[Kneedown]

I'm the first person to call out for castration and hanging of kiddie fiddlers and sex offenders in general, but i'm deeply uncomfortable with all the venom that's now being directed at someone who is not in a position to defend himself.
I think it was yesterday that i heard around 120 women had now come forward with allegations against Mr Saville. I'm not saying i disbelieve these people, nor that i believe them, but i find it hard to believe that not a single one went to the Police while he was alive.
It is also conceivable that people can smell the opportunity for a bit of money to be made from magazine deals or by suing Mr Savilles estate in a civil court where, i believe, the burden of proof required is less.
All in all, unless film or photographs turn up it is impossible to prove one way or another and it is wrong to drag his name through the mud like this.
I believe there should be an investigation, if only to put the neccesary questions to others, still alive, who have also been implicated, and charge them if there is suffiecient evidence.
If these allegations are true, and i don't believe we'll ever know one way or another, then "Closure" for the victims has been mentioned. Well Mr Saville's dead, you can't get anymore closure than that.

 

[Oswyntail]

... I find it hard to believe that not a single one went to the Police while he was alive. ....I believe there should be an investigation, if only to put the neccesary questions to others, still alive, who have also been implicated, and charge them if there is suffiecient evidence......

As I understand it, one of the worrying aspects was that some did go to the police, or their superiors in various organisations, and were fobbed off. [Shades of the recent Rotherham grooming scandal, where one of the victims was charged with wasting police time and told not to be such a naughty girl]. The enquiries are looking at those who covered up, and, it seems, might have continued covering up to the present day, as well as possible perpetrators. There may well be prosecutions.
The world was very different back in 1959, but that does not exonerate those who committed crimes. IMHO, the worse crime is not that of sexual abuse (as the perpetrator was probably sick and needed help) but that of looking the other way. That this still happens today shows how little we have changed in reality. I hope that the chief result of this "witch hunt" is that ignoring such things going on is no longer an option.

 

[kylemore]

The demonising of Savile may have the effect of diverting attention from others and indeed other aspects of this business, in fact that may be the intention. If it is, I think it is a forlorn hope for those with reason to hope it will stop with the destruction of Savile's headstone.
The cats out the bag and theres no guessing where it will lead.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The public have to remember that the investigation spans more than just Jimmy Saville. There is the potential (however we don't know if it will ever happen, this is just from people's claims) that senior media and celebrity figures could also be implicated.

Of course, one name should make people more careful about trial by media: Stefan Ksisko.

 

[Johnuk123]

As I mentioned earlier Liz Kershaw and Janet Street Porter should be told to "cough up" (the indentities of their harassers) or shut up :roll:

I see Vanessa Feltz and Sandi Toksvig have also said they'd been abused but once again keeping silent about his identity.

Not one to miss an opportunity Jordan also said in the paper on Saturday she'd been abused but would not tell.

Like you say "cough up or shut up"

 

[SS4]

How would you substantiate such a thing from 30/40 years ago?
Other than women who were sexually abused coming forward.

It's very tough if not impossible. Doesn't mean it happened or did not happen but burden of proof is unchanged

If I were to turn around and say I saw a UFO 30/40 years ago would you take it as iron fact? What if me and three mates had saw it?

Double standards certainly apply to the media these days, who see wrong in all walks of life....with the sole exception of the media..

Definitely. Nowadays burden of proof seems to be on the defendant to prove his (and it nearly always is his) innocence. Steps won't be taken because the government knows the power the Press has to destroy lives. It's absurd that a paper can print a damning headline and issue a size 1 font correction buried deep in the paper.
Call my cynical but as long as any regulatory fine is lower than profit made the media will continue to lie.

 

[Butts]

The public have to remember that the investigation spans more than just Jimmy Saville. There is the potential (however we don't know if it will ever happen, this is just from people's claims) that senior media and celebrity figures could also be implicated.

Of course, one name should make people more careful about trial by media: Stefan Ksisko.

Indeed, it does not just extend to celebrities either (groping - not rape).

As I have attempted to allude to it was common place in a lot of the places I worked in as a young man.

Surely there must be others on here old enough to remember when this sort of behaviour was regarded as an "occupational hazard" rather than any real harm. Whether that assesment ir right or wrong to try and pretend it wasn't widespread it quite frankly ludicrous.

