Just an old tree- or what the hell is happening in society?

[jon0844]

There has been loads of coverage of the tragic murder in Croydon, and I hope this might trigger some action to try and deal with the growing problem of knife crime.

While knives are less deadly than assault rifles, in our own way we now have a situation where knife crime is so common that usually it's a case of 'thoughts and prayers' and move on.

As for the tree, I hope we'll find out the motive for doing it. If it was a prank for clout, or part of a new viral challenge that means we're going to see copycat incidents (or other vandalism), then we need to deal with that too.

 

[nw1]

I’m under no illusions about the rubbish side of society during that period. But if I was born in the 70s I’d be ‘coming of age’ in the late 80s/early 90s. Who knows, I could have been even unhappier than I am now, but it seemed around that time there was some positivity about the direction the world was taking. The fall of the iron curtain for one, and social issues all seemed to be taking a positive direction. I’d also be very positive about the results of the 1997 election.

Speaking as someone who turned 18 sometime around then, I would tend to agree that the western world was indeed a better place, on the whole, in the period between about 1989 (the end of the cold war) and about 2007.

There was a lot of positivity and optimism around 1989/90, with such things as the end of the cold war and release of Nelson Mandela, for example, and it seemed that there was a move, starting with the younger generation in the late 80s but then permeating across the generations into the 90s, to a more liberal society and moving on beyond Thatcherism. Things went a bit wrong in the early 90s recession, before improving again in the mid-90s.

It wasn't perfect, and there were big problems at times, but it seems to me that things started going downhill around the credit crunch and has really accelerated in the past 8 years or so. The growth of right-wing populism, typified by Trump, followed by Covid and its aftermath are, of course, major contributors to that, but I think the credit crunch was a really key moment. For one thing, I think it, more than anything else, fuelled the rise of Trump and his ilk.

But - having said that - that's not really relevant to the tree story. I think that could have happened at any time.

I do think people despairing about the present and being nostalgic about the past is a generational thing. Society isn't perfect but we need to stop laser focusing on the negatives.

I wonder though whether the 2020s are more absolutely grim, irrespective of generation. So far, it seems to have been a decade with very little going for it at all, certainly when compared with other recent decades.

Covid, its aftermath, the war in Ukraine and the high cost of living are/were major problems internationally, and in the UK we have our own problems on top of that.

Would be interesting to see if someone born at the start of the 21st century will be nostalgic for the early 2020s when they turn 40 or 50. I rather suspect not (unless the coming 20 or 30 years are even worse, of course...)

 

[Busaholic]

The Croydon news cycle has stopped with the arrest of the boy responsible

I don't believe that is the case at all. The boy will be appearing at the Old Bailey next week, which may well be the main item in at least one day's news. The event was far from 'another knife death in Croydon almost certainly caused by gang warfare' type story, though I believe too many assumptions are being made as to what happened, as reported by main news outlets. The BBC even led a news bulletin by saying a 17 year old man had been arrested by the police, a mistake of great carelessness. After five teenagers lost their lives in Croydon borough through being stabbed in 2021, the epidemic had stopped until this week and there is no reason to think that there will be any reprisals for the latest horrendous killing.

 

[Thirteen]

Speaking as someone who turned 18 sometime around then, I would tend to agree that the western world was indeed a better place, on the whole, in the period between about 1989 (the end of the cold war) and about 2007.

There was a lot of positivity and optimism around 1989/90, with such things as the end of the cold war and release of Nelson Mandela, for example, and it seemed that there was a move, starting with the younger generation in the late 80s but then permeating across the generations into the 90s, to a more liberal society and moving on beyond Thatcherism. Things went a bit wrong in the early 90s recession, before improving again in the mid-90s.

It wasn't perfect, and there were big problems at times, but it seems to me that things started going downhill around the credit crunch and has really accelerated in the past 8 years or so. The growth of right-wing populism, typified by Trump, followed by Covid and its aftermath are, of course, major contributors to that, but I think the credit crunch was a really key moment. For one thing, I think it, more than anything else, fuelled the rise of Trump and his ilk.

But - having said that - that's not really relevant to the tree story. I think that could have happened at any time.



I wonder though whether the 2020s are more absolutely grim, irrespective of generation. So far, it seems to have been a decade with very little going for it at all, certainly when compared with other recent decades.

Covid, its aftermath, the war in Ukraine and the high cost of living are/were major problems internationally, and in the UK we have our own problems on top of that.

Would be interesting to see if someone born at the start of the 21st century will be nostalgic for the early 2020s when they turn 40 or 50. I rather suspect not (unless the coming 20 or 30 years are even worse, of course...)

Surely the period between 1939-1945 was likely the worse period.

We're only in the third year of the 2020s, it's nuts to write off a decade which isn't even half over.

 

[nw1]

Surely the period between 1939-1945 was likely the worse period.

Yes but I was comparing against recent decades, and focusing on the modern era.

I was trying to say, that irrespective of generation, I would expect the 2020s (so far) to be objectively considered as worse than the 2010s, the 00s, the 90s and the 80s.

We're only in the third year of the 2020s, it's nuts to write off a decade which isn't even half over.

Almost at the end of the fourth, with little prospect of radical improvement in the next 12 months or so: so the entire first half will be remembered less than fondly by most, I suspect.

 

[J-2739]

I was trying to say, that irrespective of generation, I would expect the 2020s (so far) to be objectively considered as worse than the 2010s, the 00s, the 90s and the 80s.

I somehow think that one is a stretch.

 

[brad465]

The BBC is running a live reaction thread right now on the tree! It's the third most popular item on the app. There are six separate stories on it on one app, and five to the Croydon murder, none of which invited anyone for their live reaction of shock or revulsion.

The Croydon news cycle has stopped with the arrest of the boy responsible, but the tree one will run and run for a day or two yet. Mental country - the tree is symptomatic of a wider malaise in society but it's not just the vandalism. The reactions to it in some quarters are almost religious. People want a boy jailed for cutting down a tree!

"I dream of a day when I walk down the street and hear people talk about morality, sustainability and philosophy, instead of Kardashians." - Keanu Reeves

 

[Darandio]

And now a man in his 60's has been arrested according to the BBC. Not really anything to quote right now, it's a breaking story.

 

[najaB]

The BBC even led a news bulletin by saying a 17 year old man had been arrested by the police, a mistake of great carelessness.

Given that they're likely to be charged as an adult, not that big of a mistake.

 

[450.emu]

The BBC is running a live reaction thread right now on the tree! It's the third most popular item on the app. There are six separate stories on it on one app, and five to the Croydon murder, none of which invited anyone for their live reaction of shock or revulsion.

The Croydon news cycle has stopped with the arrest of the boy responsible, but the tree one will run and run for a day or two yet. Mental country - the tree is symptomatic of a wider malaise in society but it's not just the vandalism. The reactions to it in some quarters are almost religious. People want a boy jailed for cutting down a tree!

I wouldn't put it past the authorities to send him to Rwanda...

There is a wider malaise, a poor government, 13 years of chaos, the same poor deck of cards no matter who takes over, costs of living crisis... probably why we are seeing so much industrial action in so many sectors, not just in transport. Sadly the political elite are cut off from reality, so if it doesn't affect them directly, very little will happen

 

[Busaholic]

Given that they're likely to be charged as an adult, not that big of a mistake.

Given that a 17 year old murder suspect cannot be named, unlike a man of 18, it's a big mistake. Whether the same applies in Scotland, I have no idea.

 

[Irascible]

I’m under no illusions about the rubbish side of society during that period. But if I was born in the 70s I’d be ‘coming of age’ in the late 80s/early 90s. Who knows, I could have been even unhappier than I am now, but it seemed around that time there was some positivity about the direction the world was taking. The fall of the iron curtain for one, and social issues all seemed to be taking a positive direction. I’d also be very positive about the results of the 1997 election.

The end of the cold war was an amazing release yes, a quite astonishing thing to live through - but other than the threat of being roasted under a rain of missiles it didn't really affect day to day life immediately. There was still a massive recession, people were still being blown up by the IRA, I and my friends still had to keep wary eyes out for being a bit different & try and keep an eye on the locals who were really under the social hammer in case they needed baling out. Social matters *were* moving in the right direction, but you'd have to experience how far down they had to come from to believe it. It's easy to be positive if you're just seeing a little light.

If you were poor & ended up too sick to work you were at the mercy of the local council. There have been positive changes in welfare despite the attacks.

You'd be surprised how much industry we had though, the 80s schools of economics & terrible education hadn't managed to wreck everything yet.

Yes, but us oldies can remember a past that was significantly different: the young can’t go that far back. I could also say that, although there was a risk of nuclear war or annihilation, that was remote to daily life. Getting knifed on the bus is rather too close to daily life.

It might be telling that when I moved to London in 1991 & after 3 months moved to Dalston ( I don't know what it's like these days, but it was one of the slightly better ganglands back then ), I felt worlds safer than where I grew up. People were getting knifed regularily back then too, pepole on buses, kids, mothers, whoever.

