Jubilee Line to Heathrow T5 -- is transfer to Piccadilly or Elizabeth faster?

[jamboree7123]

If I'm riding northbound on the Jubilee Line (from Bermondsey station) and want to get to Heathrow Terminal 5 station, which transfer/ride is faster? :

-- debark at Green Park, transfer to Piccadilly Line, ride to Heathrow T5
or
-- debark at Bond Street, transfer to Elizabeth Line, ride to Heathrow T5.

What I'm looking to determine is what is the MAXIMUM overall potential travel time for both options, in a worst-case scenario.

I realize the Elizabeth Line is technically faster than the Piccadilly Line, but cancelling that out is that its potential wait-time and the transfer time are longer.

Here are my rough calculations if already on a Jubilee Line train pulling into Green Park, assuming worst-case scenarios:

Option 1 -- Piccadilly

Debark at Green Park, 5 minutes walk through long transfer tunnels to the Piccadilly Line west-bound platform, wait 10 minutes for next train to Terminal 5, ride 49 minutes = 5+10+49 = 64 minutes total.

Option 2 -- Elizabeth

Stay on train 1 more minute for one more stop to Bond Street, debark at Bond Street, 6 minutes walk through very long transfer tunnels to the Elizabeth Line west-bound platform, wait 20 minutes for next train to Terminal 5, ride 33 minutes = 1+6+20+33 = 60 minutes total.

So it looks like the Elizabeth Line option is 4 minutes faster even in a worst-case scenario, and as much as 14 minutes faster if wait times are less, even taking into account the extra-long walking transfer within the Bond Street station, and the possible 20 minute wait for the next Terminal5-bound train.

But am I missing some detail that would change the calculations? I know there is a shortcut at Green Park to get from Jubilee to Piccadilly a bit quicker ("exit" up to ticket hall, then turn back around down to Jubilee Line), but not sure about the length of the Bond Street Elizabeth Line transfer. Any insight or personal experience with this route would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[PGAT]

I don’t think you missed anything, Elizabeth Line is the better option

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But am I missing some detail that would change the calculations? I know there is a shortcut at Green Park to get from Jubilee to Piccadilly a bit quicker ("exit" up to ticket hall, then turn back around down to Jubilee Line), but not sure about the length of the Bond Street Elizabeth Line transfer. Any insight or personal experience with this route would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Based on this random diagram I've found the back of the train seems to be like the place to be, unfortunately 3d maps of tube stations are very hard to find.

 

[rebmcr]

At the cost of some more waiting variability, you could cut out the long walk at Bond Street by instead using the Bakerloo — cross-platform from the Jubilee at Baker Street, and a shorter connecting passage to the Elizabeth at Paddington.

 

[Bigchris]

Based on this random diagram I've found the back of the train seems to be like the place to be, unfortunately 3d maps of tube stations are very hard to find.

Not sure if you've seen this site, not the clearest diagrams but I find them very useful in most cases:

3D maps of every Underground station

TfL has released a batch of documents which show almost every underground station in glorious 3D format.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not sure if you've seen this site, not the clearest diagrams but I find them very useful in most cases:

3D maps of every Underground station

TfL has released a batch of documents which show almost every underground station in glorious 3D format.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

I had seen them before but couldn't find them again! Thanks so much for saving me the work, it's now bookmarked in my ever expanding bookmarks bar.

 

[jamboree7123]

At the cost of some more waiting variability, you could cut out the long walk at Bond Street by instead using the Bakerloo — cross-platform from the Jubilee at Baker Street, and a shorter connecting passage to the Elizabeth at Paddington.

I'll have a bunch of awkward luggage, so the fewer transfers and fewer get-into-a-carriage-and-find-a-seat hassles, the better -- I'd probably prefer one long transfer-walk + two rides compared to two shorter transfer-walks + three rides.

Based on this random diagram I've found the back of the train seems to be like the place to be, unfortunately 3d maps of tube stations are very hard to find.

Nice! So I think my decision will be to board the back of the train at Bermondsey, to have a shorter transfer walk at Bond Street.

bigchris:
Not sure if you've seen this site, not the clearest diagrams but I find them very useful in most cases:

3D maps of every Underground station​

Yes, I've seen that great site -- but all the diagrams are from 2015. Someone needs to make 2023 axonometric diagrams for all the new Elizabeth Line stations and all the stations that have changed since 2015 (like Bank, etc.)!

I don’t think you missed anything, Elizabeth Line is the better option

OK. Elizabeth Line it shall be.

I'll have a plane to catch on an upcoming morning, so I want to get there as efficiently and speedily as possible. I always employ "minimax" theory to travel calculations -- want to plan routes that minimize the potentially maximally bad worse-case scenario outcome.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Nice! So I think my decision will be to board the back of the train at Bermondsey, to have a shorter transfer walk at Bond Street.

If you're making this journey a lot, you'll figure out exactly which set of doors the best ones are, the diagrams can't show the best view, maybe a carriage or two up from the back might be better, but I just can't tell.

