JPT Travel

[TheGrandWazoo]

So? I said 'former GM Buses South area' meaning the area that used to have buses saying GM Buses South on them. You're twisting what I'm saying to make it sound like I'm anti-First Group and pro-Stagecoach. Do you not know the meaning of the word 'former'?

The names of limited companies used by bus operators don't mean anything to a lot of people - say Green Triangle Buses Limited to most South Lancs Travel bus users and they won't have a clue what you're on about.

The general tone of the thread was whether First would retaliate by taking on Stagecoach for going in to 'their area' by taking on the JPT routes, so I pointed out that First have deviated outside of 'their area' already because 'their area' was the former GM Buses North area and they are now operating in the former GM Buses South area.

A counter view may have been that Stagecoach by purchasing Bluebird may have been the first move, and that Finglands was the retaliation (or at least placing a marker)

 

[Mugby]

Am I correct in thinking that Stagecoach wouldn't have been allowed to purchase Finglands for obvious reasons?

 

[radamfi]

I think overall that Stagecoach are the main aggressors here. Until the recent Finglands related expansion, the only First offensive was the extension of the 18 service to the MRI, which isn't that far into the south.

In fact, I can't think of anywhere else where First have retaliated against Stagecoach by running new services in previously Stagecoach only area. In Sheffield and Glasgow, for example, First have merely attempted to defend its 'own' routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Am I correct in thinking that Stagecoach wouldn't have been allowed to purchase Finglands for obvious reasons?

Given that First's takeover was investigated despite no overlap with Finglands routes, Stagecoach would have had no chance.

In the past, though, Stagecoach have taken over most of its competition, including Mayne, Wall's, Dennis' and Bullocks, without any regulatory problems.

 

[mbonwick]

First referred themselves to the OFT prior to agreeing the sale with Finglands.
The exact same occured with Stagecoach/Bluebird - the deal hinged on OFT approval before it would go ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, paragraph 62 of the OFT report into First/Finglands makes interesting reading

Conversely, the OFT has seen some evidence that suggests that First was considering expanding into the south of Manchester notwithstanding the Merger.
However, it is not clear that this expansion would have resulted in competition with Finglands. Further the OFT considers that Stagecoach would have continued to represent a strong competitive constraint

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would I be right in thinking that the service 22 from Stockport to Bolton is a service where both First and Stagecoach regularly enter what has been called "each others areas".

 

[Polo Mint]

Yes, route 53 (Cheetham Hill to Salford) also operates in South Manchester, but was operated by Queens Road depot then First carried the route over when they purchased GM North.

There are some overlapping areas in Tameside from when First purchased Pioneer many years ago.

Now the 18 has been extended from Shudehill to the Royal Infirmary, in Stagecoach territory.

Of course Finglands routes 41/42 and tendered routes 157/99 (also from Finglands)

 

[Y961 XBU]

according to a Stagecoach Employer i spoke to JPT Buses are to go back into service as the OFT are looking into things now, apparently all the JPT Buses have also been declared unfit for service so are undergoing repairs first.

 

[radamfi]

Would I be right in thinking that the service 22 from Stockport to Bolton is a service where both First and Stagecoach regularly enter what has been called "each others areas".

Under GM Buses, the service was jointly run by Stockport and Bolton depots. Therefore this arrangement continued after the split given the practicality of running such a long route.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Am now told the following will enter service again soon

Olympians:
S148 KNK
S156 KNK
P825 SGP

Darts:
P2 JPT
V14 JPT

Trident:
PN02 XBV

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

according to a Stagecoach Employer i spoke to JPT Buses are to go back into service as the OFT are looking into things now, apparently all the JPT Buses have also been declared unfit for service so are undergoing repairs first.

That information shows how worrying it must have been for JPT Travel to have known that all its running fleet were in such a poorly maintained condition.

Has there been any comment about livery upgrades whilst the matter in hand is in progress of correction.

 

[Y961 XBU]

That information shows how worrying it must have been for JPT Travel to have known that all its running fleet were in such a poorly maintained condition.

Has there been any comment about livery upgrades whilst the matter in hand is in progress of correction.

I think Buses will be in JPT Livery with Stagecoach Fleetnames

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think Buses will be in JPT Livery with Stagecoach Fleetnames

I just mentioned this as it appears that all the JPT fleet have to be in need of care and attention in depot somewhere and this work to change over to a Stagecoach livery could be effected during that time.

 

[northwichcat]

First referred themselves to the OFT prior to agreeing the sale with Finglands.
The exact same occured with Stagecoach/Bluebird - the deal hinged on OFT approval before it would go ahead.

Also, paragraph 62 of the OFT report into First/Finglands makes interesting reading

While First Group may have been new to 'South Manchester' services they operate a large number of Manchester services so had expansion not been approved by the OFT they may have been ordered to sell off operations.