And no I didn't work in any "knocking shops" - well not official ones anyway !!

 

[Condor7]

As he's no longer with us, short of some pictures or filmed evidence coming to light the question of proof will remain unanswered.

That is not true.
Evidence and statements can be collected and a court could decide whether or not the facts show beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

Don't get me wrong, things do not look good for him, and it would not come as a surprise if he was indeed what they say he is, but until a court has decided we cannot presume guilt.

This is a modern day version of hanging someone before a trial.

 

[Butts]

That is not true.
Evidence and statements can be collected and a court could decide whether or not the facts show beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

Don't get me wrong, things do not look good for him, and it would not come as a surprise if he was indeed what they say he is, but until a court has decided we cannot presume guilt.

This is a modern day version of hanging someone before a trial.

Surely he can't be tried when he is "pushing up daisies" - are you referring to an enquiry as oppose to a trial ?

 

[Condor7]

Surely he can't be tried when he is "pushing up daisies" - are you referring to an enquiry as oppose to a trial ?

Yes you are most likely correct there.
However a trial or a enquiry the principle remains the same.

There just seems to a an erroding of the innocent until proven guilt these days as was also shown in the John Terry case.

Of course it does not help that it takes an eternity for cases to heard.

A typical example of the problems this brings was a while ago a pediatrician who came home to find his house vandalised because some moron got mixed up and thought he was a pedophile.

Innocent until proven guilt has got to remain the standard of our justice sysem otherwise we are no better than barbarians.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely he can't be tried when he is "pushing up daisies"

Well there is a precedent. Oliver Cromwell (and some other deceased 'Regicides'), after the Restoration of the Monarchy, were convicted of treason, exhumed, hung and beheaded. As I suggested earlier, perhaps people want justice, 1660s style?

 

[Butts]

Well there is a precedent. Oliver Cromwell (and some other deceased 'Regicides'), after the Restoration of the Monarchy, were convicted of treason, exhumed, hung and beheaded. As I suggested earlier, perhaps people want justice, 1660s style?

Charles II is hardly a suitable example when we are considering exploitation of young ladies......how many mistresses and children born out of wedlock

 

[wintonian]

Can recompense be made from the deceased estate?

It was the case until the late 50's when suicide became legal that any 'sentence' (or what ever it is called posthumously) would be carried out on the persons estate.

Mind you considering very often one of the major factors in a decision to take ones own life involves debt worrys then I'm not sure it would have been terribly effective and in any case who would be receiving justice - society?.

 

[Butts]

Can recompense be made from the deceased estate?

It was the case until the late 50's when suicide became legal that any 'sentence' (or what ever it is called posthumously) would be carried out on the persons estate.

Mind you considering very often one of the major factors in a decision to take ones own life involves debt worrys then I'm not sure it would have been terribly effective and in any case who would be receiving justice - society?.

Are they interested in Justice or Money ? .....you may have hit on something here.

 

[Kernowfem]

According to calendar news Mr Savilles head stone has been taken down and is now on its way to the tip.

Surely the police should be left to do their investigations and reach a decision as to whether Mr Saville was guilty or not BEFORE the pitch forks make an appearance?

 

[wintonian]

According to calendar news Mr Savilles head stone has been taken down and is now on its way to the tip.

Surely the police should be left to do their investigations and reach a decision as to whether Mr Saville was guilty or not BEFORE the pitch forks make an appearance?

Yes, but the media have their own independent judicial system in which sentence is permitted to be carried out by vigilantes even before enough real evidence has been gathered to enable them to judged by their peers as enshrined in the Magna Carta. :-x

 

[Kernowfem]

Yes, but the media have their own independent judicial system in which sentence is permitted to be carried out by vigilantes even before enough real evidence has been gathered to enable them to judged by their peers as enshrined in the Magna Carta. :-x

Indeed...trial by media. However i find myself asking this...what of the morons who are all too quick to believe in the media trial? Surely human beings are able to think for themselves...and as such should await the outcome of the official police investigation, before defacing plaques, changing charity names, removing headstones etc...

As far as this country is concerned he is already guilty.

