Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[OrangeJuice]

It's aimed at the caravan trade not through traffic plus there's pathing issues to Dovey Junction and beyond.

I can see that being an issue, short of adding another loop at Dovey Junction or doubling to Machynlleth there will be limitations which is annoying as the extra trains would be very useful

 

[Gareth Marston]

Highly disappointing. So that's the present issues not solved, then, and barely any room for growth. And all that so they could have a fleet replacement.

They'd be better off keeping the 175s and 158s and adding in a smaller number of new-build, ideally 4-car formations with 1st for proper long distance stuff.

Or might something else stay when they (like LM with the 321s then 319s) realise they didn't *quite* order enough? (I know they're getting some new, but for now the LNR fleet is basically short 10 class 350s, coincidentally the same number TPE have).

The biggest problem we have is when services are short formed. 2 instead of 4 etc. hopefully a new fleet will see the end of "more trains needing maintainence than normal" which sometimes feels like it is the norm!

The cascades may free up the 3 158's that operate diagrams across South Wales so things might be a bit better from 2020.
Longer term if everything from Aberystwyth runs through to Birmingham it should spread the long distance loads out more every.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem we have is when services are short formed. 2 instead of 4 etc. hopefully a new fleet will see the end of "more trains needing maintainence than normal" which sometimes feels like it is the norm!

The cascades may free up the 3 158's that operate diagrams across South Wales so things might be a bit better from 2020.
Longer term if everything from Aberystwyth runs through to Birmingham it should spread the long distance loads out more every.

But, while it is a rural route so there will be limits to this, a more frequent service will have the "sparks effect" and will grow custom.

Echoes of Operation Pumpkin? I've long for example said that MKC-East Croydon needs either 8-car hourly (as it now has) or 8-car half hourly. Up the frequency and usage will rocket as well.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Don’t panic! All capacity issues will be resolved with the announcement of Vivarail’s “innovative” Class 230 D-Trains on the Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston and Chester-Crewe shuttles. Looks like the truth is starting to come out as far as some of the “new” trains are concerned. What a joke, cast-off rubbish that London didn’t want and pretty much older than most stock ATW has, pitched as “progress” and “improvements” in north Wales. It’s ok though, the retrofitted bogs are made in Cwmbran so that’s good apparently!

Have a read...

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

 

[Dai Corner]

Don’t panic! All capacity issues will be resolved with the announcement of Vivarail’s Class 230 D-Trains on the Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston and Chester-Crewe shuttles. Looks like the truth is starting to come out as far as some of the “new” trains are concerned. What a joke, cast-off rubbish that London didn’t want and pretty much older than most stock ATW has, pitched as “progress” and “improvements” in north Wales.

Have a read...

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

Apparently the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association have seen them and really like them.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Apparently the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association have seen them and really like them.

They may be great don’t get me wrong, but it feels like a bit of a cop-out when so much has been promised. It’s very disappointing compared to the investment stated for the highly coveted “South Wales Metro”.

 

[The Ham]

It's aimed at the caravan trade not through traffic plus there's pathing issues to Dovey Junction and beyond.

Am I the only one with flashbacks to the Top Gear where they tried using cars and caravans to run then as trains when I read this?

 

[The Ham]

They may be great don’t get me wrong, but it feels like a bit of a cop-out when so much has been promised. It’s very disappointing compared to the investment stated for the highly coveted “South Wales Metro”.

You also have to bear in mind that the 230's are turning up early next year, whilst some of the brand new trains are a few years away.

As such, although the Pacers are being replaced it could be 6-9 months after the 230's arrive that the Pacers go and even then a further 3 years before the full fleet is in operation.

Which is likely to mean up to 3 years of never being sure what type of train you are going to get, with the possibility of some quite old (possibly even not recently refurbished) trains turning up for quite a long time.

If the 230's are refurbished to a high quality then their age and where they used to be are a fairly minor issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is likely to mean up to 3 years of never being sure what type of train you are going to get, with the possibility of some quite old (possibly even not recently refurbished) trains turning up for quite a long time.

The "random unit generator" has been in operation on Northern for many years - just widening its scope a bit

 

[Dai Corner]

The "random unit generator" has been in operation on Northern for many years - just widening its scope a bit

Let's hope the train crew training goes better than it has at some other TOCs.

 

[CambrianCoast]

You also have to bear in mind that the 230's are turning up early next year, whilst some of the brand new trains are a few years away.

As such, although the Pacers are being replaced it could be 6-9 months after the 230's arrive that the Pacers go and even then a further 3 years before the full fleet is in operation.

Which is likely to mean up to 3 years of never being sure what type of train you are going to get, with the possibility of some quite old (possibly even not recently refurbished) trains turning up for quite a long time.

If the 230's are refurbished to a high quality then their age and where they used to be are a fairly minor issues.

I don’t see why they’re ditching the 150s on these routes so quickly. There’s nothing wrong with them and as seen from other TOCs the toilet module retrofit seems to work so I’m dubious as to why rushing the introduction of the 230s is seen as such a coup. I’m still unconvinced!

 

[Phil from Mon]

That's interesting - a completely isolated non-connectional service. Is there a very high amount of local demand that vastly outstrips demand to connect at Mach? That isn't at all my observation.

Whenever I have been on the Cambrian coast in summer there has been huge demand between Dyffryn Ardudwy and Barmouth

 

[CambrianCoast]

Whenever I have been on the Cambrian coast in summer there has been huge demand between Dyffryn Ardudwy and Barmouth

I agree, this service will be very popular and will be very much welcomed by locals and summer visitors alike!

 

[geoffk]

The T stands for Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales.

Why the obsession with white trains?

 

[B&I]

If the 230s enable a faster and more frequent service Wrexham-Bidston I am fine with that. The 150s are needed elsewhere, and the superior acceleration of the 230s will comee in useful on a low speed, frequent stop route. Hopefully it will generate enough extra traffic to push the powers that be into integrating this line into Merseyrail

 

[daikilo]

If the 230s enable a faster and more frequent service Wrexham-Bidston I am fine with that. Hopefully it will generate enough extra traffic to push the powers that be into integrating this line into Merseyrail

An hourly service is unlikely to do that, even half-hourly will be a big challenge. Bidston can be wet, windy and cold! I'm hoping the Merseyrail Stadler battery train(s) will resolve that by running to say Neston or Shotton.

 

[northwichcat]

I don’t see why they’re ditching the 150s on these routes so quickly. There’s nothing wrong with them and as seen from other TOCs the toilet module retrofit seems to work so I’m dubious as to why rushing the introduction of the 230s is seen as such a coup. I’m still unconvinced!

It's so the 150s can be cascaded down to the Cardiff area so the Cardiff area can dispose of their Pacers before the end of 2019.

 

[CambrianCoast]

It's so the 150s can be cascaded down to the Cardiff area so the Cardiff area can dispose of their Pacers before the end of 2019.

Should have guessed.

 

[MarkyT]

An hourly service is unlikely to do that, even half-hourly will be a big challenge. Bidston can be wet, windy and cold! I'm hoping the Merseyrail Stadler battery train(s) will resolve that by running to say Neston or Shotton.

Interesting idea. I suppose if you assume almost nobody actually wants to go to Bidston itself, then where the interchange to Merseyrail takes place doesn't really matter to passengers from the further reaches of the line. A 30 minute interval service direct from the Liverpool loop to Neston might be popular and could have a well timed connection with the TfW trains on to Wrexham there.

 

[Parallel]

I agree, this service will be very popular and will be very much welcomed by locals and summer visitors alike!

Indeed. Summer trains are very busy on the route. Last summer I took a service to Machynlleth that was full and standing from Llandecwyn, mainly due to hikers, activity groups and other tourist traffic. Talsarnau is a decent sized village in its own right and Llanbedr, Dyffryn Ardudwy and Talybont all provide a fair amount of traffic. Morfa Mawddach is also popular with people parking and travelling to/from Barmouth (Its a nice walk over the bridge though) - Llwyngwril is a decent sized village in its own right and Penhelig is closest to most of Aberdovey than Aberdovey is.

Even then the lesser used request stops still provide local traffic, and schools traffic outside of summer. A summer hourly service would be a great benefit to the line. So turnarounds aren’t too tight, you could probably get away at turning around the extras at Dovey Junction (connecting with the Aber service) if train crew permits, or Porthmadog/Criccieth northbound. Running hourly would be possible with current infrastructure but not much scope for if things go wrong.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the 230s enable a faster and more frequent service Wrexham-Bidston I am fine with that. The 150s are needed elsewhere, and the superior acceleration of the 230s will comee in useful on a low speed, frequent stop route. Hopefully it will generate enough extra traffic to push the powers that be into integrating this line into Merseyrail

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/what-new-rail-franchise-mean-14762263

The plan is to replace stock on these services so that they could operate from Wrexham direct to Liverpool, They would be diesel-electric bimodal trains. Economy Secretary Mr Skates said talks were at an advanced stage with Merseyrail about the direct service into Liverpool.

 

[northwichcat]

If the 230s enable a faster and more frequent service Wrexham-Bidston I am fine with that. The 150s are needed elsewhere, and the superior acceleration of the 230s will comee in useful on a low speed, frequent stop route. Hopefully it will generate enough extra traffic to push the powers that be into integrating this line into Merseyrail

It will mean that eventually but they'll be over 2 years of D-Trains running to the current timetable before Borderlands gets extra services.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Indeed. Summer trains are very busy on the route. Last summer I took a service to Machynlleth that was full and standing from Llandecwyn, mainly due to hikers, activity groups and other tourist traffic. Talsarnau is a decent sized village in its own right and Llanbedr, Dyffryn Ardudwy and Talybont all provide a fair amount of traffic. Morfa Mawddach is also popular with people parking and travelling to/from Barmouth (Its a nice walk over the bridge though) - Llwyngwril is a decent sized village in its own right and Penhelig is closest to most of Aberdovey than Aberdovey is.

Even then the lesser used request stops still provide local traffic, and schools traffic outside of summer. A summer hourly service would be a great benefit to the line. So turnarounds aren’t too tight, you could probably get away at turning around the extras at Dovey Junction (connecting with the Aber service) if train crew permits, or Porthmadog/Criccieth northbound. Running hourly would be possible with current infrastructure but not much scope for if things go wrong.

They might need to rejig the timetable in one direction to turn around at Dovey Junction as when the extra would get to Dovey the through train would be coming the other way 10 mind later or so.

I think that may be a solution instead of adding another passing loop at Dovey Junction

 

[MarkyT]

That's excellent news regarding the Wrexham trains being able to access Liverpool. Perhaps eventually, the 30 minute interval TfW Wrexham trains might also be supplemented by some Merseyrail battery equipped trains as far as Neston to provide an even more attractive 15 minute interval service.

 

[Chester1]

That's excellent news regarding the Wrexham trains being able to access Liverpool. Perhaps eventually, the 30 minute interval TfW Wrexham trains might also be supplemented by some Merseyrail battery equipped trains as far as Neston to provide an even more attractive 15 minute interval service.

If a deal is reached it will probably end any chance of Merseyrail running any services on the line for a very long time. Why would they choose to complete with each other any more than necessary? The 230s will be considerably cheaper and a half hourly service into Liverpool would be huge improvement. There are limitations to how many services can run around the loop. Currently 16tph run peak and 14tph off peak. Merseytravel won't fund any further units for Merseyrail because it won't be able to afford to buy more if they stop their DOO plans and cut station staff instead.

 

[northwichcat]

If a deal is reached it will probably end any chance of Merseyrail running any services on the line for a very long time. Why would they choose to complete with each other any more than necessary? The 230s will be considerably cheaper and a half hourly service into Liverpool would be huge improvement. There are limitations to how many services can run around the loop. Currently 16tph run peak and 14tph off peak. Merseytravel won't fund any further units for Merseyrail because it won't be able to afford to buy more if they stop their DOO plans and cut station staff instead.

The interesting thing is 4 D-Trains will be needed for the half-hourly Bidston to Wrexham service, so even putting the spare unit in service wouldn't allow for a half-hourly Liverpool to Wrexham and there was no mention of a possible add-on order in the Vivarail release. Maybe Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham isn't as close to becoming reality as Mr Skates will have us believe?

 

[krus_aragon]

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/what-new-rail-franchise-mean-14762263

If Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham comes off, there'll be a small follow-on order of 230s (or a replacement). A round trip time of just under 3 hours means you'd need six units in service, with only five ordered so far.

 

[MarkyT]

If a deal is reached it will probably end any chance of Merseyrail running any services on the line for a very long time. Why would they choose to complete with each other any more than necessary? The 230s will be considerably cheaper and a half hourly service into Liverpool would be huge improvement. There are limitations to how many services can run around the loop. Currently 16tph run peak and 14tph off peak. Merseytravel won't fund any further units for Merseyrail because it won't be able to afford to buy more if they stop their DOO plans and cut station staff instead.

I don't mind who provides the services, but suddenly getting through trains to Liverpool from Neston and Heswall is likely to greatly increase the service's attractiveness at that end of the line so it might become sensible, even neccessary, to run some peak short terminators at least turning back at Neston or Shotton to handle the load. These could be additional TfW D-Trains of course. I don't imagine Merseyrail and Keolis competing as such in this area but rather working in partnership. I would expect inter-availability of tickets for example. I tend to agree that 16TPH is approaching the limit for manual driving. The new Stadlers might be compatible with future automation if the loop was resignalled using Thameslink style Hybrid ETCS/ATO techniques, but the D-trains might be more of a challenge although I understand they have a complete new traction system installed.

 

[daikilo]

If Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham comes off, there'll be a small follow-on order of 230s (or a replacement). A round trip time of just under 3 hours means you'd need six units in service, with only five ordered so far.

If such a service were TfW then I would go for Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool loop - Bidston - Neston then reverse. That said, I think it would interfere with the next half-hourly Wrexham so I suggest reversal at Shotton to give a 15 minute frequency between Shotton and Bidston or liverpool and 30 between Shotton and Wrexham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham comes off, there'll be a small follow-on order of 230s (or a replacement). A round trip time of just under 3 hours means you'd need six units in service, with only five ordered so far.

I'd say Merseyrail-spec FLIRTs with a diesel power module. I just can't see them allowing anything else into the tunnels - it would, as I mentioned on the other thread, cause issues such as preventing the future implementation of platform edge doors, something which would be a significant benefit as the network gets busier.