When Stagecoach were ordered to do that in Preston they changed which routes were 'Stagecoach' routes and which ones were 'Preston Bus' routes before selling off 'Preston Bus' to keep the more lucrative routes for themselves.

With First purchasing Finglands the competition between Arriva and Finglands may have been more of an issue than the Finglands routes being South Manchester. While Arriva are a big operator they have a small number of routes serving central Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That information shows how worrying it must have been for JPT Travel to have known that all its running fleet were in such a poorly maintained condition.

When North Western Road Car (1986) ran Leyland Nationals they had all the Leyland Nationals based at Skelmersdale grounded for failing safety checks, so it's not just the small operators who have issues keeping their fleets in satisfactory conditions.

 

[Shrimper]

Would I be right in thinking that the service 22 from Stockport to Bolton is a service where both First and Stagecoach regularly enter what has been called "each others areas".

Interestingly, they actually co-operate to an extent, with each others weekly tickets valid with the other operator though I don't think that extends into the evening tendered services from MCT.

 

[radamfi]

Interestingly, they actually co-operate to an extent, with each others weekly tickets valid with the other operator though I don't think that extends into the evening tendered services from MCT.

Joint services are not as common as they once were, but where they exist, mutual ticket acceptance is the norm. The X34 from Leigh to Manchester is a joint service created by the sale of Wigan depot to Stagecoach, and they accept each other's tickets here too.

In the early days of deregulation, there was a bitter bus war between Badgerline and Wilts & Dorset in Salisbury and Poole, however they still managed to operate a joint service between Bristol and Salisbury with joint ticketing.

In many areas, it is a condition of an evening/Sunday tender that they accept tickets of the main weekday operator. This, however, does not apply in Greater Manchester, AFAIK.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Joint services are not as common as they once were, but where they exist, mutual ticket acceptance is the norm. The X34 from Leigh to Manchester is a joint service created by the sale of Wigan depot to Stagecoach, and they accept each other's tickets here too.

In the early days of deregulation, there was a bitter bus war between Badgerline and Wilts & Dorset in Salisbury and Poole, however they still managed to operate a joint service between Bristol and Salisbury with joint ticketing.

In many areas, it is a condition of an evening/Sunday tender that they accept tickets of the main weekday operator. This, however, does not apply in Greater Manchester, AFAIK.

Joint services are a real pain to operators as the CC insist on documentation that shows that the operators are not being anti-competitive

 

[northwichcat]

According to what my Dad once said the conductors on the original (Atherton based) Lancashire United Transport service would only sell tickets as far as the council boundaries even if the service continued beyond that. When the council boundary was crossed a conductor would come around and sell tickets again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

First Group have invaded the former GM Buses South area by taking over Finglands. With Stagecoach also purchasing Bluebird and Wigan operations from First Group, you can't really still say that First Group's area is North Manchester and Stagecoach's area is South Manchester.

How then would you view the new Stagecoach Manchester service 38, due to start on 18th May, that will run from Farnworth, via Little Hulton, Walkden, Swinton and Pendleton through to the Manchester Royal Infirmary.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Former JPT Buses to be used by Stagecoach

Layland Olympians:
H155 BKH (Owned by JPT but never used)
H159 BKH

Wright Liberator
R873 LHG 21073

As seen R873 LHG has gained the fleetnumber it had when Stagecoach last owned it, for Anyone who wants to know, R873 LHG was last used at Stagecoach Merseyside Gillmoss Depot as a cover for when the Newer Buses went down to London for the Olympic Games.

 

[northwichcat]

So will Stagecoach have old Olympians in Stagecoach Manchester livery or will they become Magic Bus vehicles?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Given their age, I'd expect they'd be quickly replaced and won't receive any new livery

 

[mbonwick]

For the moment, nothing will happen as the CMA have decided to investigate.


After that, well I think it's fair to say that the Olympians won't be around for long...

 

[Y961 XBU]

Was sent photos before of R873 LHG, the Fleetnumber and Legals are in White so are not easy to ID, The Bus has for now retained JPT Fleetnames and still has the £2 Day Saver Branding in the front Window, the 2 Layland Olympians have gained a few inside Stagecoach Stickers

Its also worth noting another Forum is claiming that the Layland Olympians have already seen use on School Services, I can confirm this is False information.

 

[mbonwick]

It's spelt Leyland, after the town in Lancashire.

Vehicles will retain the JPT identity until after the CMA clears the takeover.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Leyland Olympian H159 BKH becomes the first former JPT Bus to enter service with Wright Liberator R873 LHG to join it very soon.