 

[Hadders]

According to my Stationmaster App the appropriate position to be in on a Northbound Jubilee Line train changing to the Elizabeth Line at Bond Street is carriage 4 Door 3 right hand side.

 

[jamboree7123]

According to my Stationmaster App the appropriate position to be in on a Northbound Jubilee Line train changing to the Elizabeth Line at Bond Street is carriage 4 Door 3 right hand side.

Thanks!

If you're making this journey a lot, you'll figure out exactly which set of doors the best ones are, the diagrams can't show the best view, maybe a carriage or two up from the back might be better, but I just can't tell.

Does anybody know just exactly how long is the transfer walk from Jubilee to Elzabeth at Bond Street? Can't seem to find the info anywhere -- I estimated 6 minutes with luggage.

 

[bcarmicle]

Does anybody know just exactly how long is the transfer walk from Jubilee to Elzabeth at Bond Street? Can't seem to find the info anywhere -- I estimated 6 minutes with luggage.

https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2022/10/bond-street-opens.html says 3 min 45 seconds, though no doubt will vary with walking speed and luggage.

 

[madjack]

Don't know if I'm missing something in your calculation, but the T5 trains are every 30 (not 20) minutes.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-timetable-may-2023.pdf

If it were me, I wouldn't choose the EL without planning a particular time, and I'd check on realtimetrains that it was running ok before committing to it - it should leave Shenfield 50 minutes before Bond Street.

 

[Snow1964]

Don't know if I'm missing something in your calculation, but the T5 trains are every 30 (not 20) minutes.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-timetable-may-2023.pdf

If it were me, I wouldn't choose the EL without planning a particular time, and I'd check on realtimetrains that it was running ok before committing to it - it should leave Shenfield 50 minutes before Bond Street.

Yes every 30 minutes.
In theory you could get a Heathrow T4 service, alight at T2&3, stay on same platform and take a Heathrow Express one stop to T5, which would come before next Elizabeth line train to T5 (no premium extra fare applies between the airport stations)

However the T4 trains are timetabled immediately behind T5 trains so this would only help you if you just missed (upto 2 minutes) a T5 Elizabeth line train, otherwise potentially waiting 28 mins for a Heathrow T5 at Bond Street

 

[jon81uk]

Just remember that by default (if you don't get off to tap in and out to split the journey) the Elizabeth Line is over double the price of the Piccadilly line at £13.30 compared to £5.60. Therefore is the small time saving worth the extra cost?

 

[jamboree7123]

Don't know if I'm missing something in your calculation, but the T5 trains are every 30 (not 20) minutes.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-timetable-may-2023.pdf

If it were me, I wouldn't choose the EL without planning a particular time, and I'd check on realtimetrains that it was running ok before committing to it - it should leave Shenfield 50 minutes before Bond Street.

Wow, you're right -- I had read somewhere that they ran every 20 minutes to Terminal 5, but I see now that it's every 30 minutes. I won't be able to time my arrival at Bond Street that exactly, so that changes the calculations -- with an extra 10 minutes of worst-case-scenario waiting time, now the Elizabeth Line option takes longer! So Ive switched my decision back to the Piccadilly Line. Taking a gamble that I will catch a train after just a few minutes when the max wait time is as much as 30 minutes is exactly the type of situation I want to avoid -- when rushing to catch a plane, one must plan a journey that has the fewest risks and uncertainties.

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes every 30 minutes.
In theory you could get a Heathrow T4 service, alight at T2&3, stay on same platform and take a Heathrow Express one stop to T5, which would come before next Elizabeth line train to T5 (no premium extra fare applies between the airport stations)

However the T4 trains are timetabled immediately behind T5 trains so this would only help you if you just missed (upto 2 minutes) a T5 Elizabeth line train, otherwise potentially waiting 28 mins for a Heathrow T5 at Bond Street

You can ride the Heathrow express between Heathrow central and terminal 5 with an Elizabeth line ticket (Technically no ticket because its in the free travel zone)

 

[Mgameing123]

Wow, you're right -- I had read somewhere that they ran every 20 minutes to Terminal 5, but I see now that it's every 30 minutes. I won't be able to time my arrival at Bond Street that exactly, so that changes the calculations -- with an extra 10 minutes of worst-case-scenario waiting time, now the Elizabeth Line option takes longer! So Ive switched my decision back to the Piccadilly Line. Taking a gamble that I will catch a train after just a few minutes when the max wait time is as much as 30 minutes is exactly the type of situation I want to avoid -- when rushing to catch a plane, one must plan a journey that has the fewest risks and uncertainties.

Id pick the Piccadilly Line. Its much cheaper and is more frequent.

 

[hkstudent]

Id pick the Piccadilly Line. Its much cheaper and is more frequent.

Not much more frequent as Heathrow T5 is about every 10 minutes, and there are chances of disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

However the T4 trains are timetabled immediately behind T5 trains so this would only help you if you just missed (upto 2 minutes) a T5 Elizabeth line train, otherwise potentially waiting 28 mins for a Heathrow T5 at Bond Street

Theres 4 x T4 trains per hour from Bond Street, and each one of them has a Heathrow Express for T5 right behind it at Heathrow Central.