Surely the period between 1939-1945 was likely the worse period.

We're only in the third year of the 2020s, it's nuts to write off a decade which isn't even half over.

Economically that period was dire. Socially ( for someone who'd just left school with low expectations ) there was a lot going on. There was also a growing supply of cocaine & the government's attack on civil liberties, which tends to get forgotten.

--

Imagine being born in 50s Britain & seeing the complete collapse of pretty much all you'd grown up with in the 70s - your currency has collapsed, your country is no longer a superpower, industry is in a shambles, socially you've had a decade that tried to turn everything on it's head & only partly succeeded, you'd think everything was on the verge of falling apart. And yet here we still are.

 

[Railcar]

If it was a clean cut, why not create a new 'attraction' by placing the top half on the stump, held in place with a stout peg and some industrial-strengthe glue? O.K., there won't be a leaf canopy in the spring, but making some 'leaves' for the poor old tree could be a project for the local primary achools . . . . and a lesson for the youger generation.

 

[BrianW]

If it was a clean cut, why not create a new 'attraction' by placing the top half on the stump, held in place with a stout peg and some industrial-strengthe glue? O.K., there won't be a leaf canopy in the spring, but making some 'leaves' for the poor old tree could be a project for the local primary achools . . . . and a lesson for the youger generation.

While I expect that winds funneling through, and appropriate H&S, will require more that a stout peg and glue of whatever strength , I like the blue sky thinking here. Certainly scope for a competition, and far superior to spending money, even if it might be covered by insurance.

 

[GusB]

It's rather sad that some people have been trying to take souvenirs.

Public urged not to take branches from Sycamore Gap tree as souvenirs

Visitors caught trying to take pieces as crowd flock to site, while National Trust hope tree might regrow from stump

www.theguardian.com

Members of the public have been urged not to try to take branches from the felled Sycamore Gap tree as souvenirs. Some visitors have been caught by police attempting to take pieces of the tree, which belongs to the National Trust, from inside the police cordon.

I'm not sure how viable this will actually be in practice, but there is some hope that, due to the health of the tree before it was felled, it may regrow over time. Obviously it won't happen overnight.

The National Trust and Northumberland national park hope the tree might regrow, which is common for sycamores, though the age of the tree might make this difficult.

The National Trust general manager, Andrew Poad, told BBC Breakfast: “It’s a very healthy tree, we can see that now, because of the condition of the stump, it may well regrow a coppice from the stump, and if we could nurture that then that might be one of the best outcomes, and then we keep the tree.”

The National Trust said rangers had been out to collect seeds and pieces of the tree to graft, though it “is not the ideal time”.

A National Trust spokesperson said on Friday: “Our ranger team have been on site today to collect seed and scion wood [ie this season’s growth which is suitable for grafting] to send to our plant conservation centre.

 

[Purple Train]

It's rather sad that some people have been trying to take souvenirs.

Yet another symbol of what's happening in society, sadly.

 

[al78]

No. Unless you enjoy the rampant paranoia of being one step from a nuclear holocaust ( the world very nearly didn't live through 1983 ), still the same regular outbreaks of domestic terrorism, the massive mess that was Britain in the the 70s, vastly more bigotry & inequality and you'd have left school into the worst recession we'd ever had.

That's debatable. The 2008 global financial crisis arguably affected the UK worse than this, plus it stimulated a prolonged period of austerity and the UK's economy and productivity still has not recovered fully from this, although the COVID induced recession at least partially contributed.

I do think people despairing about the present and being nostalgic about the past is a generational thing. Society isn't perfect but we need to stop laser focusing on the negatives.

Yes:

Exploring Nostalgia Bias

A Personal Perspective: Why are we so attached to our mediocre childhoods?

www.psychologytoday.com

• Middle-aged adults often look back on their childhoods with fond feelings or nostalgia.
• Sometimes we exaggerate how good our childhoods actually were.
• Perhaps nostalgia is a normal part of taking stock of life and mortality.

 

[najaB]

Yet another symbol of what's happening in society, sadly.

Depends on why they're taking them. If it's just to have a souvenir then I'd agree. But some of the people may well be trying to get cuttings to try and re-grow the tree and continue its existence - and I wouldn't criticise anybody with that intent.

 

[al78]

The BBC is running a live reaction thread right now on the tree! It's the third most popular item on the app. There are six separate stories on it on one app, and five to the Croydon murder, none of which invited anyone for their live reaction of shock or revulsion.