 

[83G/84D]

This appeared on one of the Stagecoach Yahoo Groups discussion forums:-

From http://dartslf.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=94&pid=56252#pid56252 Credit: White Van Man

The 41 vehicles transferred to Stagecoach, are confirmed as:-

-?- R931 RAU now 33878
-?- V323 KMY now 33882
112 V14 JPT now 33881
151 P2 JPT now 33877
152 S3 JPT now 33879
153 T430 EBD now 33880
161 W424 WRE now 33883
171 S928 LBL now 35046
173 V385 KVY now 35047
174 V387 KVY now 35048
182 P327 JND now 31327
183 P332 JND now31332
184 P677 NOJ now 31333
255 YX60 DWY now 49895
256 YX60 DWU now 49893
257 YX60 DWZ now 49896
258 YX60 DWV now 49894
259 YX60 DWP now 49892
260 YX60 DWO now 49891
401 BU53 PNV now 29725
403 BX56 XAC now 29726
431 R872 LHG now 21072
432 R867 LHG now 21067
433 R873 LHG now 21073
454 ST59 JPT now 27624
455 RT59 JPT now 27625
-?- H155 BKH now 14071
501 H159 BKH now 14072
512 P825 SGP now 16885
513 P822 SGP now 16886
515 S148 KNK now 16896
516 S156 KNK now 16897
517 S147 KNK now 16898
521 PT51 JPT now 18294
522 RT51 JPT now 18295
530 W472 BCW now 16967
531 PL51 LDY now 16968
532 PJ02 RBX now 16969
533 PN02 XBK now 16970
534 PN02 XBV now 16971
536 PN02 XBJ now 16972
401 has been cannibalised to keep the other on the road
431,432 & 433 have all gone back to their former stagecoach numbers,
The Stagecoach numbers are only for reference purposes at the moment. They haven't physically been applied - and might not be if the buses are note used by Stagecoach!

 

[Y961 XBU]

This appeared on one of the Stagecoach Yahoo Groups discussion forums:-

From http://dartslf.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=94&pid=56252#pid56252 Credit: White Van Man

The 41 vehicles transferred to Stagecoach, are confirmed as:-

-?- R931 RAU now 33878
-?- V323 KMY now 33882
112 V14 JPT now 33881
151 P2 JPT now 33877
152 S3 JPT now 33879
153 T430 EBD now 33880
161 W424 WRE now 33883
171 S928 LBL now 35046
173 V385 KVY now 35047
174 V387 KVY now 35048
182 P327 JND now 31327
183 P332 JND now 31332
184 P677 NOJ now 31333
255 YX60 DWY now 49895
256 YX60 DWU now 49893
257 YX60 DWZ now 49896
258 YX60 DWV now 49894
259 YX60 DWP now 49892
260 YX60 DWO now 49891
401 BU53 PNV now 29725
403 BX56 XAC now 29726
431 R872 LHG now 21072
432 R867 LHG now 21067
433 R873 LHG now 21073
454 ST59 JPT now 27624
455 RT59 JPT now 27625
-?- H155 BKH now 14071
501 H159 BKH now 14072
512 P825 SGP now 16885
513 P822 SGP now 16886
515 S148 KNK now 16896
516 S156 KNK now 16897
517 S147 KNK now 16898
521 PT51 JPT now 18294
522 RT51 JPT now 18295
530 W472 BCW now 16967
531 PL51 LDY now 16968
532 PJ02 RBX now 16969
533 PN02 XBK now 16970
534 PN02 XBV now 16971
536 PN02 XBJ now 16972
401 has been cannibalised to keep the other on the road
431,432 & 433 have all gone back to their former stagecoach numbers,
The Stagecoach numbers are only for reference purposes at the moment. They haven't physically been applied - and might not be if the buses are note used by Stagecoach!

Now theres a few Mistakes there, for starters JPT's 175 is missing, considering it was the only Optare Excel Remaining on the road this surely should be on here! (i think it did have a starter motor issue BUT was starting on its own after a few attempts!) 401 has not been cannibalized, its 403 that was, 433 has had its Stagecoach Fleetnumber applied however 431 and 432 have probs had it as they are missing parts that where used to keep 433 on the road.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
H159 BKH has been on the 118 Service today

 

[MK Tom]

Has anyone got any pictures of JPT vehicles in service with Stagecoach, or with Stagecoach branding?

 

[Y961 XBU]

H159 BKH was again on the 118 today, RT59 JPT has also arrived, still in JPT Livery, am told it could get out tomoz
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
RT59 JPT is now in service (and broke down almost straight away) one of the Presidents is also back in service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
256 YX60 DWU now 49893 just now turned up at Middleton Depot for service, i find it a joke as Middleton Depot are only running the 118 and 156 and as you will know the Primo is far to small for both services.

 

[KendalKing]

Can anybody please confirm, which ex JPT vehicles are currently in use with Stagecoach ?, as I will be in Manchester on Saturday.