 

[Taunton]

If you are actually on the Elizabeth (as we are at Canary Wharf) then it's better, but if elsewhere in Zone 1, particularly on the south side, Piccadilly just feels an advantage.

Piccadilly has the long drag through all the stops between South Ealing and Hounslow West, which have always seemed to go on for ever, particularly in winter when the cold blows in but nobody gets in or out. Elizabeth just seems to have long waits, especially if going to T5 then it's always a T4 train that comes, and always another long wait at Heathrow Central for the last leg on the free Express. I've never known one right behind.

On the return, the indicators at Heathrow Central platform are so convoluted that you need a degree in recent transport developments (and a good pair of spectacles) to understand them. Excuse me, Mr Foreign Traveller, do you want to go to London Paddington or to a place you've never heard of called Abbey Wood?

 

[Bald Rick]

especially if going to T5 then it's always a T4 train that comes, and always another long wait at Heathrow Central for the last leg on the free Express. I've never known one right behind.

Hyperbole surely.

I‘ve had to go to LHR T5 by EL a few times recently, and had a slightly better than a 1:3 success rate with T5 trains being first. Which is what statistical analysis suggests.

And when I’ve caught the T4 trains there has always been a HEX right behind (As in the next train, and a few minutes wait).

Anecdote being the worst form of evidence I have checked todays actual performance, which hasn’t been great for Elizabeth Line services due to an axle counter failure at OOC this morning. However, so far today, of the 60 EL trains to T4 that ran and were scheduled to have a HEX service to T5 within 5-6 minutes behind it, 53 of them had a service to T5 within 6 minutes. That’s an 88% success rate, on a day with disruption.

 

[Taunton]

I‘ve had to go to LHR T5 by EL a few times recently, and had a slightly better than a 1:3 success rate with T5 trains being first. Which is what statistical analysis suggests.

Unfortunately I'm starting as stated from Canary Wharf. From where all the T5 trains, useful for a short while, have now been eliminated in the current timetable, and only the T4 ones remain.

Quite how Canary Wharf Management and British Airways between them managed to allow this, with all the CWM support for the project I'm not quite sure, given that all the banks there I've come into contact with have their major corporate travel deals with BA. I guess that CWM's current ownership by the Qatar Investment Authority, and Qatar Airways moving over into Terminal 4, has something to do with it.

 

[jon81uk]

Excuse me, Mr Foreign Traveller, do you want to go to London Paddington or to a place you've never heard of called Abbey Wood?

But this is true of all international travel, almost every time I’ve got a train in a foreign city I have to check the destination multiple times as the end of the line is never something familiar to tourists. Airports are usually at the end of the line at least, but in city centres I’ve boarded trains in the wrong direction before.

The bigger issue at Heathrow is that expensive(twice the price) express trains share the platform with cheaper stopping trains.

 

[Mgameing123]

Not much more frequent as Heathrow T5 is about every 10 minutes, and there are chances of disruption.

Well Elizabeth line runs every 30 minutes so not sure how thats more frequent. Also what makes Piccadilly better is the price.

 

[A60stock]

If you are actually on the Elizabeth (as we are at Canary Wharf) then it's better, but if elsewhere in Zone 1, particularly on the south side, Piccadilly just feels an advantage.

Piccadilly has the long drag through all the stops between South Ealing and Hounslow West, which have always seemed to go on for ever, particularly in winter when the cold blows in but nobody gets in or out. Elizabeth just seems to have long waits, especially if going to T5 then it's always a T4 train that comes, and always another long wait at Heathrow Central for the last leg on the free Express. I've never known one right behind.

On the return, the indicators at Heathrow Central platform are so convoluted that you need a degree in recent transport developments (and a good pair of spectacles) to understand them. Excuse me, Mr Foreign Traveller, do you want to go to London Paddington or to a place you've never heard of called Abbey Wood?

The solution to this is surely to have the trains say Abbey Wood via London Paddington/Canary Wharf? I think via Canary Wharf is already used. Do the indicators just say "Abbey Wood"?

 

[Taunton]

The solution to this is surely to have the trains say Abbey Wood via London Paddington/Canary Wharf? I think via Canary Wharf is already used. Do the indicators just say "Abbey Wood"?

They say Abbey Wood, boldly, and a scrolling list underneath of all the stops, with Paddington being just one of the many that passes.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well Elizabeth line runs every 30 minutes so not sure how thats more frequent. Also what makes Piccadilly better is the price.

Because there Is a Heathrow express about 5 mins behind the terminal 4 trains at Heathrow

 

[hkstudent]

They say Abbey Wood, boldly, and a scrolling list underneath of all the stops, with Paddington being just one of the many that passes.

It would be more clever if MTR-Elizabeth Line to ask the destination to be marked as Abbey Wood via Central London

 

[Mgameing123]

Because there Is a Heathrow express about 5 mins behind the terminal 4 trains at Heathrow

You need to pay a premium to use HX

 

[stuu]

You need to pay a premium to use HX

No you don't, it is free between terminals