The Croydon news cycle has stopped with the arrest of the boy responsible, but the tree one will run and run for a day or two yet. Mental country - the tree is symptomatic of a wider malaise in society but it's not just the vandalism. The reactions to it in some quarters are almost religious. People want a boy jailed for cutting down a tree!

It is because the tree itself is very symbolic and because of its great age cannot be replaced, or at least not for many lifetimes. It is almost equivalent to an arsonist burning down a 1000 year old historic building (or look at the news coverage on the Crooked House pub fire). It is an emotional response not a rational one. You will notice for example that no-one is getting up in arms about the thousands of direct and indirect deaths and serious injuries caused by motor vehicles every year, in fact quite the oppoosite, there is objection to any restrictions on drivers to combat such trivial and unimportant things as poor air quality and deaths on residential streets. The butchering of one tree is, on the other hand, abominable.

 

[stevetay3]

No. Unless you enjoy the rampant paranoia of being one step from a nuclear holocaust ( the world very nearly didn't live through 1983 ), still the same regular outbreaks of domestic terrorism, the massive mess that was Britain in the the 70s, vastly more bigotry & inequality and you'd have left school into the worst recession we'd ever had.

Bonuses, there hadn't been a concerted attack on the welfare state - especially for students, although as a 70s kid you'd have missed the best parts.

Are we still not one step from a nuclear or some other disaster.What happened in 1983 I can’t remember any thing that year and I lived through the Cuban crisis in the sixties and well remember that.

 

[uglymonkey]

I think it was a computer glitch at a Soviet tracking station , which showed multiple blips coupled with an unconnected big exercise ( lots of tanks) on Warsaw pack border, convinced some Soviets that they were under conventional and imminent nuclear attack. Luckly saner,cooler minds prevailed and the button wasnt pushed, but it was a very close call.

 

[najaB]

What happened in 1983 I can’t remember any thing that year and I lived through the Cuban crisis in the sixties and well remember that.

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident

Luckly saner,cooler minds prevailed and the button wasnt pushed, but it was a very close call.

More accurate to say that a single saner, cooler mind prevailed. Soviet doctrine at the time was to immediately launch a counter-attack if incoming American missiles were detected.

 

[uglymonkey]

Year after the Falklands as well, which showed we could get "down and dirty" if we wanted - they thought we were too soft. Ramping up tension a little more.

 

[randyrippley]

Sycamores are non-native weeds from Spain. All parts of the tree but especially the seeds are lethally toxic to horses and other animals. Together with a habit of shedding large branches (never Park under one) and wide spread shallow roots which easily undermine buildings there's a good case for eradicating them.

 

[Dr_Paul]

There won't be many 16 year olds who have access to a chain saw and have the ability to use it even in rural Northumberland.

White paint has been carefully marked where the cuts should be made. That seems unusual but the cuts look very clean. The 16 year old didnt walk up there, and back, with a chain saw all on his own. A quad bike maybe?

The motive is obscure. There's more to this story.

I tend to agree. This isn't some drunken hooligan heaving a brickbat through a window after too many many down the boozer, or even a lad going down to his local railway depot and spraying his tag on a carriage or two. A neatly cut down tree: how many people know how to do that?

 

[jon0844]

Sycamores are non-native weeds from Spain. All parts of the tree but especially the seeds are lethally toxic to horses and other animals. Together with a habit of shedding large branches (never Park under one) and wide spread shallow roots which easily undermine buildings there's a good case for eradicating them.

Where were you earlier this week?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Sycamores are non-native weeds from Spain. All parts of the tree but especially the seeds are lethally toxic to horses and other animals. Together with a habit of shedding large branches (never Park under one) and wide spread shallow roots which easily undermine buildings there's a good case for eradicating them.

I also noticed the ironic situation here. Quite a few people I know have got rid of sycamore trees from their gardens: 'self-seeding nuisances' is one of the more polite terms for them.

 

[uglymonkey]

Indeed I had a massive one chopped down, as it started to undermine things and the sticky residue over everything is horrible.

 

[najaB]

Sycamores are non-native weeds from Spain. All parts of the tree but especially the seeds are lethally toxic to horses and other animals. Together with a habit of shedding large branches (never Park under one) and wide spread shallow roots which easily undermine buildings there's a good case for eradicating them.

You've made a case for not planting them in built-up areas, nothing more.

 

[randyrippley]

You've made a case for not planting them in built-up areas, nothing more.

You've ignored the toxicity problem.
It wouldn't surprise me if the ultimate motive behind the felling was livestock protection.