 

[Greenback]

I have had a lot of concerns since the TV programme was broadcast. Some of these, in no particular order, include:

1. Savile can't be proven guilty, as the only way to do that is by him being put on trial and all the evidence being presented in court. As he is dead, that clearly can't happen.

2. As has been said, the 60's and 70' were a very different era, when, rightly or wrongly, terms such as 'duty of care' were not in general use, young women were considered fair game, and no one was really too concerned about any age of consent.

3. Jimmy Savile, being a little bit creepy, eccentric and with a rather strange lifestyle was always going to be an obvious choice for anyone who wanted to sell a sensational story to the media after his death. The fact that he presented a long running TV show involving children merely adds to this. Most people are more prepared to believe allegations against him than they would about other celebrities - a typical reaction I've heard over and over again is 'I always thought there was something funny about him'.

If he has indeed done the things he has been accused of, then it is a pity he was not brought to justice when he was alive.

What we have now is a situation where the accused cannot defend himself, but is guilty in the eyes of most people. His reputation is now in tatters, and his charity work has been sullied, possibly beyond repair. All of this would have been entirely justified if he had been arrested, charged, and found guilty when he was still alive, but is impossible now.

 

[swj99]

I for one am very uneasy about what is currently going on - and I'd like to know why nothing was done while he was still alive.

Same here !

From a moral point of view it could be said that when someone reports an incidence of rape or sexual abuse (one which is true), they are making their own contribution towards stopping the perpetrator from doing the same thing to someone else. If they fail to report it, they become partly responsible for the perpetrator remaining free to do the same or similar to someone else.

If a person reports an incident and it is not taken seriously or not properly investigated, the person or organization who fails to take it seriously becomes partly responsible if the perpetrator remains free to offend again.

Anyone making allegations after an alleged perpetrator’s death is really attempting to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted, if indeed a horse was ever in that stable in the first place. Now the man is dead, we will never know for sure and he’s not here to admit or deny the allegations. All we are likely to have is grief whoring, speculation on a massive scale, a witch hunt and a trial by internet / media.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If they fail to report it, they become partly responsible for the perpetrator remaining free to do the same or similar to someone else.

If a person reports an incident and it is not taken seriously or not properly investigated, the person or organization who fails to take it seriously becomes partly responsible if the perpetrator remains free to offend again.

Both utterly untrue I'm afraid. The perpetrator is the only one responsible for committing a crime.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Both utterly untrue I'm afraid. The perpetrator is the only one responsible for committing a crime.

True, but would they not become guilty of the crime of aiding and abetting if they were aware of the crimes taking place but did / said nothing at the time?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

True, but would they not become guilty of the crime of aiding and abetting if they were aware of the crimes taking place but did / said nothing at the time?

IMO it would create a dangerous precedent if victims, especially of sexual offences, are prosecuted because they felt unable to report the crime to the police.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[wbbminerals]

I love the way he was 'Sir Jimmy', and now it's just 'SAVILLE'.

 

[Oswyntail]

Both utterly untrue I'm afraid. The perpetrator is the only one responsible for committing a crime.

That may (or may not) be strictly true in law. But in moral terms, turning a blind eye is utterly reprehensible.

 

[Bungle73]

Some of these "allegations" are becoming a bit difficult to believe tbh.

In a further development, it was claimed last night that Savile went on "ward rounds" to Stoke Mandeville Hospital in Buckinghamshire to find girls to abuse. Staff were said to have told girls in children's wards to "pretend to be asleep" during his visits.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ow-staff-dreaded-hospital-tours-16222796.html

If that really went on I cannot see why it wouldn't have come out much much sooner.

 

[SS4]

If this the best they can come up with I hope for the tabloid press to die out sooner rather than later.

 

[Butts]

If this the best they can come up with I hope for the tabloid press to die out sooner rather than later.

If the allegations were not so serious it's almost turning into a :

"Carry on Film" - you have images of Saville rampaging around the ward in a Sid Jamesesque manner groping all and sundry

Where was Hattie Jaques when all this was going on ?

 

[185]

Butts... I hear Sir Jimmy was one of them awful smokers.



*runs for cover*

 

[Monty]

I'm eagerly awaiting the authorities and the media to annouce that he was also the one that was responsible for the financial crisis, Islamic extremism and that he stole christmas.... Nothing like a trial by media after your 6 feet under. :roll: